Travis Schlenk needs to catch more flack.

[birdlives_ma]

Just RE: Trae’s defense... I think one thing that’s gonna be huge for him is to learn what every small point guard has to: ABF, baby. Always. Be. Fouling.

Seriously. As an undersized guy, you don’t really stand a chance physically. But if you’re a superstar, it’s almost as if the hand check rules don’t apply. Chris Paul is the modern master, lol

[themoneyteam2]

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

Its weigh over blown for a second year player and only brought up when people speak positively about young. Who in their right mind expected him to be a good defender his first few years? Who thought he'd be this good offensively his first few years?

Why are you deflecting? He showed you why people call him the worst defender in the league. You’re right nobody expected him to be a good defender. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I don’t think it’s a stretch to call him the worst defender in the league if you look at his numbers. Thankfully he’s elite of elite on offense so he’s able to make up for his atrocious defense but still not at the level you’d like. He’s only in his 2nd year but I would hope his defense improves as his career goes on, although his defense actually somehow got worse this year as his workload increased.

[marco102]

Never said RPM is the end all be all. It just shows how his defense drags down his amazing offense. I'm saying all his advanced stats don't do him any favors. Do you think his defense weighs down his total impact? Yes or no?

Trae is 2nd best PG on offense and then worst on defense. You're telling me his defense doesn't minimize his impact?

I actually like Trae a lot. I'm a Celtics fan so supported IT when he was worst defender in the league so I know what you're going through trying to convince yourself his defense isn't that bad. Reality is IT's overall impact was dragged down due to his atrocious defense, even though he was putting up 30 PPG...

How about you answer my question?

What I think is defense metrics are way less accurate than offensive metrics. You guys run to the Trae Young's defense is "the worst EVER " statically to minimize him. You can't compare Isiah to Trae because Boston was built to win while Atlanta is rebuilding with young players that don't play defense. Trae's also only in his second year. What year was Isiah?

Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats. I'll wait. My point is as much as they try to isolate a player for defense, they can not. If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player and visa versa.

In this thread, you literally said,"his terrible defense outweighs his offensive impact" and then you changed it up to "it brings down his impact". For you to make that first statement, shows your agenda. You want to bring down a budding generational offensive star, to fit your narrative.

You will see no Hawks fan arguing about Trae's defense being terrible. We all agree on that and agree he needs to get better, but to act like his bad defense out weighs the positive impact he has on the court is silly. Again, name 30 point guards you'd take before Trae on your favorite team. Guess, what? You honestly can't.

He's already at least a top 10 point guard in the league with is bad defense and all. That's pretty exceptional for a second year player, most of you named a bust after summer league and first quarter of his rookie season.

Where the **** did I say I’d take 30 point guards over him? I have not once claimed Trae is the #30 ranked PG in the league. That’s just what one metric has him rated as. All his advanced stats don’t do any favors. You act like I’m treating BPM as the only ranking metric lmaoooo. Get a grip and stop crying.

And to answer your question, he’s comfortably in the top 10 of point guards. Probably anywhere from 5-7 I would say.

“ Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats.” uhh that’s literally what Isaiah Thomas was lol. You say “ If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player” but that’s just not the case when the Celtics had the #4 defense in the league and Isaiah was still the worst defender at his position.

I think Kemba is probably near the bottom of point guards on defense as well but I’d have to check that.

Defensive metrics aren’t perfect by any means. That’s not the point though. And advanced stats in general aren’t perfect, hence why Trae is a top 10 PG easily even though advanced stats say otherwise. You can’t just rely on advanced stats solely.

And again I never said I’d take 30 point guards over Trae but apparently you’re stuck on that lol.

Just proving my point that these advanced stats you use should be taken with a grain of salt. You are the one coming in here quoting stats knowing damn well Trae Young is a budding super star. We know his flaws. We don't care about Luka. Yet you guys are in this thread acting like we cry every time Luka has a great game. Surprise! We love Trae Young. He has great games too.

