Travis Schlenk needs to catch more flack.

[The_Hater]

The draft is not a math test. There is so much luck involved. No GM gets anything but an A grade when they come away with a 2nd year player averaging 30ppg plus another 1st round pick. As great as Luka is there is nothing wrong with what Atlanta came away with in the 2018 draft.

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

[marco102]

The draft is not a math test. There is so much luck involved. No GM gets anything but an A grade when they come away with a 2nd year player averaging 30ppg plus another 1st round pick. As great as Luka is there is nothing wrong with what Atlanta came away with in the 2018 draft.

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

Why are we acting like this is closed book though? This thread is entirely premature. If Trae Young's TEAM wins 3 championships and Luka' wins 2 with both putting up the numbers they are putting up, who would be considered the generational talent? It wouldn't just be Luka in that case.

I can't stand this argument that Luka's a generational talent and then people here cap Trae at an all star level. He's already a freaking all star his second year. What do you think will happen when he plays with better players, improves his defense?

There is a gap between Trae and Luka, but the gap isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Yes, this is coming from a biased Hawks fan, but most here thought Trae would be a bust and no matter what he does will always give whataboutisms.

[The_Hater]

The draft is not a math test. There is so much luck involved. No GM gets anything but an A grade when they come away with a 2nd year player averaging 30ppg plus another 1st round pick. As great as Luka is there is nothing wrong with what Atlanta came away with in the 2018 draft.

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

Why are we acting like this is closed book though? This thread is entirely premature. If Trae Young's TEAM wins 3 championships and Luka' wins 2 with both putting up the numbers they are putting up, who would be considered the generational talent? It wouldn't just be Luka in that case.

I can't stand this argument that Luka's a generational talent and then people here cap Trae at an all star level. He's already a freaking all star his second year. What do you think will happen when he plays with better players, improves his defense?

There is a gap between Trae and Luka, but the gap isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Yes, this is coming from a biased Hawks fan, but most here thought Trae would be a bust and no matter what he does will always give whataboutisms.

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

My biggest concern with Young becoming that guy is that he’s a really, really bad defensive player with poor physical tools and (apparently) no drive to play hard on that end. (I honestly can’t believe how little he tries on defense). The 2nd problem can be fixed but I think the Hawks will always be working around the 1st problem making it very difficult to put a top defensive team on the floor. Doncic isn’t exactly Scottie Pippen himself but his size, strength and instincts at least make him as a passable defender who doesn’t need to be constantly hidden and provided with help.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

[marco102]

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

Why are we acting like this is closed book though? This thread is entirely premature. If Trae Young's TEAM wins 3 championships and Luka' wins 2 with both putting up the numbers they are putting up, who would be considered the generational talent? It wouldn't just be Luka in that case.

I can't stand this argument that Luka's a generational talent and then people here cap Trae at an all star level. He's already a freaking all star his second year. What do you think will happen when he plays with better players, improves his defense?

There is a gap between Trae and Luka, but the gap isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Yes, this is coming from a biased Hawks fan, but most here thought Trae would be a bust and no matter what he does will always give whataboutisms.

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

My biggest concern with Young becoming that guy is that he’s a really, really bad defensive player with poor physical tools and (apparently) no drive to play hard on that end. (I honestly can’t believe how little he tries on defense). The 2nd problem can be fixed but I think the Hawks will always be working around the 1st problem making it very difficult to put a top defensive team on the floor. Doncic isn’t exactly Scottie Pippen himself but his size, strength and instincts at least make him as a passable defender who doesn’t need to be constantly hidden and provided with help.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

[Galloisdaman]

The draft is not a math test. There is so much luck involved. No GM gets anything but an A grade when they come away with a 2nd year player averaging 30ppg plus another 1st round pick. As great as Luka is there is nothing wrong with what Atlanta came away with in the 2018 draft.

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

I understand your point but the NBA draft is not a sure thing. Nobody can say for sure what they have until the players play in the NBA. Sometimes it takes years to figure out who had the best picks. That is why better players are drafted out of order every year. Curry was drafted 7th after Johnny Flynn, Ricky Rubio, Tyreek Evans, and Thabeet. That is the risk in the draft. If anyone knew for sure that Luka would be this good he would have been drafted #1 just like guys like Bird, Jordan, etc would have been drafted #1. Hindsight is 20-20 but the NBA draft is not.

