Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry

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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#201 » by GooniesNeverDie » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:09 am

ajones9219 wrote:right now? Kemba pretty safely
Klow is the best player on the team with the 3rd best record in the league.. it's a great debate and definitely not as easy as you're trying to make it sound

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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#202 » by ajones9219 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:42 am

GooniesNeverDie wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:right now? Kemba pretty safely
Klow is the best player on the team with the 3rd best record in the league.. it's a great debate and definitely not as easy as you're trying to make it sound

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no hate on Lowry. In fact id argue Lowry is better for the Raps build and Kemba is better for Bostons roster
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#203 » by YogurtProducer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:16 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
Jables wrote:Individual accolades are a direct result of team success, so you could do that but you'd know it's a cheap way of looking at players.

The revisionism of how Lowry was beginning to be looked at before you know who joined for a 1 year stint boggles my mind.


No, the issue is people underrated him for years. That’s not my fault, that’s other peoples faults for not truly watching or caring about the Raptors pre-Kawhi. Hell, you still see people saying Demar was the best player when in reality it wasn’t even **** close.


He was not underrated. People were judging him for the role he was playing on those pre-2019 teams. A lot of the criticism was warranted. Lowry is perfect in a kind of role like the one he played last year and the one he’s been playing this year so far.

Well considering his role last year and this year are incredibly different, and his role this year is incredibly similar to the one he played pre-Kawhi, this is an incredibly strange statement.

Lowry was, at worst, a top 20 player in the league for his entire tenure in TO except his first year. No one here would actually say that is accurate, but if you actually followed the Raptors you’d know he’s the only reason they were relevant for many years. He propels a lot of guys to higher standards and is massively overrated.

In his prime he was incredible, and tbh he wasted it beside guys like Demar/Carroll/Patterson/Valanciunas. A solid team, but he was easily on a tier above all of them.

If Lowry was fortunate enough to be a teammate I’d say, LBJ, he would be absolutely adored and people would appreciate him a lot more. The perfect #2 ball handler for a championship team
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#204 » by YogurtProducer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:17 pm

ajones9219 wrote:
GooniesNeverDie wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:right now? Kemba pretty safely
Klow is the best player on the team with the 3rd best record in the league.. it's a great debate and definitely not as easy as you're trying to make it sound

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no hate on Lowry. In fact id argue Lowry is better for the Raps build and Kemba is better for Bostons roster

And you’d be wrong. Lowry an elite PG defender, great spacer, and great off ball who also can rack up assists when on ball. He would be terrific beside Tatum/Brown/Hayward
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#205 » by PistolPeteJR » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:24 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
No, the issue is people underrated him for years. That’s not my fault, that’s other peoples faults for not truly watching or caring about the Raptors pre-Kawhi. Hell, you still see people saying Demar was the best player when in reality it wasn’t even **** close.


He was not underrated. People were judging him for the role he was playing on those pre-2019 teams. A lot of the criticism was warranted. Lowry is perfect in a kind of role like the one he played last year and the one he’s been playing this year so far.

Well considering his role last year and this year are incredibly different, and his role this year is incredibly similar to the one he played pre-Kawhi, this is an incredibly strange statement.

Lowry was, at worst, a top 20 player in the league for his entire tenure in TO except his first year. No one here would actually say that is accurate, but if you actually followed the Raptors you’d know he’s the only reason they were relevant for many years. He propels a lot of guys to higher standards and is massively overrated.

In his prime he was incredible, and tbh he wasted it beside guys like Demar/Carroll/Patterson/Valanciunas. A solid team, but he was easily on a tier above all of them.