We also know Luka is the better player right now, but the gap isn't as huge as you make it.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Just RE: Trae’s defense... I think one thing that’s gonna be huge for him is to learn what every small point guard has to: ABF, baby. Always. Be. Fouling.

Seriously. As an undersized guy, you don’t really stand a chance physically. But if you’re a superstar, it’s almost as if the hand check rules don’t apply. Chris Paul is the modern master, lol

He needs to gain weight and get stronger, all the guys around his height that aren't defensive liabilities are stocky (Lowry, VanVleet, CP3, Bledsoe).

[themoneyteam2]

How about you answer my question?

What I think is defense metrics are way less accurate than offensive metrics. You guys run to the Trae Young's defense is "the worst EVER " statically to minimize him. You can't compare Isiah to Trae because Boston was built to win while Atlanta is rebuilding with young players that don't play defense. Trae's also only in his second year. What year was Isiah?

Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats. I'll wait. My point is as much as they try to isolate a player for defense, they can not. If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player and visa versa.

In this thread, you literally said,"his terrible defense outweighs his offensive impact" and then you changed it up to "it brings down his impact". For you to make that first statement, shows your agenda. You want to bring down a budding generational offensive star, to fit your narrative.

You will see no Hawks fan arguing about Trae's defense being terrible. We all agree on that and agree he needs to get better, but to act like his bad defense out weighs the positive impact he has on the court is silly. Again, name 30 point guards you'd take before Trae on your favorite team. Guess, what? You honestly can't.

He's already at least a top 10 point guard in the league with is bad defense and all. That's pretty exceptional for a second year player, most of you named a bust after summer league and first quarter of his rookie season.

Where the **** did I say I’d take 30 point guards over him? I have not once claimed Trae is the #30 ranked PG in the league. That’s just what one metric has him rated as. All his advanced stats don’t do any favors. You act like I’m treating BPM as the only ranking metric lmaoooo. Get a grip and stop crying.

And to answer your question, he’s comfortably in the top 10 of point guards. Probably anywhere from 5-7 I would say.

“ Show me one player on a top defensive team that's in the bottom of the defensive stats.” uhh that’s literally what Isaiah Thomas was lol. You say “ If a team plays good defense, it brings up the bad player” but that’s just not the case when the Celtics had the #4 defense in the league and Isaiah was still the worst defender at his position.

I think Kemba is probably near the bottom of point guards on defense as well but I’d have to check that.

Defensive metrics aren’t perfect by any means. That’s not the point though. And advanced stats in general aren’t perfect, hence why Trae is a top 10 PG easily even though advanced stats say otherwise. You can’t just rely on advanced stats solely.

And again I never said I’d take 30 point guards over Trae but apparently you’re stuck on that lol.

Just proving my point that these advanced stats you use should be taken with a grain of salt. You are the one coming in here quoting stats knowing damn well Trae Young is a budding super star. We know his flaws. We don't care about Luka. Yet you guys are in this thread acting like we cry every time Luka has a great game. Surprise! We love Trae Young. He has great games too.

We also know Luka is the better player right now, but the gap isn't as huge as you make it.

Well you can’t just completely dismiss the advanced stats when they don’t fit the narrative too. He is a bad defender and the roster around him isn’t good either. Both can be true. It’s not just cause of his supporting cast that his defensive numbers suck lol. There are guys who are bad defenders on good defensive teams. Of course you take it with a grain of salt. I just used RPM to show how his poor defense really drags his impact down on the court, despite him being elite of elite offensively. He’s #2 in offensive RPM which I also think isn’t all that accurate, just like you think his defense being worst in league isn’t that accurate. Advanced stats is jusr one metric to use but not the only thing to look at.

Year two averaging 29 and 9 is insane. I think we all agree. He’ll get even better on that end and more efficient on that end. Hopefully Schlenk will improve their roster if Atlanta wants to do anything in the playoffs in Trae’s prime

[marco102]

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

Its weigh over blown for a second year player and only brought up when people speak positively about young. Who in their right mind expected him to be a good defender his first few years? Who thought he'd be this good offensively his first few years?

