Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets?

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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#21 » by thebigbird » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:05 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:You do know Kawhi had one of the best play-off runs ever, right?

Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I’m talking about. Kawhi ‘playoff run’ last year is not even close to one of the best ever. Don’t take my word for it. Go check out the player comparison board and see person after person tell you the same thing.


Your argument is boiled down to "I don't think it is true but I don't have to prove it".

Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#22 » by thebigbird » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:05 pm

Tobias Harris has scored more points in his career than Kawhi Leonard has in his. They came into the league the same year.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#23 » by thebigbird » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:07 pm

Quattro wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Woody Allen wrote:You should actually start watching basketball. He did carry Raptors last year as much as any star in recent history. Saying "Raptors were a 55 team anyway" is tragically shallow.

“You should actually start watching basketball” isn’t an argument. The bolded is truly laughable and doesn’t even warrant a response.

They won the title last year in large part because of their suffocating defense. The Raptors came back this year and went 52-19 without Kawhi, giving up the fewest ppg in the league. They have the 2nd ranked defense in the nba.


Nah. He’s right. Nobody could have watched that run last year and concluded that the Raptors would have done just as well without Kawhi.

“Not done as well” is enormously different from “carried as much as any star in recent memory.” The Warriors wouldn’t have done just as well with Kevin Durant in 2017 and 2018, but it’d be laughably to say he carried them.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#24 » by jimmy keys » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:09 pm

Woody Allen wrote:You should actually start watching basketball. He did carry Raptors in last year's playoffs as much as any star in recent history. Saying "Raptors were a 55 team anyway" is tragically shallow.


The 2016 Cavs say hi.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#25 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:24 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I’m talking about. Kawhi ‘playoff run’ last year is not even close to one of the best ever. Don’t take my word for it. Go check out the player comparison board and see person after person tell you the same thing.


Your argument is boiled down to "I don't think it is true but I don't have to prove it".

Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.


Didn't you just say you didn't to throw Kawhi under the bus to hype LeBron but here you are comparing them again.

When I said Kawhi had one of the best runs that did not mean LeBron didn't have some of the best runs ever himself. If anything his 2018 run is the best non-title winning play-off run ever by a good margin. See? You don't have to bash one to praise the other.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#26 » by Pg81 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:26 pm

TheNG wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:Yeah that 55 win Toronto team looked so great in the playoffs that year. They needed a guy to get over the hump and that guy was Kawhi.

Why does Kawhi make so many people so salty? Because he’s denied guys like Curry and Lebron from getting extra rings? Because people still think of him as a system player while totally discounting the strides he made to become a superstar?

I don’t get it.


It must be mostly LeBron fans. There's a very good chance that when both of their career are over, and all the hype will be gone, Kawhi will wear more gold on his fingers, making LeBron's claim to be GOAT absurd at best.

Kawhi has 2 rings as FMVP with 2 different teams that were not the in the 4 main contenders before those season started (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_preseason_odds.html), something that LeBron has never done even once.

Kawhi has 2 Defensive player of the Year awards - something that LeBron has never done even once.

And there's a very good chance that even after playing one of the longest careers, LeBron will finish with only 3 rings, while Kawhi, who has already 2 and is only 29, has a good chance to surpass him, making LeBron's legacy seem much less impressive (letting a player in his era win more rings than him is not a good way to climb the all time ranking).

This, after last season he actually maneuvered the Lakers and LeBron, delaying his decision about where'e he's gonna play, and eventually choosing not only not join them, but to rival them at their home... Some people can get angry by that.


Kawhi has yet to do a carry job which even remotely approaches what LeBron did with his first Cavs stint. So far Kawhi has been on loaded team after loaded team. He is a great player, but even if he wins 3 more rings like that there are still plenty of reasons for LeBron > Kawhi.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
GeorgeMarcus, 17/11/2019
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#27 » by thebigbird » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:37 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Your argument is boiled down to "I don't think it is true but I don't have to prove it".

Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.