[Buzzard]

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

Why are we acting like this is closed book though? This thread is entirely premature. If Trae Young's TEAM wins 3 championships and Luka' wins 2 with both putting up the numbers they are putting up, who would be considered the generational talent? It wouldn't just be Luka in that case.

I can't stand this argument that Luka's a generational talent and then people here cap Trae at an all star level. He's already a freaking all star his second year. What do you think will happen when he plays with better players, improves his defense?

There is a gap between Trae and Luka, but the gap isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Yes, this is coming from a biased Hawks fan, but most here thought Trae would be a bust and no matter what he does will always give whataboutisms.

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

John Stockton and Isiah Thomas are listed as exactly the same 6' 1" height as Trae. Trae still has plenty of time to add some muscle to his frame. By the time he is 25, I could see him weighing 190 without a lot of effort.

[themoneyteam2]

Statistically it doesn’t by any metric, but you’re entitled to your opinions even if they don’t accurately reflect reality.

Well one metric that does show it is his 114 ORtg and 117 DRtg.

And among point guards his ORPM at 6.66 is #2 among all PG's but his DRPM is -5.97 which is #95 among all point guards - dead last lol. Let that sink in. Behind Isaiah Thomas...

So his RPM of 0.70 (barely positive) ends up being #31 among all point guards despite his 2nd best offense. If that doesn't show much his defense drags him down as a complete player than idk what does.

But it is an improvement from his rookie year where he was #85 among point guards with a -2.00 RPM lol

I'll end your rant really quick. Are there 31 point guards in the NBA you'd take before Trae Young on your favorite team? If the answer to that is no, then your entire argument is a moot point. If it's yes, then list them.

Never said RPM is the end all be all. It just shows how his defense drags down his amazing offense. I'm saying all his advanced stats don't do him any favors. Do you think his defense weighs down his total impact? Yes or no?

Trae is 2nd best PG on offense and then worst on defense. You're telling me his defense doesn't minimize his impact?

I actually like Trae a lot. I'm a Celtics fan so supported IT when he was worst defender in the league so I know what you're going through trying to convince yourself his defense isn't that bad. Reality is IT's overall impact was dragged down due to his atrocious defense, even though he was putting up 30 PPG...

[The_Hater]

Why are we acting like this is closed book though? This thread is entirely premature. If Trae Young's TEAM wins 3 championships and Luka' wins 2 with both putting up the numbers they are putting up, who would be considered the generational talent? It wouldn't just be Luka in that case.

I can't stand this argument that Luka's a generational talent and then people here cap Trae at an all star level. He's already a freaking all star his second year. What do you think will happen when he plays with better players, improves his defense?

There is a gap between Trae and Luka, but the gap isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Yes, this is coming from a biased Hawks fan, but most here thought Trae would be a bust and no matter what he does will always give whataboutisms.

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

My biggest concern with Young becoming that guy is that he’s a really, really bad defensive player with poor physical tools and (apparently) no drive to play hard on that end. (I honestly can’t believe how little he tries on defense). The 2nd problem can be fixed but I think the Hawks will always be working around the 1st problem making it very difficult to put a top defensive team on the floor. Doncic isn’t exactly Scottie Pippen himself but his size, strength and instincts at least make him as a passable defender who doesn’t need to be constantly hidden and provided with help.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

Well statistically he’s terrible, right around the bottom of the league. He’s obviously small and physically weak which aren’t good defensive tools and I’ve seen first hand multiple times that his effort level is quite poor. He literally quits on any pick and gets bullied when switched onto a bigger player.

I realize that fans are quite often going to think more highly of their own players but the reason so many people think Young is terrible on defense is because he’s terrible in defense. Obviously things can change going forward but I’m skeptical myself.