Why are you deflecting? He showed you why people call him the worst defender in the league. You’re right nobody expected him to be a good defender. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I don’t think it’s a stretch to call him the worst defender in the league if you look at his numbers. Thankfully he’s elite of elite on offense so he’s able to make up for his atrocious defense but still not at the level you’d like. He’s only in his 2nd year but I would hope his defense improves as his career goes on, although his defense actually somehow got worse this year as his workload increased.

I'm not deflecting you were the one that literally said his defense is so bad it outweighs his offense and no metric shows that. Even though he is the worst defender in the league by those metrics he still has a positive impact. So what do you think his impact will be when he is normal bad which we as Hawks fans have seen in games when he puts in effort?

He is an offensive prodigy right now.

I'm just tired of people putting limitations on Trae when he wasn't expected to be this good and act like we weep for Doncic. I honestly do not. He's great. Would I love to have him on the Hawks, yup just like any other great player. We have our own great player to build around. Bad defense and all.

[Duke4life831]

I honestly believe that this "Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the league" has taken on a life of its own is way overblown.

Yes, he's terrible on most nights, but check his clutch defense and compare it to Luka's. You'll be surprised who's better. Which leads me to, when Trae does try to play defense, he's normal bad...if that's a thing.

I'm sure I've watched a ton more Hawks than you. We've seen him be serviceable when he puts in effort. If the Hawks are in close games, towards the end, he plays much better defense and isn't a traffic cone. I mean some players still run him over, but the effort is there and he makes it more difficult.

I think he'll end up being "normal bad" in his prime, but the narrative that he's the worst player in the league will still stick. It's stuck with James Harden even though he's improved a ton.

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

Its weigh over blown for a second year player and only brought up when people speak positively about young. Who in their right mind expected him to be a good defender his first few years? Who thought he'd be this good offensively his first few years?

No one expected him to be a good defender, but the question wasn't, how well has he performed defensively compared to his expectations, or what his defensive potential is. You said the Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the NBA talk is way overblown. I was just pointing out that statistically its not overblown, its actually pretty accurate for the time being, which I think is what people mean by when they say he is the worst defensive player in the league, they're talking about right now.

[marco102]

People say this because they see him get torched over and over again and practically all metrics show this.

DRPM: Last in the league by a huge margin
DRAPM: 5th worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (7th worst overall for all NBA players)
D-PIPM: Last in the league
RAPTOR: 6th worst in the league
DEFRTG: 3rd worst in the league for guys getting at least 20 minutes a game (4th worst overall)
DBPM: 3rd worst in the league

So I don't think its much of a stretch or way overblown for people to call him the worst defender in the league. Again most metrics paint him as the worst or one of the worst.

Its weigh over blown for a second year player and only brought up when people speak positively about young. Who in their right mind expected him to be a good defender his first few years? Who thought he'd be this good offensively his first few years?

No one expected him to be a good defender, but the question wasn't, how well has he performed defensively compared to his expectations, or what his defensive potential is. You said the Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the NBA talk is way overblown. I was just pointing out that statistically its not overblown, its actually pretty accurate for the time being, which I think is what people mean by when they say he is the worst defensive player in the league, they're talking about right now.

By most of those metrics, he is not THE worst defensive player. He surely is one of the worst. And he is not the worst defensive player ever which is what some attempt to say too.

[Duke4life831]

Its weigh over blown for a second year player and only brought up when people speak positively about young. Who in their right mind expected him to be a good defender his first few years? Who thought he'd be this good offensively his first few years?

No one expected him to be a good defender, but the question wasn't, how well has he performed defensively compared to his expectations, or what his defensive potential is. You said the Trae Young is the worst defensive player in the NBA talk is way overblown. I was just pointing out that statistically its not overblown, its actually pretty accurate for the time being, which I think is what people mean by when they say he is the worst defensive player in the league, they're talking about right now.