Didn't you just say you didn't to throw Kawhi under the bus to hype LeBron but here you are comparing them again.

When I said Kawhi had one of the best runs that did not mean LeBron didn't have some of the best runs ever himself. If anything his 2018 run is the best non-title winning play-off run ever by a good margin. See? You don't have to bash one to praise the other.

You said I didn’t have anything to prove my argument that it wasn’t one of the best ever, so I used the comparison to prove it. Kawhi’s playoff last year was similarly to LeBron’s career averages statistically, and lebron is just one of many great players to have played.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#28 » by r0drig0lac » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:37 pm

no, sorry.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#29 » by Bornstellar » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:41 pm

Shock Defeat wrote:1. Gets drafted by Pop, gets to play on the best franchise in the NBA. Wins the title as a 4TH best player while averaging 18 PPG while people act like he "locked down" LeBron by letting him average 28 PPG on 57% shooting :roll:
2. Has one "superstar" year in 2016/17, while still playing on with a GREAT supporting cast. Remember, the Spurs beat the Rockets in the Playoffs by 39 WITHOUT Kawhi. This proves that the Spurs were really good with or without Kawhi.
3. QUITS on the Spurs the following year for no reason. Decides to sulk, completely thwarting the Spurs franchise and making legends like Manu, Parker, etc. call him out for being selfish.
4. Joins the Raptors, gets credit for "carrying" the team to a championship. Despite the fact that the Raptors are already a 55 win team W/O him. Not to mention he wins a title against a Warriors team that's missing KD and Klay.
5. Still runs away and goes to sunny LA, but then tampers by prying Paul George away from OKC.

TLDR: This guy picks his spots, has one great year every 4 years, load manages games, quits on teams, always plays on stacked rosters that are really good without him. Diva attitude. How does anyone respect him as a NBA player?

100% agree with all of this tbh
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#30 » by PistolPeteJR » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:47 pm

Pg81 wrote:Kawhi has been a top 3 player for many years now.


He's a top-3 player this year, but not many years. That I don't agree with.

LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden.... those are examples of guys in the past 5 years that have arguably (depending on who you got) been top-3 for MANY years. Kawhi was top-3 last year, this year isn't concluded yet to make a call on it thus far (he's on track though), he was top-3 in '17. That makes two years so far. That's not many.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#31 » by Sgt Major » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:48 pm

No. MVP, when he wants to be one.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#32 » by C3H6N6O6 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:52 pm

He is not overrated for this season but he is overrated when it comes to all time rankings.
He is currently a top 3 player but isn't even in top 25 all time. The biggest biased argument I see by Kawhi fans is when they include his 2014 FMVP when comparing him to all time great players.

The biggest thing missing from Kawhi's resume is MVP which he is never going to win even though he has had great chances with Curry and KD missing this year. He just load manages too much and that should be taken into account as all the teams he has been on have been built to be at least very good without him from Spurs to Raptors to Clippers.

KD and Kawhi are 2 players who have been blessed to have never been on a bad team from almost the start of their careers. KD is ranked higher because he was elite from the start whereas Kawhi has been elite for 3-4 years. Tim Duncan was the last player who was as lucky as them. Even Kobe had to play with bad players for a couple of years.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#33 » by bronxknicksfan1 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:04 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I’m talking about. Kawhi ‘playoff run’ last year is not even close to one of the best ever. Don’t take my word for it. Go check out the player comparison board and see person after person tell you the same thing.


Your argument is boiled down to "I don't think it is true but I don't have to prove it".

Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.


So, how about Dirk's championship run? I'd consider that one of the greatest runs in history and looking at the same metrics...all of Kawhi's numbers are better.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#34 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:05 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.


Didn't you just say you didn't to throw Kawhi under the bus to hype LeBron but here you are comparing them again.

When I said Kawhi had one of the best runs that did not mean LeBron didn't have some of the best runs ever himself. If anything his 2018 run is the best non-title winning play-off run ever by a good margin. See? You don't have to bash one to praise the other.

