Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets?

[Froob]

I don’t think he’s overrated, but if Raps repeat without him, it’s got to take away a little away last year, no?

[OkcSinceSGA]

I don’t think he’s overrated, but if Raps repeat without him, it’s got to take away a little away last year, no?

Clippers are a nightmare matchup for Toronto. If that's the matchup, Raptors will lose in 5. Lakers I suppose Raptors have a solid shot. I give Toronto props for being a great regular season team the last 8 years, but they were known for playoff flameouts before last year.

[Froob]

I don’t think he’s overrated, but if Raps repeat without him, it’s got to take away a little away last year, no?

Clippers are a nightmare matchup for Toronto. If that's the matchup, Raptors will lose in 5. Lakers I suppose Raptors have a solid shot. I give Toronto props for being a great regular season team the last 8 years, but they were known for playoff flameouts before last year.

Lowry got the job done last year and deserves all the credit for it, but people are quick to erase his playoff failures.

Interesting to see if he’s gotten a new confidence and has put the monkey totally off his back.

[aguiar95]

I actually think he's very much underapreciated by us and the media. All the praise Lillard got this bubble I haven't seen Kawhi get his whole carreer. Guy just works hard and wins. Carried the Raptors and probably will carry the Clippers to their first title ever. If he does win, people has to start bringing his name amongst the greats.

[popfan]

It seems that all formidable teams beat the Rockets by some large margin in the playoffs. Why is your yard stick for #2 the Rockets? The Rockets haven't played in an NBA championship series in over a decade. Why? Because the Rockets don't play defense thus allowing wild scoring affairs. Beating a team in the NBA by 39 is commonplace in the "modern" NBA.

About sulking (in #3) the premise in your suggestion is that a player who sulks is undeserving of praise, MVPs, etc. Isaiah Thomas sulked after he was banned by MJ on the Dream Team. The Pistons sulked and refused to congratulate the Bulls after they were decidedly swept in the 1991 playoffs. After losing in game 3 of the Lakers series versus the Bulls in 1991, Magic Johnson sulked and acknowledge that the Bulls were the better team. With these few example, should we deny praise to Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas and the 1991 Detroit Pistons because they sulked? You come across as someone who will only validate praise if a player comes across as a conquering gladiator. Perhaps you can craft an argument that denies Tim Duncan praise for the Spurs playoff failures based on Tim's intermittent sulking across his career? If you didn't already know, greatly players have been known to sulk.

About #4 Kawhi deserved the credit he received for leading the Raptors to a championship. At this point you seem determined to hate on Kawhi despite his elite accomplishment. The praise that Kawhi received as a Raptor did not in any way undermine the praise deserved by the Raptors core. Despite the medias trashing of the Raptors after Kawhi departed I personally remained enthusiastic about the Raptors core. Both Kawhi as a Raptor MVP and the Raptors core were outstanding as NBA champions. Both are worthy of high praise.

About #5 if Kawhi "ran away" then so did KD and Lebron. Should KD and Lebron not merit praise for their accomplishments because they "ran away" too?

So flawed are your arguments that you come across as imbalanced. Hate if you wish. You live in the US, a country filled with haters.

1. Gets drafted by Pop, gets to play on the best franchise in the NBA. Wins the title as a 4TH best player while averaging 18 PPG while people act like he "locked down" LeBron by letting him average 28 PPG on 57% shooting
2. Has one "superstar" year in 2016/17, while still playing on with a GREAT supporting cast. Remember, the Spurs beat the Rockets in the Playoffs by 39 WITHOUT Kawhi. This proves that the Spurs were really good with or without Kawhi.
3. QUITS on the Spurs the following year for no reason. Decides to sulk, completely thwarting the Spurs franchise and making legends like Manu, Parker, etc. call him out for being selfish.
4. Joins the Raptors, gets credit for "carrying" the team to a championship. Despite the fact that the Raptors are already a 55 win team W/O him. Not to mention he wins a title against a Warriors team that's missing KD and Klay.
5. Still runs away and goes to sunny LA, but then tampers by prying Paul George away from OKC.