By most of those metrics, he is not THE worst defensive players. He surely is one of the worst. And he is not the worst defensive player ever which is what some attempt to say too.

Now we are just talking semantics now. Hard to claim someone is way overblown when they say Trae is the worst defender when out of probably the 6 most used metrics, 2 of them have him as the worst, 2 more have him bottom 3, another has him 5th and the other has him 6th. I think someone can make a pretty solid argument that he is the worst looking at those metrics. Yes saying he is the worst defensive player of all time is hyperbole, but saying he is the worst defensive player right now has a pretty solid statistical backing, definitely not a way overblown argument.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm just tired of people putting limitations on Trae when he wasn't expected to be this good and act like we weep for Doncic. I honestly do not. He's great. Would I love to have him on the Hawks, yup just like any other great player. We have our own great player to build around. Bad defense and all.

I absolutely respect this. It's exactly how you should feel as a fan. It's how I was with Dirk. Yeah I knew Timmy was better, but I wanted the team to win with our guy. It made 2011 so special because our guy did that. My whole life I've always been more a team guy than an individual guy. But with that title it was all about Dirk for me. I was nearly 40 years old crying on my couch for Dirk.

What's done is done with the trade. Doesn't matter what Luka is or isn't doing. That die is cast. Trae is an absolutely brilliant offensive player. Now he needs a ton of help. Hawks went out and got him a PNR big who will also upgrade the defense. Great start. Bringing back Dedmon a head scratcher, but okay now you have some insurance behind him. Have some talented young wings but none of them are locks to be quality starters in 20-21. Team needs to use some cap space to go get at least one veteran wing and a quality backup PG who defends well enough to play next to Trae.

They also have to decide on Collins. If it were me I would try and trade him and not pay him. I'm not convinced he and Trae are the right core. They don't have much offensive synergy and I'm not convinced Collins dominates as a 4. And once they pay him they lose a good deal of the flexibility of having so many guys on rookie deals.


But its okay to acknowledge that Trae is the worst defender in the league. Or 2nd worst I suppose considering Zach Lavine is still employed as a basketball player in the Association. He's awful. And I know you keep sort of acknowledging that, but its clear you don't actually because you keep fighting back against it. He's dreadful. Some of that will always be because of his size and lack of instincts. You can live with that because he's such a special offensive player. But much of it is lack of effort, lack of attention to detail, pure laziness. That's the stuff instead of defending you should be wanting fixed. You should be wanting him held accountable.

You can win big with a bad defensive point guard, but he's got to try. Not just to help the defense, but you want everyone else on the team to defend and when they see the max contract superstar doesn't care, they are less likely to. It was a significant issue with the Suns and Nash. Nash and Amare got all the money and the glory and the shots, but both just passed on the idea of playing defense. Matrix finally got fed up and complained and the team chose their superstars, as one does, but it ended their chances of ever getting over the hump. Raja Bell couldn't defend everyone.

[LukaV]

I'm just tired of people putting limitations on Trae when he wasn't expected to be this good and act like we weep for Doncic. I honestly do not. He's great. Would I love to have him on the Hawks, yup just like any other great player. We have our own great player to build around. Bad defense and all.

/.../
You can win big with a bad defensive point guard, but he's got to try. Not just to help the defense, but you want everyone else on the team to defend and when they see the max contract superstar doesn't care, they are less likely to. It was a significant issue with the Suns and Nash. Nash and Amare got all the money and the glory and the shots, but both just passed on the idea of playing defense. Matrix finally got fed up and complained and the team chose their superstars, as one does, but it ended their chances of ever getting over the hump. Raja Bell couldn't defend everyone.

Sorry for the t/j, but can you expand on this Suns story or perhaps post a link or two with more info? I didn't know Marion complained and that the team "chose" Nash&Amare over him. Thanks!