If Lowry was fortunate enough to be a teammate I’d say, LBJ, he would be absolutely adored and people would appreciate him a lot more. The perfect #2 ball handler for a championship team


Sorry, I don’t agree. His role this year has been more similar to last year to me. A true second-fiddle on a team with a clear #1 star in Siakam and a very strong supporting cast. Pre-Kawhi, him and DeRozan would clearly interchange between who’s alpha. It would primarily be DeRozan, but Lowry had to take over that role many times because DeRozan also wasn’t a true #1.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#206 » by ajones9219 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:25 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:
GooniesNeverDie wrote:Klow is the best player on the team with the 3rd best record in the league.. it's a great debate and definitely not as easy as you're trying to make it sound

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no hate on Lowry. In fact id argue Lowry is better for the Raps build and Kemba is better for Bostons roster

And you’d be wrong. Lowry an elite PG defender, great spacer, and great off ball who also can rack up assists when on ball. He would be terrific beside Tatum/Brown/Hayward


Disagree. Celtics value his offense more than defense. Boston is stacked to the brim with defenders and playmakers. His scoring punch is more valuable to that team. Thats even before factoring his age or leadership. Besides lowry averages less than an assist and 0.1 steals more per game for their career. Its not some night or day difference. Kemba has been a great defender this year
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#207 » by Par36 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:28 pm

Jcool0 wrote:Kemba is clearly the better player. But Toronto fans are loyal so this thread exists.



You're wrong. :nod:
Next 2-3 years could be a different story, but right now it's pretty clear cut- Lowry.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#208 » by Duffman100 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:34 pm

Par36 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Kemba is clearly the better player. But Toronto fans are loyal so this thread exists.



You're wrong. :nod:
Next 2-3 years could be a different story, but right now it's pretty clear cut- Lowry.


I'm just waiting for someone to actually post WHY Kemba is better, which hasn't been done. Evidence has been given for the argument for Lowry, not quite for Kemba.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#209 » by Curmudgeon » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:35 pm

I think Lowry is the better all around player, but not by a mile, and if you were picking between the two for a roster you would probably take the younger player.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#210 » by JN61 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:38 pm

Walker to me. And prior to Leonard carrying Raptors nobody thought otherwise. Lowry was heavily looked as someone who would repeatedly choke in playoffs with DeRozan
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#211 » by Sixerscan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:26 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
docholliday99 wrote:
I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant - though maybe I am missing your point completely.


Lowry might have better stats if he was slumming it on the Hornets and running 75 high pick and rolls a game.


That doesn’t make an ounce of sense. He would have far less open looks and prob would be slumming it much more on defense. Walker has been the more efficient shooter from mid/three the past decade despite having far less drawing attention away from him.


Then why are Kemba's numbers worse this year? Why did Ray Allen, Chris Bosh and Kevin Love all have worse statistical years when they joined super teams?

Heck the Hornets just plugged Devonte' Graham into Kemba's role this year and he's putting up reasonably decent numbers. Remember that Tyreke Evans year a couple seasons back? People overestimate how difficult it is to put up numbers on bad teams.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#212 » by nikster » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:46 pm

ajones9219 wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:
no hate on Lowry. In fact id argue Lowry is better for the Raps build and Kemba is better for Bostons roster

And you’d be wrong. Lowry an elite PG defender, great spacer, and great off ball who also can rack up assists when on ball. He would be terrific beside Tatum/Brown/Hayward


Disagree. Celtics value his offense more than defense. Boston is stacked to the brim with defenders and playmakers. His scoring punch is more valuable to that team. Thats even before factoring his age or leadership. Besides lowry averages less than an assist and 0.1 steals more per game. Its not some night or day difference. Kemba has been a great defender this year

Lowry is averaging 2.8 more assists per game this year. NBA.com shows Lowry creating 19 ppg off assists (top 8 in the league), Kemba with 12.4. Secondary assists and potential assists favour lowry as well

Why would Kembas slightly better scoring be more valuable to a Boston team that has 2 other 20+ ppg scorers and Gordon Hayward.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#213 » by VanWest82 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:52 pm

They're at slightly different points in their careers. Kemba still has a little juice left in his legs, Lowry doesn't. If I really needed scoring I'd go Walker, otherwise Lowry. I'd also way rather have 16-18 Lowry than 18-20 Kemba.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#214 » by dennythedino » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:58 pm

I like both, but Lowry is the better all-around player.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#215 » by BBallG » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:06 pm

Raptors have basically been a 50 win team since Lowry joined and he's the major reason why. He isn't flashy, but dude does many things to simply win.