TLDR: This guy picks his spots, has one great year every 4 years, load manages games, quits on teams, always plays on stacked rosters that are really good without him. Diva attitude. How does anyone respect him as a NBA player?

[JXL]

Was Kawhi overrated when he won Finals MVP help carrying Duncan/Parker/Ginobili to San Antonio's 5th championship?

Was Kawhi overrated when (if he was healthy) carried the Spurs to the WCF in 2017 and were crushing the Warriors if not for a inadvertent foot stomp by Pachulia?

Was Kawhi overrated when it was his prayer that beat the Sixers in Game 7?

This forum bruh

[C3H6N6O6]

Was Kawhi overrated when he won Finals MVP help carrying Duncan/Parker/Ginobili to San Antonio's 5th championship?

This forum bruh

[Salieri]

Well I have Harden as #2 right now behind Giannis and I’m not even a Rockets fan. He is phenomenal, probably the best offensive player I’ve seen in 40 years of watching ball. Luka is great but he’s a 2nd year guy who hasn’t done anything yet. We have no idea if he will be better than Harden. I used to think Ralph Sampson, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway and countless others were going to be all time greats after their first couple of years too.

Having Harden as #2 is not a very popular idea, you gotta admit that. So your personal opinion is thinking very highly of him, which is fine. But people not agreeing with you does not mean Harden is disrespected. If it comes down to the old stupid overrated-underrated argument, it would be you overrating him before people underrating him.

Also, Luka has done arguably more than Harden (international basketball exists and no, I don't consider Harden's contribution to the 2012 olympic team vital to getting the gold). If we are talking about NBA exclusively, Harden hasn't gotten it done yet. Claiming Luka has done nothing is counterproductive to your argument, because Harden hasn't done anything yet either, and he has been in the league for a full decade instead of just a couple years.

And if you're gonna throw random names as another argument, two can play that game: Sampson, Hill and Hardaway didn't pan out. What about Shaq, Curry, Hakeem? What did you think about them after a couple years? Being great after 2 years is not a guarantee that they'll be trascendent players, of course. But it's even less guarantee of the opposite. Using his greatness as some kind of argument against him is bizarre to say the least.

We have no idea if he will be universally better than Harden, granted. But as an example: for me, Luka's already better than Harden ever was. Right now, today as we speak. So maybe he will never convince you -or the majority of fans- that he's better than Harden. That has happened already for a few of us. It's all a matter of personal opinions.

My point is: Harden might seem disrespected from your subjective point of view, he might be even overrated from others'. Complaining because the whole forum doesn't share your criteria regarding Harden seems a bit strange.

On topic: Kwahi is IMO every bit as good as perceived. He might not be the most creative player and he certainly is not perfect. But he has the ability of taking over a game or a series to a level I've seen only in Curry and LeBron.

He elevates his team's ceiling a great deal, he is very good at defense and amazing at offense. Him being lucky for all his career, apart from debatable, is a concept that shouldn't weigh in how good or bad he is. Garnett was unlucky for almost all his career and that doesn't make him greater than he already is. Magic was lucky for almost all his career and that doesn't diminish his greatness.

James Harden is better now (esp defensively) than he was 2 years ago when he led the Rockets to 65 wins and won MVP.

Calling Luka, who won't even finish top 3 in MVP voting, better than Harden ever was is delusional homerism.

Saying Harden is better at defense from 2 years ago is equal to saying he went from abysmal to just horrible. He's only good defensively against posting up, which is a form of offense that coaches are trying to steer away from due to its inefficiency. Luka is no defensive powerhouse by any means, but his size alone and him not being as lazy make him a better defender already.