[marco102]

I'm just tired of people putting limitations on Trae when he wasn't expected to be this good and act like we weep for Doncic. I honestly do not. He's great. Would I love to have him on the Hawks, yup just like any other great player. We have our own great player to build around. Bad defense and all.

I absolutely respect this. It's exactly how you should feel as a fan. It's how I was with Dirk. Yeah I knew Timmy was better, but I wanted the team to win with our guy. It made 2011 so special because our guy did that. My whole life I've always been more a team guy than an individual guy. But with that title it was all about Dirk for me. I was nearly 40 years old crying on my couch for Dirk.

What's done is done with the trade. Doesn't matter what Luka is or isn't doing. That die is cast. Trae is an absolutely brilliant offensive player. Now he needs a ton of help. Hawks went out and got him a PNR big who will also upgrade the defense. Great start. Bringing back Dedmon a head scratcher, but okay now you have some insurance behind him. Have some talented young wings but none of them are locks to be quality starters in 20-21. Team needs to use some cap space to go get at least one veteran wing and a quality backup PG who defends well enough to play next to Trae.

They also have to decide on Collins. If it were me I would try and trade him and not pay him. I'm not convinced he and Trae are the right core. They don't have much offensive synergy and I'm not convinced Collins dominates as a 4. And once they pay him they lose a good deal of the flexibility of having so many guys on rookie deals.


But its okay to acknowledge that Trae is the worst defender in the league. Or 2nd worst I suppose considering Zach Lavine is still employed as a basketball player in the Association. He's awful. And I know you keep sort of acknowledging that, but its clear you don't actually because you keep fighting back against it. He's dreadful. Some of that will always be because of his size and lack of instincts. You can live with that because he's such a special offensive player. But much of it is lack of effort, lack of attention to detail, pure laziness. That's the stuff instead of defending you should be wanting fixed. You should be wanting him held accountable.

You can win big with a bad defensive point guard, but he's got to try. Not just to help the defense, but you want everyone else on the team to defend and when they see the max contract superstar doesn't care, they are less likely to. It was a significant issue with the Suns and Nash. Nash and Amare got all the money and the glory and the shots, but both just passed on the idea of playing defense. Matrix finally got fed up and complained and the team chose their superstars, as one does, but it ended their chances of ever getting over the hump. Raja Bell couldn't defend everyone.

You may be misintpretating what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Trae shouldn't be critized for his defense or anything.

In most cases, whenever someone mentions Trae's accomplishments this season, it's always someone saying well he's the worst defensive player in the league. Well yeah, we know that, but it doesn't take away from his offensive accomplishments this season. We are Young rebuilding team and when you get that offensive peice, which we Hawks fans haven't had since Nique, we are excited as hell about it.

Luka doesn't get that same hate even though I know he's well above Trae in the defensive metrics, but he's def not a good defender. I saw Dame waltz past him like a traffic cone in the last game. I've also seen Luka putting in much more effort on that end in the bubble which is encouraging for you Mavs fans. Dame showed one of Luka's flaws, he'll have trouble defending quick guards. He'll do fine with the bigger wings etc in his prime.

I'm by no way saying that I want Trae to not put in effort on the defensive end and those are my expectations for him. My point is our entire team is young and the defense is a work in progress. If Trae is this bad his 5th year, I'll be gripping about him. Being one of the worst defensive players in the league in your 2nd year while being a top five offensive player, is super encouraging and outweighs his defensive shortcomings right now.

An aside, your JC take is a bit off. He and Trae work excellently on the offensive end. It's the defensive end that terrifies us Hawks fans. JC did however improve a ton on that end this year, which gives most of us hope.

[marco102]

triple post.

[marco102]

triple post.

[Dupp]

Imagine booker and luka together. That’s an all time what if

[Texas Chuck]

[
You may be misintpretating what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Trae shouldn't be critized for his defense or anything.

In most cases, whenever someone mentions Trae's accomplishments this season, it's always someone saying well he's the worst defensive player in the league. Well yeah, we know that, but it doesn't take away from his offensive accomplishments this season. We are Young rebuilding team and when you get that offensive peice, which we Hawks fans haven't had since Nique, we are excited as hell about it.