[The_Hater]

The draft is not a math test. There is so much luck involved. No GM gets anything but an A grade when they come away with a 2nd year player averaging 30ppg plus another 1st round pick. As great as Luka is there is nothing wrong with what Atlanta came away with in the 2018 draft.

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

I understand your point but the NBA draft is not a sure thing. Nobody can say for sure what they have until the players play in the NBA. Sometimes it takes years to figure out who had the best picks. That is why better players are drafted out of order every year. Curry was drafted 7th after Johnny Flynn, Ricky Rubio, Tyreek Evans, and Thabeet. That is the risk in the draft. If anyone knew for sure that Luka would be this good he would have been drafted #1 just like guys like Bird, Jordan, etc would have been drafted #1. Hindsight is 20-20 but the NBA draft is not.

I agree that the NBA isn’t a sure thing, but there are scouts and GM’s who get paid a lot of money to make the right player evaluations and subsequently the right moves. Some of these people are very good at their jobs, some average and some quite poor. The only thing I’m certain about is that ‘it’s a crapshoot’ is not a viable excuse for making poor decisions and the guy who drafted Rubio and Flynn has been unemployed for years.

[marco102]

Well one metric that does show it is his 114 ORtg and 117 DRtg.

And among point guards his ORPM at 6.66 is #2 among all PG's but his DRPM is -5.97 which is #95 among all point guards - dead last lol. Let that sink in. Behind Isaiah Thomas...

So his RPM of 0.70 (barely positive) ends up being #31 among all point guards despite his 2nd best offense. If that doesn't show much his defense drags him down as a complete player than idk what does.

But it is an improvement from his rookie year where he was #85 among point guards with a -2.00 RPM lol

I'll end your rant really quick. Are there 31 point guards in the NBA you'd take before Trae Young on your favorite team? If the answer to that is no, then your entire argument is a moot point. If it's yes, then list them.

Never said RPM is the end all be all. It just shows how his defense drags down his amazing offense. I'm saying all his advanced stats don't do him any favors. Do you think his defense weighs down his total impact? Yes or no?

Trae is 2nd best PG on offense and then worst on defense. You're telling me his defense doesn't minimize his impact?

I actually like Trae a lot. I'm a Celtics fan so supported IT when he was worst defender in the league so I know what you're going through trying to convince yourself his defense isn't that bad. Reality is IT's overall impact was dragged down due to his atrocious defense, even though he was putting up 30 PPG...

How about you answer my question?

What I think is defense metrics are way less accurate than offensive metrics. You guys run to the Trae Young's defense is "the worst EVER " statically to minimize him. You can't compare Isiah to Trae because Boston was built to win while Atlanta is rebuilding with young players that don't play defense. Trae's also only in his second year. What year was Isiah?

Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats. I'll wait. My point is as much as they try to isolate a player for defense, they can not. If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player and visa versa.

In this thread, you literally said,"his terrible defense outweighs his offensive impact" and then you changed it up to "it brings down his impact". For you to make that first statement, shows your agenda. You want to bring down a budding generational offensive star, to fit your narrative.

You will see no Hawks fan arguing about Trae's defense being terrible. We all agree on that and agree he needs to get better, but to act like his bad defense out weighs the positive impact he has on the court is silly. Again, name 30 point guards you'd take before Trae on your favorite team. Guess, what? You honestly can't.

He's already at least a top 10 point guard in the league with is bad defense and all. That's pretty exceptional for a second year player, most of you named a bust after summer league and first quarter of his rookie season.

[Galloisdaman]

I would give Schlenk an A for drafting Young as well. The problem is, he had an A+ in his hand and obviously decided he’d rather have the A. He gets points for drafting Young over every player available except for 1. And when we throw in the 2 lottery picks he made in 2019 (along with another questionable trade) he loses more points on the math test that isn’t one.

That’s the way I see it anyways.

I understand your point but the NBA draft is not a sure thing. Nobody can say for sure what they have until the players play in the NBA. Sometimes it takes years to figure out who had the best picks. That is why better players are drafted out of order every year. Curry was drafted 7th after Johnny Flynn, Ricky Rubio, Tyreek Evans, and Thabeet. That is the risk in the draft. If anyone knew for sure that Luka would be this good he would have been drafted #1 just like guys like Bird, Jordan, etc would have been drafted #1. Hindsight is 20-20 but the NBA draft is not.