Also, I don't care about MVPs. That accolade has never been significant to me when it comes to measuring players. And sure, I know the majority of people think Harden is better than Luka. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying I'd rather have Luka today than Harden today. To me, he's a better basketball player who produces better offense than Harden, even though I know Harden is an all time great offensive player and a legit one man army. I just prefer Luka's style, given that their impact on winning is similar. Harden is way more polished and yet Luka leads a more efficient offense. Once Luka improves his shootings percentages and learns how not to make risky passes to cut some unneeded turnovers, it'll be a no contest for everyone. As for now, I'm comfortable knowing I'm in the minority when I say I'd rather have Luka.

Call it homerism if you want given that I've been a Luka fan since his RM days, but it's a bit of a bold move. I'm a Lakers fan and you're a Rockets fan. You shouldn't want to start the homerism conversation IMO. But delusional is out of line, their impact is close enough to understand this is not one sided and there are arguments for picking either player. You can disagree with someone else's opinion on this subject, but you should admit it's at least debatable. I fail to see where's the delusion, honestly.

[Shock Defeat]

Having Harden as #2 is not a very popular idea, you gotta admit that. So your personal opinion is thinking very highly of him, which is fine. But people not agreeing with you does not mean Harden is disrespected. If it comes down to the old stupid overrated-underrated argument, it would be you overrating him before people underrating him.

Also, Luka has done arguably more than Harden (international basketball exists and no, I don't consider Harden's contribution to the 2012 olympic team vital to getting the gold). If we are talking about NBA exclusively, Harden hasn't gotten it done yet. Claiming Luka has done nothing is counterproductive to your argument, because Harden hasn't done anything yet either, and he has been in the league for a full decade instead of just a couple years.

And if you're gonna throw random names as another argument, two can play that game: Sampson, Hill and Hardaway didn't pan out. What about Shaq, Curry, Hakeem? What did you think about them after a couple years? Being great after 2 years is not a guarantee that they'll be trascendent players, of course. But it's even less guarantee of the opposite. Using his greatness as some kind of argument against him is bizarre to say the least.

We have no idea if he will be universally better than Harden, granted. But as an example: for me, Luka's already better than Harden ever was. Right now, today as we speak. So maybe he will never convince you -or the majority of fans- that he's better than Harden. That has happened already for a few of us. It's all a matter of personal opinions.

My point is: Harden might seem disrespected from your subjective point of view, he might be even overrated from others'. Complaining because the whole forum doesn't share your criteria regarding Harden seems a bit strange.

On topic: Kwahi is IMO every bit as good as perceived. He might not be the most creative player and he certainly is not perfect. But he has the ability of taking over a game or a series to a level I've seen only in Curry and LeBron.

He elevates his team's ceiling a great deal, he is very good at defense and amazing at offense. Him being lucky for all his career, apart from debatable, is a concept that shouldn't weigh in how good or bad he is. Garnett was unlucky for almost all his career and that doesn't make him greater than he already is. Magic was lucky for almost all his career and that doesn't diminish his greatness.

James Harden is better now (esp defensively) than he was 2 years ago when he led the Rockets to 65 wins and won MVP.

Calling Luka, who won't even finish top 3 in MVP voting, better than Harden ever was is delusional homerism.

Saying Harden is better at defense from 2 years ago is equal to saying he went from abysmal to just horrible. He's only good defensively against posting up, which is a form of offense that coaches are trying to steer away from due to its inefficiency. Luka is no defensive powerhouse by any means, but his size alone and him not being as lazy make him a better defender already.

Also, I don't care about MVPs. That accolade has never been significant to me when it comes to measuring players. And sure, I know the majority of people think Harden is better than Luka. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying I'd rather have Luka today than Harden today. To me, he's a better basketball player who produces better offense than Harden, even though I know Harden is an all time great offensive player and a legit one man army. I just prefer Luka's style, given that their impact on winning is similar. Harden is way more polished and yet Luka leads a more efficient offense. Once Luka improves his shootings percentages and learns how not to make risky passes to cut some unneeded turnovers, it'll be a no contest for everyone. As for now, I'm comfortable knowing I'm in the minority when I say I'd rather have Luka.