Luka doesn't get that same hate even though I know he's well above Trae in the defensive metrics, but he's def not a good defender. I saw Dame waltz past him like a traffic cone in the last game. I've also seen Luka putting in much more effort on that end in the bubble which is encouraging for you Mavs fans. Dame showed one of Luka's flaws, he'll have trouble defending quick guards. He'll do fine with the bigger wings etc in his prime.

Thanks for clarifying. My apologies for misunderstanding where you were coming from.

I totally get the frustration of not being able to enjoy his offense without people pointing out the obvious defensive issues. In this thread its a bit difference since it was specifically about the decision to pass on Luka, but you are right overall. We should be able to have threads involving Trae without the defense dominating the thread. He's simply too special of an offensive player for the defense to be the focus.

Luka is like Trae in that he's got some physical limitations--different ones of course--but he still has some. As an on ball defender in space he's always going to struggle. Where he's got to improve though is putting up at least some resistance. He has to stop losing his man off-ball. Seems like get was getting back-doored 2-3x a game there for a while. He's pretty solid in the post and of course he's a great defensive rebounder. But with his limitations and his usage, Dallas is always going to try and protect/hide him. And his size means they have more options. He can go stand in the corner with a stretch player at basically every position but center. Trae's lack of size limits that unfortunately.

But I hope that as time goes by and the Hawks do what the Mavs started to do this year and get more talent around Trae that we can all just sit back for the next decade plus and marvel at the offensive brilliance of these guys.

And in full disclosure, I was definitely a Trae doubter at the draft. He fell off so much the 2nd half at Oklahoma and he was so small, I just wasn't sold he'd translate. You'd think I'd learn because I thought the same thing about Steph, but no, I'm slow.

[marco102]

[
You may be misintpretating what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Trae shouldn't be critized for his defense or anything.

In most cases, whenever someone mentions Trae's accomplishments this season, it's always someone saying well he's the worst defensive player in the league. Well yeah, we know that, but it doesn't take away from his offensive accomplishments this season. We are Young rebuilding team and when you get that offensive peice, which we Hawks fans haven't had since Nique, we are excited as hell about it.

Luka doesn't get that same hate even though I know he's well above Trae in the defensive metrics, but he's def not a good defender. I saw Dame waltz past him like a traffic cone in the last game. I've also seen Luka putting in much more effort on that end in the bubble which is encouraging for you Mavs fans. Dame showed one of Luka's flaws, he'll have trouble defending quick guards. He'll do fine with the bigger wings etc in his prime.

Thanks for clarifying. My apologies for misunderstanding where you were coming from.

I totally get the frustration of not being able to enjoy his offense without people pointing out the obvious defensive issues. In this thread its a bit difference since it was specifically about the decision to pass on Luka, but you are right overall. We should be able to have threads involving Trae without the defense dominating the thread. He's simply too special of an offensive player for the defense to be the focus.

Luka is like Trae in that he's got some physical limitations--different ones of course--but he still has some. As an on ball defender in space he's always going to struggle. Where he's got to improve though is putting up at least some resistance. He has to stop losing his man off-ball. Seems like get was getting back-doored 2-3x a game there for a while. He's pretty solid in the post and of course he's a great defensive rebounder. But with his limitations and his usage, Dallas is always going to try and protect/hide him. And his size means they have more options. He can go stand in the corner with a stretch player at basically every position but center. Trae's lack of size limits that unfortunately.

But I hope that as time goes by and the Hawks do what the Mavs started to do this year and get more talent around Trae that we can all just sit back for the next decade plus and marvel at the offensive brilliance of these guys.

And in full disclosure, I was definitely a Trae doubter at the draft. He fell off so much the 2nd half at Oklahoma and he was so small, I just wasn't sold he'd translate. You'd think I'd learn because I thought the same thing about Steph, but no, I'm slow.

whispers: I was one of those fans screaming mad when we passed on Luka on draft night. I just thought Trae was a chucker. I had no idea he was such a good passer.

