Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry

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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#241 » by celticfan42487 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 3:28 am

Is Kyle Lowry really the greatest Raptor of all time?

When it comes to impact on the game of basketball I'd go with Vince.

When it comes to putting the franchise on the map I'd go with either Vince, Bosh, or Kawhi over him.

I understand he wasn't traded like Derozen was but like... idk.

When I think of the Raptors I still think of Air Canada and Vince Carter. Hell The Ringer brought up recently there was a year Vince lead the league in all-star votes, in a league with Michael Jordan still playing and he was all Raptors during that time.

I think Vince was the closest maybe to winning a regular season MVP for them (admittedly that would have been media hype but see Dirk and Nash's MVPs to see how that is often enough to win it) and Kawhi is the one who won the Finals MVP.

Idk, I just don't think it's clear cut. And I get that Vince left later in not the best of ways but man, as time goes on his impact on the game of basketball as a Raptor was so great not just in Canada but all over the world. That was probably the only time the Raptors were unanimous must see TV in the same way maybe the 72 win Warriors were. Not every year there is a must watch team in the league, and Carter's Raptors were for multiple seasons in a row.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#242 » by YogurtProducer » Wed Jul 1, 2020 4:13 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
BBallG wrote:Raptors have basically been a 50 win team since Lowry joined and he's the major reason why. He isn't flashy, but dude does many things to simply win.

I love Kemba, but until he proves himself the results speak for themselves.
I mean if Kemba Walker was on that team wouldn't he be a major reason why also?


The Raptors have always been a good regular season team and it's probably because they have had incredible depth for many years. Depth = good RS record. Not to say that Lowry isn't incredible in the regular season, but a lot of all-star players could get 50 wins on the Raptors (not DeMar though cause he cheeks and was carried).


I really think Lowry vs Kemba is not that interesting of a debate, outside of Celtics homers it should be obvious that Lowry is better. But bringing up team based accolades really makes no sense - the Hornets are arguably the worst ran franchise in the NBA....of all time no less.

That is a huge deal, even if Kareem Abdul Jabar was on the Hornets there would be seasons where they wouldn't make the playoffs - to put things in perspective. GM's are the most impactful reason for why teams do well in the regular season, not all-star players (bar some exceptions from players far above the level of either Lowry or Walker).

You can’t just say “wouldn’t [insert player] be a major reason also” because the answer is simply no.

The raptors have had good depth, but Lowry has been a primary reason they’ve been so good.

We made an ECF starting Lowry/Demar/Carroll/Scola/Val with no real bench punch outside T-Ross. Lowry/Kawhi/ and now Siakam have been the only real all star players (Demar simply wasn’t), and the raptors have still managed to win 50+ games for years. Lowry is a big reason why. There’s nothing to suggest Kemba would have that same success because he doesn’t bring the same things to the table.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#243 » by YogurtProducer » Wed Jul 1, 2020 4:14 am

celticfan42487 wrote:Is Kyle Lowry really the greatest Raptor of all time?

When it comes to impact on the game of basketball I'd go with Vince.

When it comes to putting the franchise on the map I'd go with either Vince, Bosh, or Kawhi over him.

I understand he wasn't traded like Derozen was but like... idk.

When I think of the Raptors I still think of Air Canada and Vince Carter. Hell The Ringer brought up recently there was a year Vince lead the league in all-star votes, in a league with Michael Jordan still playing and he was all Raptors during that time.

I think Vince was the closest maybe to winning a regular season MVP for them (admittedly that would have been media hype but see Dirk and Nash's MVPs to see how that is often enough to win it) and Kawhi is the one who won the Finals MVP.

Idk, I just don't think it's clear cut. And I get that Vince left later in not the best of ways but man, as time goes on his impact on the game of basketball as a Raptor was so great not just in Canada but all over the world. That was probably the only time the Raptors were unanimous must see TV in the same way maybe the 72 win Warriors were. Not every year there is a must watch team in the league, and Carter's Raptors were for multiple seasons in a row.

Lowry > VC and it’s not even close. Replace VC with a same impact guy who doesn’t dunk and you’re not watching the early 2000’s Raptors.
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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#244 » by And1+2 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 11:36 am

jaybiddyforeal wrote:
Spoiler:
It is Kyle Lowry and it's not even close. Literally EVERY single thing you can possibly think of points to Lowry...



Over the course of their careers, per 100 possessions, look at who leads who:

Lowry wins:
FG%, 2PT %, 3PT %, OREB, DREB, TREB, AST, STL, ORtg, DRtg, TS%, FTr%, ORB%, DREB%, TREB%, AST%, STL%, OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, DBPM, BPM, VORP

Kemba wins:
PTS, FT%., BLK, TO, BLK%, TO%,



Looking even further into the few stats where Kemba beats Lowry:

- The NBA didn't start regularly crediting blocks below the waist until about 2012. I know because it would drive me nuts that those plays wouldn't even be recorded in the play by play. It was like they never happened. That's about 7 years of possession data that inherently puts Lowry at a disadvantage for blocks per possession and BLK % and he STILL almost beat Kemba in both those categories (difference of less than .1 and .3 respectively).

- Kemba outscores Lowry by about 6 points 100 possession despite have a usage percentage almost 6 points higher then Lowry. Despite a usage rate almost 6 percentage points (or almost 30%) higher then Lowry, the only offensive category Kemba is better at total points scored which is obvious for a player using that many more possessions.

- Kemba turns the balls over less and hits free throws at a marginally higher % then Lowry which are both a credit to Kemba. However, Kyle gets to the line at a significantly higher rate and posts a fairly higher AST/TO ratio showing again he is the overall better player when all things are factored in.

So Kemba Walker's best skill is his offense and Lowry is a better offensive player then him is basically every single offensive category you can possible imagine...