Call it homerism if you want given that I've been a Luka fan since his RM days, but it's a bit of a bold move. I'm a Lakers fan and you're a Rockets fan. You shouldn't want to start the homerism conversation IMO. But delusional is out of line, their impact is close enough to understand this is not one sided and there are arguments for picking either player. You can disagree with someone else's opinion on this subject, but you should admit it's at least debatable. I fail to see where's the delusion, honestly.

How is Luka better defensively than harden? have you seen the plays harden makes defensively? Saying he went from abysmal to horrible undermines the tremendous strides that he has made on that end.

There is no guarantee that Luka is going to improve dramatically anymore, especially as teams gameplan for him and start understanding his tendencies. Luka is still too young, but once NBA defenders have played dozens+ games against him they will start knowing how to defend him better, same with coaches.

[JoeyLightYears]

Saying Harden is better at defense from 2 years ago is equal to saying he went from abysmal to just horrible. He's only good defensively against posting up, which is a form of offense that coaches are trying to steer away from due to its inefficiency. Luka is no defensive powerhouse by any means, but his size alone and him not being as lazy make him a better defender already.

Harden is a much better defender than Luka right now. He had a DRPM of 1.31 to Luka’s -1.66. He also led the league in steals. Their total RPM difference is even more dramatic, 7.32 to 3.11, which is a valid objective reason that ranking Doncic higher at this point is ludicrous.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I don’t think he’s overrated, but if Raps repeat without him, it’s got to take away a little away last year, no?

Clippers are a nightmare matchup for Toronto. If that's the matchup, Raptors will lose in 5. Lakers I suppose Raptors have a solid shot. I give Toronto props for being a great regular season team the last 8 years, but they were known for playoff flameouts before last year.

Lowry got the job done last year and deserves all the credit for it, but people are quick to erase his playoff failures.

Interesting to see if he’s gotten a new confidence and has put the monkey totally off his back.

What's interesting is how history revising Raptors fans are with playoff "success" of their role players. For example last year in various rounds Green, Lowry, FVV were invisible at various times. Yet they act like these guys were consistently great all of the playoffs.

For example vs the Sixers in 7 games....

FVV 3/24 shooting for the ENTIRE SERIES for an ORTG of 65 (horrendous). He averaged 2 points, 2 assists on 24% TS.
Danny Green put up 9/4 on 37/37/92 shooting splits. Overall he was somewhat efficient, but his impact was low.
Kyle Lowry put up 13/5/6 on 40/26/84. 107 ORTG, -1 total net rating.
Marc Gasol put up 9/6/3 on 42/32/75 shooting splits.

Kawhi 35/10/4/1.5 steals on 53/34/86

I mean Raptors fans love to act like these guys are a monster supporting cast, but if you look at the data... it's basically Kawhi+Siakam, and a random role player or two having a huge game once in a while. In the finals FVV was huge, as was Lowry... but their overall play series to series was terribly inconsistent.

Sure, they have the vets+depth to consistently win 55+ games in the regular season with or without Kawhi. They also don't have that legit go to superstar to get over the hump pre or post Kawhi.

Clippers supporting cast of George, Harrell, Beverley, Zubac, Green, Shamet, Lou Will, Marcus Morris, Reggie Jackson is significantly better.

[Johnny Bball]

Clippers are a nightmare matchup for Toronto. If that's the matchup, Raptors will lose in 5. Lakers I suppose Raptors have a solid shot. I give Toronto props for being a great regular season team the last 8 years, but they were known for playoff flameouts before last year.

Lowry got the job done last year and deserves all the credit for it, but people are quick to erase his playoff failures.

Interesting to see if he’s gotten a new confidence and has put the monkey totally off his back.

What's interesting is how history revising Raptors fans are with playoff "success" of their role players. For example last year in various rounds Green, Lowry, FVV were invisible at various times. Yet they act like these guys were consistently great all of the playoffs.