You said I didn’t have anything to prove my argument that it wasn’t one of the best ever, so I used the comparison to prove it. Kawhi’s playoff last year was similarly to LeBron’s career averages statistically, and lebron is just one of many great players to have played.


LeBron is not "just" one of many greats. Only MJ and arguably Kareem had comparable numbers in the play-offs.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#35 » by bronxknicksfan1 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:15 pm

Kawhi isn't overrated. If anything, this praise well deserved considering he was being counted out after his injury, mishandling of the Spurs situation and the load management in Toronto prior to the playoffs.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#36 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:23 pm

thebigbird wrote:He is very overrated. The Toronto Raptors are a very good team, as shown by this season. 17-5 last year without Kawhi. 52-19 this season without him. Yet by how some people talk, you’d think he carried a bunch of scrubs to the finals.

He’s propped up by anti-LeBron folks to try to diminish lebron. There is a huge overlap between Kawhi’s stans and LeBron haters.


Look at the Raptors record the 3-4 years prior to Kawhi too? Didn't stop them from being early playoff exits regularly. Kawhi didn't necessarily make them a better regular season team. What he did was put them over the hump in playoffs.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#37 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:25 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I’m talking about. Kawhi ‘playoff run’ last year is not even close to one of the best ever. Don’t take my word for it. Go check out the player comparison board and see person after person tell you the same thing.


Your argument is boiled down to "I don't think it is true but I don't have to prove it".

Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.


Lebron is in the discussion as the GOAT. Why is Kawhi who's like 7 years younger, and only been a superstar 3-4 years being compared to that? Kawhi is better NOW arguably, but did anyone here say Kawhi is better than peak Lebron? I don't think that's a common argument. The bottom line is Kawhi isn't underrated at all, and comparing him to Lebron doesn't change the fact that he's an MVP caliber 2 way player that just wins.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#38 » by nickhx2 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:29 pm

saw thread title
saw who OP was

makes sense
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#39 » by Danny1616 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:08 pm

He has definitely benefited from being on the Spurs and getting traded to a 59 win team in the Raptors. It is also true he's a on stacked ass team right now with the Clippers.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that he's still easily a top 3 player when healthy.
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Re: Is Kawhi overrated and undeserving of all the praise he gets? 

Post#40 » by Tacoma » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:14 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Pot meets kettle.

LeBron’s playoff averages:
Ppg: 28.9
Rpg: 8.9
Apg: 7.1
Spg: 1.8
Bpg: 1.0
FG%: 49.1%

PER: 28.3
WS/48: .244
BPM: 10.2

Kawhi’s “one of the best playoff runs ever”:
Ppg: 30.5
Rpg: 9.1
Apg: 3.9
Spg: 1.7
Bpg: 0.7
FG%: 49%

PER: 27.9
WS/48: .249
BPM: 10.1

You want to proclaim Kawhi’s ‘playoff run’ last year as one of the best in the history of the nba when it wasn’t even better than LeBron’s playoff averages. It’s ok to admit that Kawhi has been lucky enough to be placed in good situations throughout his career.


Didn't you just say you didn't to throw Kawhi under the bus to hype LeBron but here you are comparing them again.

When I said Kawhi had one of the best runs that did not mean LeBron didn't have some of the best runs ever himself. If anything his 2018 run is the best non-title winning play-off run ever by a good margin. See? You don't have to bash one to praise the other.

You said I didn’t have anything to prove my argument that it wasn’t one of the best ever, so I used the comparison to prove it. Kawhi’s playoff last year was similarly to LeBron’s career averages statistically, and lebron is just one of many great players to have played.


Seems to me your comparative stats actually proved yourself wrong. We're talking one of the best, not the best. If you posit that LeBron is one of the best and your comparison stats show that Kawhi's 2019 stats fall in line with LeBron's, then it follows that Kawhi's 2019 playoff performance must be one of the best, per of your comparative stats and as Dutchball97 asserted.

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