I agree that the NBA isn’t a sure thing, but there are scouts and GM’s who get paid a lot of money to make the right player evaluations and subsequently the right moves. Some of these people are very good at their jobs, some average and some quite poor. The only thing I’m certain about is that ‘it’s a crapshoot’ is not a viable excuse for making poor decisions and the guy who drafted Rubio and Flynn has been unemployed for years.

The best scouts and GMs still do not always draft the best player in order. There is no GM nor scout that has a perfect record of always drafting the best available player. The NBA draft may not be a total crap shoot but its still impossible to know for sure who will be the best player 1-30 until they play in the NBA. In fact it is sometimes hard for years to say for sure. If all those GMs that get paid a lot of money to get it right knew Luka would be this Luka they would have traded up to get him wouldn't they have?

[Duke4life831]

Why are we acting like this is closed book though? This thread is entirely premature. If Trae Young's TEAM wins 3 championships and Luka' wins 2 with both putting up the numbers they are putting up, who would be considered the generational talent? It wouldn't just be Luka in that case.

I can't stand this argument that Luka's a generational talent and then people here cap Trae at an all star level. He's already a freaking all star his second year. What do you think will happen when he plays with better players, improves his defense?

There is a gap between Trae and Luka, but the gap isn't as big as you guys make it out to be. Yes, this is coming from a biased Hawks fan, but most here thought Trae would be a bust and no matter what he does will always give whataboutisms.

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

My biggest concern with Young becoming that guy is that he’s a really, really bad defensive player with poor physical tools and (apparently) no drive to play hard on that end. (I honestly can’t believe how little he tries on defense). The 2nd problem can be fixed but I think the Hawks will always be working around the 1st problem making it very difficult to put a top defensive team on the floor. Doncic isn’t exactly Scottie Pippen himself but his size, strength and instincts at least make him as a passable defender who doesn’t need to be constantly hidden and provided with help.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

[The_Hater]

I understand your point but the NBA draft is not a sure thing. Nobody can say for sure what they have until the players play in the NBA. Sometimes it takes years to figure out who had the best picks. That is why better players are drafted out of order every year. Curry was drafted 7th after Johnny Flynn, Ricky Rubio, Tyreek Evans, and Thabeet. That is the risk in the draft. If anyone knew for sure that Luka would be this good he would have been drafted #1 just like guys like Bird, Jordan, etc would have been drafted #1. Hindsight is 20-20 but the NBA draft is not.

I agree that the NBA isn’t a sure thing, but there are scouts and GM’s who get paid a lot of money to make the right player evaluations and subsequently the right moves. Some of these people are very good at their jobs, some average and some quite poor. The only thing I’m certain about is that ‘it’s a crapshoot’ is not a viable excuse for making poor decisions and the guy who drafted Rubio and Flynn has been unemployed for years.

The best scouts and GMs still do not always draft the best player in order. There is no GM nor scout that has a perfect record of always drafting the best available player. The NBA draft may not be a total crap shoot but its still impossible to know for sure who will be the best player 1-30 until they play in the NBA. In fact it is sometimes hard for years to say for sure. If all those GMs that get paid a lot of money to get it right knew Luka would be this Luka they would have traded up to get him wouldn't they have?

I never said they did. But missing out on somebody who I consider a transcendent player is bigger than your average draft mistake and Schlenk’s other moves, some of which I mentioned, haven’t been very good either.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drafting Young wasn’t the same level of mistake as drafting Bagley or Ayton, but imo it was still a mistake. And we shouldn’t be afraid to point it out as a mistake, that’s what we do as armchair quarterbacks.

[The_Hater]

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

My biggest concern with Young becoming that guy is that he’s a really, really bad defensive player with poor physical tools and (apparently) no drive to play hard on that end. (I honestly can’t believe how little he tries on defense). The 2nd problem can be fixed but I think the Hawks will always be working around the 1st problem making it very difficult to put a top defensive team on the floor. Doncic isn’t exactly Scottie Pippen himself but his size, strength and instincts at least make him as a passable defender who doesn’t need to be constantly hidden and provided with help.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

Sometimes defensive metrics are off, but in this instance it’s not like the eye test is telling us something completely different either.

