Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen?

Moderators: bwgood77, ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, jamaalstar21, zimpy27, BombsquadSammy, GeorgeMarcus, Goudelock, Prez

Hook_Em
Pro Prospect
Posts: 770
And1: 368
Joined: Feb 19, 2012

Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#1 » by Hook_Em » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:32 am

After rewatching the “food poisoning” game in 97’ and the injured back game in 98’ why didn’t they make a point to go at both guys offensively? In the Last Dance Jerry Sloan said he didn’t even know MJ was sick. Was it a respect thing?
CIN-C-STAR
Analyst
Posts: 3,099
And1: 6,193
Joined: Dec 17, 2017

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled a Pippen? 

Post#2 » by CIN-C-STAR » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:42 am

Haven't ever heard this discussed but the Jazz were very much an identity team. That Stockton-Malone PnR was who they were on offense, so taking them out of that to attack MJ, who could be hidden pretty well, would be really bold and risky.
And remember they didn't know MJ was gonna be sick either, so it's not like they had an "attack MJ on offense" plan up their sleeves just in case he got food poisoning. MJ was still a pretty solid defender even at that stage of his career.
But I do think involving MJ in the screening action before Malone got there for a second screen, or maybe MJ's man screening the screener, could have been effective in at least draining some of MJ's energy.
"I'd rather have Kevin Love spacing out to the three point line than anything (Karl) Malone brings"
:lol: :lol: :lol:
DaFan334
Analyst
Posts: 3,190
And1: 516
Joined: Jul 21, 2006

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#3 » by DaFan334 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:15 am

Jeff Hornacek and Bryon Russell at that point in time weren't really that capable of "attacking" either to the point where they could dominate the game.
Image
Jonny Blaze
Starter
Posts: 2,363
And1: 1,043
Joined: Jun 20, 2011

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#4 » by Jonny Blaze » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:16 am

John Stockton was not an elite scorer.

John Stockton is canonized by the American Media, but its always been my assertion that if the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score 25- 30 points a game ala Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Steph Curry they would have had the offensive fire power to be able to defeat the Bulls.

The Utah Jazz did not have enough offensive fire power outside of Karl Malone to be able to put complete offensive pressure on the Bulls.
It's one of the biggest reasons they never won a title.
G35
RealGM
Posts: 19,835
And1: 5,434
Joined: Dec 10, 2005
     

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#5 » by G35 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:29 am

Jonny Blaze wrote:John Stockton was not an elite scorer.

John Stockton is canonized by the American Media, but its always been my assertion that if the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score 25- 30 points a game ala Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Steph Curry they would have had the offensive fire power to be able to defeat the Bulls.

The Utah Jazz did not have enough offensive fire power outside of Karl Malone to be able to put complete offensive pressure on the Bulls.
It's one of the biggest reasons they never won a title.



Steve Nash and Chris Paul have never been to the finals and they had more talent on their teams than the Jazz.

Curry and Isiah had some of the deepest teams ever, whereas the Jazz were pretty much a 1,2 punch with a little bit of Hornacek mixed in.

The Jazz overachieved imo, compared to the talent of most title winning teams. They were a very good defensive team and a lot of that was due to the identity of Jerry Sloan, Malone and Stockton.....
I'm so tired of the typical......
User avatar
jason bourne
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,646
And1: 1,257
Joined: Dec 23, 2013
   

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#6 » by jason bourne » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:48 am

It's hard to criticize the Jazz because they had a great team, but they were more the finesse team in those series. Maybe Stockton had the ball in his hand too often. It was Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and even Coach Phil Jackson who was the attacking team even though the Bulls were at a so-called disadvantage. While the Jazz were a strong team, it was the Bulls who were more of a tough and rugged team. Maybe they did have an aura of refuse to lose with Jordan being so clutch at the right moments. They had put together a great team. Rising to the occasion despite being down or hurt is what makes Michael Jordan such a great player and GOAT player during that time.
Image

“The most contrarian thing of all is not to oppose the crowd but to think for yourself.”
o0dong
Sophomore
Posts: 203
And1: 161
Joined: May 27, 2007

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#7 » by o0dong » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:31 am

Jerry Sloan was known to not adjust in game and stick to the plan, which to be fair to him worked considering the regular season success that his Jazz team's had. It also likely contributed to the Jazz team being known as chokers in the late 80s and early 90s where they would regularly lose to lower seeded teams.
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 42,272
And1: 13,294
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#8 » by 76ciology » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:36 am

Attack MJ or Pippen with whom?

Hornacek and Byron Russell?

Jazz second best scorer was a 14ppg guy. While Stockton averages only 12ppg.
“Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there is absolutely no point.”
lambchop
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,887
And1: 5,600
Joined: May 14, 2014

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#9 » by lambchop » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:46 am

No perimeter player on that team was capable of dominating the game 1 on 1 or playing guys off the floor.
Buckets22
Junior
Posts: 279
And1: 259
Joined: Oct 08, 2019
   

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#10 » by Buckets22 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 am

Because the Jazz had the flexibility of a rock.
No Kyrie and Love injuries - no ring for Draymond, no Durant - no rings for Draymond.