Moving on to defense....

Kyle Lowry might be the best charge taker and best overall defender in NBA history for someone 6 feet or under. This year, Lowry guards opposing power forwards as often as he guards opposing point guards (about 18% of the time each). Think about that for a second... a severely undersized point guard spends as much time guarding power forwards as he does opposing point guards. Oh yeah and he is holding opponents to 43% from the field (league average is 46%) when he is the primary defender despite guarding players taller than him on over 99% of his defensive possessions.

Lest you forget he stopped a Joel Embiid post up touch less than 10 feet from the basket on the final possession on their game 7 victory over Philly. He also should have sealed the NBA Finals game 6 with a charge drawn on DeMarcus Cousins with about 1:30 left but the refs incorrectly called a blocking foul when it was a blatant charge. Centers legit cannot score on one of the 10 smallest players in the NBA with any sort of efficiency despite being a foot taller and 80 pounds heavier.

Kemba is a marginal defender whose best attribute is his ability to draw charges. Just like Kemba's perceived offensive greatness, Kemba's best defensive feature is SO inferior to Lowry doing the same thing. And Lowry is again significantly better then Kemba in every facet of defense both traditionally and on advanced hustle stats. Lowry also dominates the eye test as a superior team defender because he is never in a mismatch and is A+ help defender from the weak side because of his ability to take charges but also to recover to the perimeter to closeout on shooters and drive them off the 3 point line.




Moving on to the playoffs....

I can't believe I even have to type this out but again, look at every single stat, every one... Kyle > Walker outside of points scored but Kyle is head and shoulders more efficient. Plus Kyle did that whole win a championship as the 2nd best player on the team thing. And go watch game 6 of the NBA Finals in case you forgot what happened there...

Kyle Lowry led the Raptors to two conference semis, game 6 of the conference finals, and an NBA championship in the past 4 years (ok, Ill concede, Kawhi did the "leading" for the Larry OB run). In those four years, the only player in the NBA that was able to defeat Kyle was LeBron James.

Speaking of LeBron James, he is second on the list of clutch performers in the NBA playoffs in the past five years with 11 made buckets in the final 2 minutes of a one possession game. Who is 1st you might ask? That would be Kyle Lowry with 14. And if that isn't enough for you, go look at the shooting percentages for those situations. Lowry is shooting over 65% in those situations. C-L-U-T-C-H

Kemba walker has played in 11 total playoff games.




Moving on to team success...

If you haven't watch the NBA for the past 7 years, Kyle Lowry has been the best player on his team since 2013. He has led the Raptors to 48, 49, 56, 51, 59, 58, and 59 (projected before shutdown) wins seasons and 7 straight Atlantic division titles (barring a collapse in Orlando next month). The only year he wasn't the best player on the team was in 2018-19 and he still led the team to a BETTER record when Kawhi Leonard did not play.

They have the 3rd most wins in the NBA playoffs since 2013 (Cavaliers, Warriors), and 2nd most since 2015 (Warriors).

Again, Kemba Walker has played in 11 career playoff games. And it has only taken a .500 record to make it to the playoffs in the east over the span of his career.





Moving on to intangibles....

Lowry is always in the top three for the smartest player in the NBA voting with Chris Paul and LeBron James. Legendary coach Jay Wright called Lowry the smartest player hes ever coached by far, and 2x NBA executive of the year and best GM in the NBA Masai Ujiri has called Lowry the heart and soul, lead by example, absolute unquestioned leader of the "We The North" era.

I don't hear anybody saying things like that about Kemba Walker...




If you want to argue all this and that about how Kemba played on bad teams for the first 6 years of his career thats all fine and dandy. Because then I get to argue that Kyle Lowry may have played with a worse supporting cast for the first six years of his career. Seriously, go look at the players Lowry shared the floor with in Memphis. Houston wasn't anywhere close to as bad as Kemba's Hornets teams but the bench unit that Lowry rolled with in Memphis might have been the sorriest group of NBA players on Earth (apologies to darko, tarance kinsey, hakim warrick, brian cardinal, stromile swift, casey jacobsen, juan carlos navarro, kwame brown, javaris crittenton, and the rest of those guys that were so bad I cant even remember their existence).


When it is all said and done Lowry is likely to be a 7-8 time all-star (despite getting absolutely hosed in 13-14 for Joe Johnson who was averaging 14/3/3), 2 time all-nba, 2nd best player on an NBA champion, statistically one of the most clutch players in playoff history, posted a near triple double in the closeout game of the NBA Finals against one of the best dynasties in the history of the game, an Olympic gold medalist (possibly twice), likely top 15 in career three pointers made, top 15 in career assists, top 30-40 in career steals, the best player in the history of his franchise, the best player ever listed at 6'0" or under (for the millionth time Chris Paul is better, he is also 6'1"), the GOAT charger taker, and who knows what else. He did all this despite not being a starter for the first 7 years of his career and playing in the greatest era for guards in the history of the NBA.

If anyone wants to make a fool of themselves by trying to make a case for Kemba Walker, you go right ahead.

KLOE



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Re: Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry 

Post#245 » by Birth of the Cool » Wed Jul 1, 2020 11:50 am

Lowry. Kemba may be the more skilled, talented offensive player but Lowry is no slouch there either. If you were talking offense only I can see a valid argument for Kemba I suppose in a one-on-one scenario but if you're talking true point guard play on offense I'd still take Lowry. Now you add that Lowry is the superior defensive player, the guy with the better motor, the guy with better leadership skills and it's not even close.

It's actually amazing how much Lowry has grown since joining the Raptors. The fact that he can arguably be called the GOAT Raptor is remarkable considering early in his Raptors days he was doubted by both management and fans and all these years later he was one of the top 3 guys on the team to lead them to their very first championship.

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