For example vs the Sixers in 7 games....

FVV 3/24 shooting for the ENTIRE SERIES for an ORTG of 65 (horrendous). He averaged 2 points, 2 assists on 24% TS.
Danny Green put up 9/4 on 37/37/92 shooting splits. Overall he was somewhat efficient, but his impact was low.
Kyle Lowry put up 13/5/6 on 40/26/84. 107 ORTG, -1 total net rating.
Marc Gasol put up 9/6/3 on 42/32/75 shooting splits.

Kawhi 35/10/4/1.5 steals on 53/34/86

I mean Raptors fans love to act like these guys are a monster supporting cast, but if you look at the data... it's basically Kawhi+Siakam, and a random role player or two having a huge game once in a while. In the finals FVV was huge, as was Lowry... but their overall play series to series was terribly inconsistent.

Sure, they have the vets+depth to consistently win 55+ games in the regular season with or without Kawhi. They also don't have that legit go to superstar to get over the hump pre or post Kawhi.

Clippers supporting cast of George, Harrell, Beverley, Zubac, Green, Shamet, Lou Will, Marcus Morris, Reggie Jackson is significantly better.

Ii can look at the data which is their record this year and without Leonard last year. Honestly... you're a real piece of work. Next stick to building up your heroes instead of trashing everyone else to do it.

[Woodsanity]

I don’t think he’s overrated, but if Raps repeat without him, it’s got to take away a little away last year, no?

It would though it is highly doubtful the Raptors win it. No offense to Raptors fans.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Lowry got the job done last year and deserves all the credit for it, but people are quick to erase his playoff failures.

Interesting to see if he’s gotten a new confidence and has put the monkey totally off his back.

What's interesting is how history revising Raptors fans are with playoff "success" of their role players. For example last year in various rounds Green, Lowry, FVV were invisible at various times. Yet they act like these guys were consistently great all of the playoffs.

For example vs the Sixers in 7 games....

FVV 3/24 shooting for the ENTIRE SERIES for an ORTG of 65 (horrendous). He averaged 2 points, 2 assists on 24% TS.
Danny Green put up 9/4 on 37/37/92 shooting splits. Overall he was somewhat efficient, but his impact was low.
Kyle Lowry put up 13/5/6 on 40/26/84. 107 ORTG, -1 total net rating.
Marc Gasol put up 9/6/3 on 42/32/75 shooting splits.

Kawhi 35/10/4/1.5 steals on 53/34/86

I mean Raptors fans love to act like these guys are a monster supporting cast, but if you look at the data... it's basically Kawhi+Siakam, and a random role player or two having a huge game once in a while. In the finals FVV was huge, as was Lowry... but their overall play series to series was terribly inconsistent.

Sure, they have the vets+depth to consistently win 55+ games in the regular season with or without Kawhi. They also don't have that legit go to superstar to get over the hump pre or post Kawhi.

Clippers supporting cast of George, Harrell, Beverley, Zubac, Green, Shamet, Lou Will, Marcus Morris, Reggie Jackson is significantly better.

Ii can look at the data which is their record this year and without Leonard last year. Honestly... you're a real piece of work. Next stick to building up your heroes instead of trashing everyone else to do it.

It's been done already. Hell if you want to really stretch it... the 3 seasons BEFORE Kawhi their record after 70+ games was great too. Are those teams better than this year?? The 2018 Raptors won 59 games, vs 58 in Kawhi's year. The thing is they couldn't get over the Lebron hump and were out in round 2 three years in a row... including back to back SWEEPS by the Cavs. Couldn't even win a game! Not even my cursed Clippers have been swept in the last couple decades. Clippers have as many 2nd round appearances as the Raptors this decade.

What this revisionist history attempts to do is correlate regular season records with zero context, while failing to acknowledge that the Raptors have BEEN a regular season juggernaut for like 5 seasons. The issue with them is the crumbled like a bag of chips in the 2nd round vs Lebron. Having Kawhi gave them a CONSISTENT superstar who could create for himself and dominate a series. Something they never had prior in Derozan+Lowry. Both of those guys would kill it some games, then disappear the next. Kawhi brought it every night.