This should be chiseled on the basketball Mount Rushmore.
ATRAIN53
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,945
And1: 1,503
Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Location: Chicago

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#11 » by ATRAIN53 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 pm

They did-

It still wasn't enough.

You gotta remember what fueled MJ -
Russel sealed the Jazz fate when he smack talked a retired MJ who just came by to say HI when the Jazz were practicing in Chicago-

"When I was playing baseball, Utah was in town to play the Bulls," Jordan recounts. "They're practicing at the facility and I go over to say hi to John and Karl. And this kid, Bryon Russell, comes up to me and says 'Man, why you quit? Why you quit? You knew I could guard your ass. You had to quit.'

"I said, 'Karl, you need to talk to this dude' [Karl responds] 'Ah, he's just a young rookie.' But from that point on, he's been on my list."
User avatar
TheFinishSniper
Veteran
Posts: 2,929
And1: 2,327
Joined: Feb 02, 2018
Location: Earth
   

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#12 » by TheFinishSniper » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:47 pm

Bulls never played with mentality of overrated team. They were always underdog and that's due MJ mentality. Regardless how good they were, even though they knew they were better team they played with such mentality. It's hard to attack someone who is already attacking you.

And exactly because Pippen was cripped MJ took it on his own not to lose series. And MJ exactly because he is sick, or he believed to be food poisoned took in on himself with extra motivation not to lose.
“If you were grading rebuilds and dropped in on the United Center on Wednesday night, you saw one team flying up the court, launching 3-pointers, sharing the ball and generally looking like it was having a lot of fun. And then you saw the Bulls.”
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 8,638
And1: 4,382
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#13 » by HotelVitale » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:55 pm

TheFinishSniper wrote:Bulls never played with mentality of overrated team. They were always underdog and that's due MJ mentality. Regardless how good they were, even though they knew they are better team they played with such mentality. It's hard to attack someone who is already attacking you.


Just read this three times, can't make any sense of it. 'Attacking a weak spot' isn't a mentality, it's a specific action against a specific person. If I'm guarding Damian Lillard it's not going to matter how resilient I am or how much eye of the tiger I have, I just can't keep up with him. And if you're an athletic driving wing, you're going to be able to break down JJ Redick if you have some space, even though he's trying ridiculously hard (like 99% of NBA players do in the playoffs). Not everything is some pep talk or morality play, that's rarely the reason why one team wins and the other loses at the highest level.
Jonny Blaze
Starter
Posts: 2,363
And1: 1,043
Joined: Jun 20, 2011

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#14 » by Jonny Blaze » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 pm

G35 wrote:
Jonny Blaze wrote:John Stockton was not an elite scorer.

John Stockton is canonized by the American Media, but its always been my assertion that if the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score 25- 30 points a game ala Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Steph Curry they would have had the offensive fire power to be able to defeat the Bulls.

The Utah Jazz did not have enough offensive fire power outside of Karl Malone to be able to put complete offensive pressure on the Bulls.
It's one of the biggest reasons they never won a title.



Steve Nash and Chris Paul have never been to the finals and they had more talent on their teams than the Jazz.

Curry and Isiah had some of the deepest teams ever, whereas the Jazz were pretty much a 1,2 punch with a little bit of Hornacek mixed in.

The Jazz overachieved imo, compared to the talent of most title winning teams. They were a very good defensive team and a lot of that was due to the identity of Jerry Sloan, Malone and Stockton.....


John Stockton averaged 9.5 points in the 1998 Finals.

Its my assertion that if the Jazz had a point guard that could score they could have beaten the Bulls in a rather close series.
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 8,638
And1: 4,382
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#15 » by HotelVitale » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:08 pm

Jonny Blaze wrote:John Stockton was not an elite scorer. John Stockton is canonized by the American Media, but its always been my assertion that if the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score 25- 30 points a game ala Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Steph Curry they would have had the offensive fire power to be able to defeat the Bulls.


I get where you're trying to go but if Stockton stopped playing PO games at age 35, his career playoff scoring average would be pretty similar to Nash's (both around 16-17 ppg). And it looks like Nash scored 30 pts in a game a handful of times in 120+ playoff games. Stockton was 40 those last couple years, can't knock him down for no longer being able to score at high rates.

Also Stockton is canonized by the American media because he was an absurdly good NBA point who ran some of the best NBA offenses for like 20 years straight, while playing tough defense. He's not 'overrated' because there's one thing you wish he could've done better.
Jonny Blaze
Starter
Posts: 2,363
And1: 1,043
Joined: Jun 20, 2011

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#16 » by Jonny Blaze » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Jonny Blaze wrote:John Stockton was not an elite scorer. John Stockton is canonized by the American Media, but its always been my assertion that if the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score 25- 30 points a game ala Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Steph Curry they would have had the offensive fire power to be able to defeat the Bulls.