[marco102]

Fair point. No doubt we could look back at this in a few years and Young is the better player.

My biggest concern with Young becoming that guy is that he’s a really, really bad defensive player with poor physical tools and (apparently) no drive to play hard on that end. (I honestly can’t believe how little he tries on defense). The 2nd problem can be fixed but I think the Hawks will always be working around the 1st problem making it very difficult to put a top defensive team on the floor. Doncic isn’t exactly Scottie Pippen himself but his size, strength and instincts at least make him as a passable defender who doesn’t need to be constantly hidden and provided with help.

The lack of size is the number one reason that when we look at who the all-time greats in the league are, they’re almost never small players. All that said, Offensively, Young is definitely an elite talent and a worthy all star in his 2nd season.

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

Its weigh over blown for a second year player and only brought up when people speak positively about young. Who in their right mind expected him to be a good defender his first few years? Who thought he'd be this good offensively his first few years?

[Galloisdaman]

I agree that the NBA isn’t a sure thing, but there are scouts and GM’s who get paid a lot of money to make the right player evaluations and subsequently the right moves. Some of these people are very good at their jobs, some average and some quite poor. The only thing I’m certain about is that ‘it’s a crapshoot’ is not a viable excuse for making poor decisions and the guy who drafted Rubio and Flynn has been unemployed for years.

The best scouts and GMs still do not always draft the best player in order. There is no GM nor scout that has a perfect record of always drafting the best available player. The NBA draft may not be a total crap shoot but its still impossible to know for sure who will be the best player 1-30 until they play in the NBA. In fact it is sometimes hard for years to say for sure. If all those GMs that get paid a lot of money to get it right knew Luka would be this Luka they would have traded up to get him wouldn't they have?

I never said they did. But missing out on somebody who I consider a transcendent player is bigger than your average draft mistake and Schlenk’s other moves, some of which I mentioned, haven’t been very good either.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drafting Young wasn’t the same level of mistake as drafting Bagley or Ayton, but imo it was still a mistake. And we shouldn’t be afraid to point it out as a mistake, that’s what we do as armchair quarterbacks.

Well armchair quarterbacks never miss a pass so.....

[marco102]

I agree that the NBA isn’t a sure thing, but there are scouts and GM’s who get paid a lot of money to make the right player evaluations and subsequently the right moves. Some of these people are very good at their jobs, some average and some quite poor. The only thing I’m certain about is that ‘it’s a crapshoot’ is not a viable excuse for making poor decisions and the guy who drafted Rubio and Flynn has been unemployed for years.

The best scouts and GMs still do not always draft the best player in order. There is no GM nor scout that has a perfect record of always drafting the best available player. The NBA draft may not be a total crap shoot but its still impossible to know for sure who will be the best player 1-30 until they play in the NBA. In fact it is sometimes hard for years to say for sure. If all those GMs that get paid a lot of money to get it right knew Luka would be this Luka they would have traded up to get him wouldn't they have?

I never said they did. But missing out on somebody who I consider a transcendent player is bigger than your average draft mistake and Schlenk’s other moves, some of which I mentioned, haven’t been very good either.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drafting Young wasn’t the same level of mistake as drafting Bagley or Ayton, but imo it was still a mistake. And we shouldn’t be afraid to point it out as a mistake, that’s what we do as armchair quarterbacks.

Do you think Trae Young is a generational or potential to be generational offensive player?

[The_Hater]

The best scouts and GMs still do not always draft the best player in order. There is no GM nor scout that has a perfect record of always drafting the best available player. The NBA draft may not be a total crap shoot but its still impossible to know for sure who will be the best player 1-30 until they play in the NBA. In fact it is sometimes hard for years to say for sure. If all those GMs that get paid a lot of money to get it right knew Luka would be this Luka they would have traded up to get him wouldn't they have?