I'm not trying to rip the Raptors, I'm just really burned out on hearing how much more success he'd have staying with the aging Toronto cast, when his cast in LA is actually better. The playoffs haven't started, but I predict we will both gain more perspective in the next month or two.

[Woodsanity]

I don’t think he’s overrated, but if Raps repeat without him, it’s got to take away a little away last year, no?

Clippers are a nightmare matchup for Toronto. If that's the matchup, Raptors will lose in 5. Lakers I suppose Raptors have a solid shot. I give Toronto props for being a great regular season team the last 8 years, but they were known for playoff flameouts before last year.

Lowry got the job done last year and deserves all the credit for it, but people are quick to erase his playoff failures.

Interesting to see if he’s gotten a new confidence and has put the monkey totally off his back.

Lowry wasn't particularly good in the playoffs. He did better in the later rounds but was pretty putrid early in the playoffs. Overall, his performance wasn't very good from what i remember.

Looking at his stats it also seems to be true, of course Lowry is also a good defender and gives value outside of raw stats but I can't see his performance as anything but mediocre.

15 ppg on 44/36/80 shooting is sub-par for a second best player.

[Salieri]

James Harden is better now (esp defensively) than he was 2 years ago when he led the Rockets to 65 wins and won MVP.

Calling Luka, who won't even finish top 3 in MVP voting, better than Harden ever was is delusional homerism.

Saying Harden is better at defense from 2 years ago is equal to saying he went from abysmal to just horrible. He's only good defensively against posting up, which is a form of offense that coaches are trying to steer away from due to its inefficiency. Luka is no defensive powerhouse by any means, but his size alone and him not being as lazy make him a better defender already.

Also, I don't care about MVPs. That accolade has never been significant to me when it comes to measuring players. And sure, I know the majority of people think Harden is better than Luka. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying I'd rather have Luka today than Harden today. To me, he's a better basketball player who produces better offense than Harden, even though I know Harden is an all time great offensive player and a legit one man army. I just prefer Luka's style, given that their impact on winning is similar. Harden is way more polished and yet Luka leads a more efficient offense. Once Luka improves his shootings percentages and learns how not to make risky passes to cut some unneeded turnovers, it'll be a no contest for everyone. As for now, I'm comfortable knowing I'm in the minority when I say I'd rather have Luka.

Call it homerism if you want given that I've been a Luka fan since his RM days, but it's a bit of a bold move. I'm a Lakers fan and you're a Rockets fan. You shouldn't want to start the homerism conversation IMO. But delusional is out of line, their impact is close enough to understand this is not one sided and there are arguments for picking either player. You can disagree with someone else's opinion on this subject, but you should admit it's at least debatable. I fail to see where's the delusion, honestly.

How is Luka better defensively than harden? have you seen the plays harden makes defensively? Saying he went from abysmal to horrible undermines the tremendous strides that he has made on that end.

There is no guarantee that Luka is going to improve dramatically anymore, especially as teams gameplan for him and start understanding his tendencies. Luka is still too young, but once NBA defenders have played dozens+ games against him they will start knowing how to defend him better, same with coaches.

I don't care about Luka's improvement potential. I'm saying I prefer him today. If he improves even more, good. That is irrelevant to my choice today. And claiming that Luka's youth and inexperience means he's at an advantage now is wrong IMO. LeBron also was a brilliant young player too, for example. Rivals knowing him better didn't slow him down as much as his gained experience and wisdom helped him.

Saying Harden is better at defense from 2 years ago is equal to saying he went from abysmal to just horrible. He's only good defensively against posting up, which is a form of offense that coaches are trying to steer away from due to its inefficiency. Luka is no defensive powerhouse by any means, but his size alone and him not being as lazy make him a better defender already.