Luka's going to be great and I have no ill will to prop Trae up by bringing Luka down. The game he had against the Bucks was one of the best individual games of the season if you ask me. I was like wow, this kid is special.

I also agree, theoretically, building around Luka should be easier than building around Trae due to Luka's size and skillset. It gives you more avenues of players you can bring on.

[The_Hater]

Do you think Trae Young is a generational offensive player?

I think you’re either a generational player or you’re not. I don’t divide it into offense and defense because both sides of the ball matter to varying degrees. I do think that Young can become one of the 10 best players in the league though despite his defensive issues.

If thats the case Lukas not cause he is only generational on the offensive side of the ball.

That’s not what I said and I already addressed this in an earlier post.

A lot of people like to put players into two defensive categories, they’re either good or they’re bad. But that’s a simplistic view that misses a whole bunch of players in the middle. And there’s a huge gap between being average/ok and being awful. It’s very difficult to have a top team defense with even one awful defender playing a lot of minutes. And you need to be on that level to contend for championships.

Guys like Bird, Magic, Barkley weren’t great defenders but they were ok. Steph Curry is in this range as well. I also see Doncic being in this category and I don’t know a single all time great player who was an awful defensive player.

So to answer your question, if Young remains one of the best offensive players in the league and remains one of the worst defensive players in the league, I see that as a huge problem in Atlanta’s quest to compete for championships and to label Young a generational talent. Right now I think he’s more in a Dame Lillard trajectory and he’s another little guy who struggles on defense. But at least he plays hard on that end.

[Threezus]

I agree that the NBA isn’t a sure thing, but there are scouts and GM’s who get paid a lot of money to make the right player evaluations and subsequently the right moves. Some of these people are very good at their jobs, some average and some quite poor. The only thing I’m certain about is that ‘it’s a crapshoot’ is not a viable excuse for making poor decisions and the guy who drafted Rubio and Flynn has been unemployed for years.

The best scouts and GMs still do not always draft the best player in order. There is no GM nor scout that has a perfect record of always drafting the best available player. The NBA draft may not be a total crap shoot but its still impossible to know for sure who will be the best player 1-30 until they play in the NBA. In fact it is sometimes hard for years to say for sure. If all those GMs that get paid a lot of money to get it right knew Luka would be this Luka they would have traded up to get him wouldn't they have?

I never said they did. But missing out on somebody who I consider a transcendent player is bigger than your average draft mistake and Schlenk’s other moves, some of which I mentioned, haven’t been very good either.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, drafting Young wasn’t the same level of mistake as drafting Bagley or Ayton, but imo it was still a mistake. And we shouldn’t be afraid to point it out as a mistake, that’s what we do as armchair quarterbacks.

This is something im interested in What other moves do you hate or don't think are good? Hunter and Reddish for sure shouldn't be in that list as imo those were great moves and the 2 guys i wanted in that draft and even listed them in mock drafts for us. Drafting John Collins at 19 was a fricken monster get for his resume. I also think getting Capela for 15 and Huerter in the teens are pretty good moves as well. Then you add in the fact that he has our cap space as some of the best in the league going forward and i don't see where he went wrong on most of the things he has done. Is he perfect no as no one is but he has done some pretty great things so far i would say.

[Threezus]

Now as for Traes defense you won't hear me defend it very much for right now. Just more so that i know what he can do on defense when he puts the effort into it like he does on offense. He's never going to be a good defender but he won't be a major liability at all times either if he can ever keep that effort up he reaches at times. I honestly think because our defense in general not just trae but the whole team is so bad that trae slacks on that side of the court just so he can put so much effort into offense to try and keep us in games. I 100% believe if you build a quality team around trae with solid to good defenders and good shooting that he will take some of the load he is carrying on offense right now and put that effort into defense. Which will in turn make him atleast acceptable on that end of the floor in due time.