I get where you're trying to go but if Stockton stopped playing PO games at age 35, his career playoff scoring average would be pretty similar to Nash's (both around 16-17 ppg). And it looks like Nash scored 30 pts in a game a handful of times in 120+ playoff games.

Also Stockton is canonized by the American media because he was an absurdly good NBA point who ran some of the best NBA offenses for like 20 years straight, while playing tough defense. He's not 'overrated' because there's one thing you wish he could've done better.


If John Stockton was talented enough (hint...he was not) to do what Steve Nash did against Dallas in the 2005 playoffs the jazz would have been able to beat the Bulls in 1997 and 1998.

What about all the other years the Jazz were in the playoffs? They regularly fell short in the post season because their second best player was just an okay scoring threat.

The reason the Jazz never won an NBA title was that John Stockton couldn't create his own shot, and was not an elite scorer.
There is a youtube video by I think a guy named Rustybuckets where he states an assertion that I've agreed with for over 30 years.....which is that pass first point guards (that can't score) are generally overrated.

The point guards that have won multiple titles(Magic, Curry, Isaiah) are the ones that are great scorers....that can also pass the rock and facilitate an offense. Not the other way around.

If John Stockton didn't play with Karl Malone no one would have ever heard of him. He would be Mark Price...and Price was a great player back in the day.

and look before all the Stockton lovers jump me....he was a very good player. Im not taking that away from him. But when I see Stockton ranked as a top 20 or top 30 player of all time? Laughable.


User avatar
TheFinishSniper
Veteran
Posts: 2,929
And1: 2,327
Joined: Feb 02, 2018
Location: Earth
   

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#17 » by TheFinishSniper » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:26 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
TheFinishSniper wrote:Bulls never played with mentality of overrated team. They were always underdog and that's due MJ mentality. Regardless how good they were, even though they knew they are better team they played with such mentality. It's hard to attack someone who is already attacking you.


Just read this three times, can't make any sense of it. 'Attacking a weak spot' isn't a mentality, it's a specific action against a specific person. If I'm guarding Damian Lillard it's not going to matter how resilient I am or how much eye of the tiger I have, I just can't keep up with him. And if you're an athletic driving wing, you're going to be able to break down JJ Redick if you have some space, even though he's trying ridiculously hard (like 99% of NBA players do in the playoffs). Not everything is some pep talk or morality play, that's rarely the reason why one team wins and the other loses at the highest level.

Bulls had greatest ever attacking player this planet ever had in basketball. Many in league during 90's played and were scared pissing of MJ in general. Jazz werent taking anything for granted and tried basically not to fuel MJ. To a point that even during documentary MJ himself said that just presence of Scottie on court was huge for mind games in that series. Maybe Jazz realized or didnt realize Scottie was hurt badly, but they werent taking any chances. Jazz played their own game, played their own way and at the end lost.


You need to take this circumstances into your argument. Who cares for some Damien Lillard guy level brat player when is literal basketball God on other side on court basically willing to do you any seconds now. You guys still 22 years later dont understand how great MJ was.
“If you were grading rebuilds and dropped in on the United Center on Wednesday night, you saw one team flying up the court, launching 3-pointers, sharing the ball and generally looking like it was having a lot of fun. And then you saw the Bulls.”
Jonny Blaze
Starter
Posts: 2,363
And1: 1,043
Joined: Jun 20, 2011

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#18 » by Jonny Blaze » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:28 pm

G35 wrote:
Jonny Blaze wrote:John Stockton was not an elite scorer.

John Stockton is canonized by the American Media, but its always been my assertion that if the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score 25- 30 points a game ala Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Steph Curry they would have had the offensive fire power to be able to defeat the Bulls.

The Utah Jazz did not have enough offensive fire power outside of Karl Malone to be able to put complete offensive pressure on the Bulls.
It's one of the biggest reasons they never won a title.



Steve Nash and Chris Paul have never been to the finals and they had more talent on their teams than the Jazz.

Curry and Isiah had some of the deepest teams ever, whereas the Jazz were pretty much a 1,2 punch with a little bit of Hornacek mixed in.

The Jazz overachieved imo, compared to the talent of most title winning teams. They were a very good defensive team and a lot of that was due to the identity of Jerry Sloan, Malone and Stockton.....



If Karl Malone went down for the season do you think John Stockton could have led the Jazz to the Western Conference Finals or even won 50 games ala 2005-06 Steve Nash?

My assertion is no. I don't think the Jazz sniff the playoffs, or have a winning record without Karl Malone.
Triple7
Analyst
Posts: 3,001
And1: 1,891
Joined: Aug 23, 2018
 

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#19 » by Triple7 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:34 pm

Move on :lol:
User avatar
76ciology
RealGM
Posts: 42,272
And1: 13,294
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Contact:

Re: Why didn’t Utah attack “sick” MJ or crippled Pippen? 

Post#20 » by 76ciology » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:16 pm

JOHN STOCKTON AVERAGED 12PPG in the season they filmed “THE LAST DANCE”
“Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there is absolutely no point.”

Return to The General Board