I never said they did. But missing out on somebody who I consider a transcendent player is bigger than your average draft mistake and Schlenk’s other moves, some of which I mentioned, haven’t been very good either.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drafting Young wasn’t the same level of mistake as drafting Bagley or Ayton, but imo it was still a mistake. And we shouldn’t be afraid to point it out as a mistake, that’s what we do as armchair quarterbacks.

Do you think Trae Young is a generational offensive player?

I think you’re either a generational player or you’re not. I don’t divide it into offense and defense because both sides of the ball matter to varying degrees. I do think that Young can become one of the 10 best players in the league though despite his defensive issues.

[themoneyteam2]

I'll end your rant really quick. Are there 31 point guards in the NBA you'd take before Trae Young on your favorite team? If the answer to that is no, then your entire argument is a moot point. If it's yes, then list them.

Never said RPM is the end all be all. It just shows how his defense drags down his amazing offense. I'm saying all his advanced stats don't do him any favors. Do you think his defense weighs down his total impact? Yes or no?

Trae is 2nd best PG on offense and then worst on defense. You're telling me his defense doesn't minimize his impact?

I actually like Trae a lot. I'm a Celtics fan so supported IT when he was worst defender in the league so I know what you're going through trying to convince yourself his defense isn't that bad. Reality is IT's overall impact was dragged down due to his atrocious defense, even though he was putting up 30 PPG...

How about you answer my question?

What I think is defense metrics are way less accurate than offensive metrics. You guys run to the Trae Young's defense is "the worst EVER " statically to minimize him. You can't compare Isiah to Trae because Boston was built to win while Atlanta is rebuilding with young players that don't play defense. Trae's also only in his second year. What year was Isiah?

Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats. I'll wait. My point is as much as they try to isolate a player for defense, they can not. If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player and visa versa.

In this thread, you literally said,"his terrible defense outweighs his offensive impact" and then you changed it up to "it brings down his impact". For you to make that first statement, shows your agenda. You want to bring down a budding generational offensive star, to fit your narrative.

You will see no Hawks fan arguing about Trae's defense being terrible. We all agree on that and agree he needs to get better, but to act like his bad defense out weighs the positive impact he has on the court is silly. Again, name 30 point guards you'd take before Trae on your favorite team. Guess, what? You honestly can't.

He's already at least a top 10 point guard in the league with is bad defense and all. That's pretty exceptional for a second year player, most of you named a bust after summer league and first quarter of his rookie season.

Where the **** did I say I’d take 30 point guards over him? I have not once claimed Trae is the #30 ranked PG in the league. That’s just what one metric has him rated as. All his advanced stats don’t do any favors. You act like I’m treating RPM as the only ranking metric lmaoooo. Get a grip and stop crying.

And to answer your question, he’s comfortably in the top 10 of point guards. Probably anywhere from 5-7 I would say.

“ Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats.” uhh that’s literally what Isaiah Thomas was lol. You say “ If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player” but that’s just not the case when the Celtics had the #4 defense in the league and Isaiah was still the worst defender at his position.

I think Kemba is probably near the bottom of point guards on defense as well but I’d have to check that.

Defensive metrics aren’t perfect by any means. That’s not the point though. And advanced stats in general aren’t perfect, hence why Trae is a top 10 PG easily even though advanced stats say otherwise. You can’t just rely on advanced stats solely.

And again I never said I’d take 30 point guards over Trae but apparently you’re stuck on that lol.

[marco102]

I never said they did. But missing out on somebody who I consider a transcendent player is bigger than your average draft mistake and Schlenk’s other moves, some of which I mentioned, haven’t been very good either.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drafting Young wasn’t the same level of mistake as drafting Bagley or Ayton, but imo it was still a mistake. And we shouldn’t be afraid to point it out as a mistake, that’s what we do as armchair quarterbacks.

Do you think Trae Young is a generational offensive player?

I think you’re either a generational player or you’re not. I don’t divide it into offense and defense because both sides of the ball matter to varying degrees. I do think that Young can become one of the 10 best players in the league though despite his defensive issues.

If thats the case Lukas not cause he is only generational on the offensive side of the ball.