Harden is a much better defender than Luka right now. He had a DRPM of 1.31 to Luka’s -1.66. He also led the league in steals. Their total RPM difference is even more dramatic, 7.32 to 3.11, which is a valid objective reason that ranking Doncic higher at this point is ludicrous.

Fair enough. Stats say Harden is a better defensive player or a better overall player. I still like Luka's size defensively, it gives him more versatility. As for total RPM, I have no argument against it other than saying that stat alone doesn't come even close to determining who's a better player. If it were, there would be no need for endless discussions in RealGM.

When I say I prefer Luka as a player, I mean in a vacuum. I don't look at Harden now and see just Harden, I see Harden in the Rockets coached by D'Antoni. Same with Luka. I am of the opinion that no matter the coach and no matter the team, Luka would excel more often than not when compared to Harden.

Again, I don't mind if you think I'm wrong. But saying my opinion is not defensible, delusional or ludicrous is not how I see it.

[Johnny Bball]

What's interesting is how history revising Raptors fans are with playoff "success" of their role players. For example last year in various rounds Green, Lowry, FVV were invisible at various times. Yet they act like these guys were consistently great all of the playoffs.

For example vs the Sixers in 7 games....

FVV 3/24 shooting for the ENTIRE SERIES for an ORTG of 65 (horrendous). He averaged 2 points, 2 assists on 24% TS.
Danny Green put up 9/4 on 37/37/92 shooting splits. Overall he was somewhat efficient, but his impact was low.
Kyle Lowry put up 13/5/6 on 40/26/84. 107 ORTG, -1 total net rating.
Marc Gasol put up 9/6/3 on 42/32/75 shooting splits.

Kawhi 35/10/4/1.5 steals on 53/34/86

I mean Raptors fans love to act like these guys are a monster supporting cast, but if you look at the data... it's basically Kawhi+Siakam, and a random role player or two having a huge game once in a while. In the finals FVV was huge, as was Lowry... but their overall play series to series was terribly inconsistent.

Sure, they have the vets+depth to consistently win 55+ games in the regular season with or without Kawhi. They also don't have that legit go to superstar to get over the hump pre or post Kawhi.

Clippers supporting cast of George, Harrell, Beverley, Zubac, Green, Shamet, Lou Will, Marcus Morris, Reggie Jackson is significantly better.

Ii can look at the data which is their record this year and without Leonard last year. Honestly... you're a real piece of work. Next stick to building up your heroes instead of trashing everyone else to do it.

It's been done already. Hell if you want to really stretch it... the 3 seasons BEFORE Kawhi their record after 70+ games was great too. Are those teams better than this year?? The 2018 Raptors won 59 games, vs 58 in Kawhi's year. The thing is they couldn't get over the Lebron hump and were out in round 2 three years in a row... including back to back SWEEPS by the Cavs. Couldn't even win a game! Not even my cursed Clippers have been swept in the last couple decades. Clippers have as many 2nd round appearances as the Raptors this decade.

What this revisionist history attempts to do is correlate regular season records with zero context, while failing to acknowledge that the Raptors have BEEN a regular season juggernaut for like 5 seasons. The issue with them is the crumbled like a bag of chips in the 2nd round vs Lebron. Having Kawhi gave them a CONSISTENT superstar who could create for himself and dominate a series. Something they never had prior in Derozan+Lowry. Both of those guys would kill it some games, then disappear the next. Kawhi brought it every night.

I'm not trying to rip the Raptors, I'm just really burned out on hearing how much more success he'd have staying with the aging Toronto cast, when his cast in LA is actually better. The playoffs haven't started, but I predict we will both gain more perspective in the next month or two.

This post is insane rambling and that's all you are doing. I was talking about none of it and you are arguing with nobody just to engage in your favorite pastime of trashing the raptors while saying you aren't. Unreal.

Do me a favour, and get 2 more strikes again quickly so I can enjoy threads again like the last few months.

And if he doesn't win with a better supporting cast you claim, I will never stop.