I love Kemba, but until he proves himself the results speak for themselves.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#216 » by bongmarley » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:24 pm

JN61 wrote:Walker to me. And prior to Leonard carrying Raptors nobody thought otherwise. Lowry was heavily looked as someone who would repeatedly choke in playoffs with DeRozan


Kemba has NEVER won a playoff series ever. Hard to be a playoff choker if you never make the playoffs
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#217 » by YogurtProducer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:27 pm

ajones9219 wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:
no hate on Lowry. In fact id argue Lowry is better for the Raps build and Kemba is better for Bostons roster

And you’d be wrong. Lowry an elite PG defender, great spacer, and great off ball who also can rack up assists when on ball. He would be terrific beside Tatum/Brown/Hayward


Disagree. Celtics value his offense more than defense. Boston is stacked to the brim with defenders and playmakers. His scoring punch is more valuable to that team. Thats even before factoring his age or leadership. Besides lowry averages less than an assist and 0.1 steals more per game. Its not some night or day difference. Kemba has been a great defender this year


You can’t even correctly post stats. Why should we take you seriously
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#218 » by ajones9219 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:30 pm

nikster wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:And you’d be wrong. Lowry an elite PG defender, great spacer, and great off ball who also can rack up assists when on ball. He would be terrific beside Tatum/Brown/Hayward


Disagree. Celtics value his offense more than defense. Boston is stacked to the brim with defenders and playmakers. His scoring punch is more valuable to that team. Thats even before factoring his age or leadership. Besides lowry averages less than an assist and 0.1 steals more per game. Its not some night or day difference. Kemba has been a great defender this year

Lowry is averaging 2.8 more assists per game this year. NBA.com shows Lowry creating 19 ppg off assists (top 8 in the league), Kemba with 12.4. Secondary assists and potential assists favour lowry as well

Why would Kembas slightly better scoring be more valuable to a Boston team that has 2 other 20+ ppg scorers and Gordon Hayward.


Do to the shallow bench scoring. The bench is full of defensive players and playmakers. The team needs pure scoring at all times on the floor. And sorry I meant for their career but yes Lowry averages 2 more assists this year.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#219 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:33 pm

BBallG wrote:Raptors have basically been a 50 win team since Lowry joined and he's the major reason why. He isn't flashy, but dude does many things to simply win.

I love Kemba, but until he proves himself the results speak for themselves.
I mean if Kemba Walker was on that team wouldn't he be a major reason why also?


The Raptors have always been a good regular season team and it's probably because they have had incredible depth for many years. Depth = good RS record. Not to say that Lowry isn't incredible in the regular season, but a lot of all-star players could get 50 wins on the Raptors (not DeMar though cause he cheeks and was carried).


I really think Lowry vs Kemba is not that interesting of a debate, outside of Celtics homers it should be obvious that Lowry is better. But bringing up team based accolades really makes no sense - the Hornets are arguably the worst ran franchise in the NBA....of all time no less.

That is a huge deal, even if Kareem Abdul Jabar was on the Hornets there would be seasons where they wouldn't make the playoffs - to put things in perspective. GM's are the most impactful reason for why teams do well in the regular season, not all-star players (bar some exceptions from players far above the level of either Lowry or Walker).
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#220 » by nikster » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:04 pm

ajones9219 wrote:
nikster wrote:
ajones9219 wrote:
Disagree. Celtics value his offense more than defense. Boston is stacked to the brim with defenders and playmakers. His scoring punch is more valuable to that team. Thats even before factoring his age or leadership. Besides lowry averages less than an assist and 0.1 steals more per game. Its not some night or day difference. Kemba has been a great defender this year

Lowry is averaging 2.8 more assists per game this year. NBA.com shows Lowry creating 19 ppg off assists (top 8 in the league), Kemba with 12.4. Secondary assists and potential assists favour lowry as well

Why would Kembas slightly better scoring be more valuable to a Boston team that has 2 other 20+ ppg scorers and Gordon Hayward.


Do to the shallow bench scoring. The bench is full of defensive players and playmakers. The team needs pure scoring at all times on the floor. And sorry I meant for their career but yes Lowry averages 2 more assists this year.

Yea but the difference in scoring is like 2 used possessions per game. Don't see how Lowry couldn't take 2 more shots a game in the Celtics system

Career difference is small due to Lowry being a late bloomer and small role early in his career. Last 5 seasons, or per 36 for career have Lowry ahead about 2 assists.

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