Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#161 » by timO » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:12 pm

loserX wrote:
timO wrote:He will not, still 4/10, he needs two more chips.


By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


rings of russell are equal to rings of KD

USELESSS :lol:

6 Rings of Jordan are for real, the 6 finals lebron loses are real too :lol:
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#162 » by loserX » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:14 pm

timO wrote:
loserX wrote:
timO wrote:He will not, still 4/10, he needs two more chips.


By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


rings of russell are equal to rings of KD

USELESSS :lol:

Rings of Jordan are for real, lebron 6 finals lost too :lol:


Oh okay, I didn't realize you were going to back it up with such sound logic. Rings mean everything, except when they don't. Got it.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#163 » by lakerz12 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:16 pm

loserX wrote:
timO wrote:He will not, still 4/10, he needs two more chips.


By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


Only if you consider all rings equal. And why would you do that?

People consider Jordan and LeBron's rings to be relatively equal in value because they played against similar levels of competition, and each had support from other All Stars, etc.

Russell played in an entirely different/weaker league that e.g. only had 8 teams in the entire league.

So bringing Russell into the discussion is a straw man argument. You can call him the early league GOAT.

But in terms of modern GOAT and overall GOAT (When the NBA was actually developed and strong in terms of talent/competition) Russell cannot even be in the discussion. Which is why no one puts him as #1 despite his 11 rings.

We use Jordan's rings against LeBron because Jordan's rings were equally as impressive as LeBron's. Best player on the team, 6X Finals' MVP, huge stats, clutch moments etc.

You don't see us using Robert Horry's rings against LeBron because they obviously are not the same in value...
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#164 » by timO » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:17 pm

loserX wrote:
timO wrote:
loserX wrote:
By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


rings of russell are equal to rings of KD

USELESSS :lol:

Rings of Jordan are for real, lebron 6 finals lost too :lol:


Oh okay, I didn't realize you were going to back it up with such sound logic. Rings mean everything, except when they don't. Got it.


ok rings for 1960 are equal to 90s,

rings of KD gsw are equal to the ring of Dirk

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#165 » by loserX » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:19 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
loserX wrote:
timO wrote:He will not, still 4/10, he needs two more chips.


By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


Only if you consider all rings equal. And why would you do that?

People consider Jordan and LeBron's rings to be relatively equal in value because they played against similar levels of competition, and each had support from other All Stars, etc.

Russell played in an entirely different/weaker league that e.g. only had 8 teams in the entire league.

So bringing Russell into the discussion is a straw man argument. You can call him the early league GOAT.

But in terms of modern GOAT and overall GOAT (When the NBA was actually developed and strong in terms of talent/competition) Russell cannot even be in the discussion. Which is why no one puts him as #1 despite his 11 rings.


In other words, context matters when it comes to comparing Jordan and Russell, and you need to look at things like SRS, teammates, historical context, the state of the league, etc.

But when it comes to comparing Jordan and LeBron, that all goes out in the window in favour of "eh, close enough, 6>3".

If not all rings are equal, then let's stop treating all rings as equal when it supports our argument.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#166 » by lakerz12 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:22 pm

loserX wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
loserX wrote:
By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


Only if you consider all rings equal. And why would you do that?

People consider Jordan and LeBron's rings to be relatively equal in value because they played against similar levels of competition, and each had support from other All Stars, etc.

Russell played in an entirely different/weaker league that e.g. only had 8 teams in the entire league.

So bringing Russell into the discussion is a straw man argument. You can call him the early league GOAT.

But in terms of modern GOAT and overall GOAT (When the NBA was actually developed and strong in terms of talent/competition) Russell cannot even be in the discussion. Which is why no one puts him as #1 despite his 11 rings.


In other words, context matters when it comes to comparing Jordan and Russell, and you need to look at things like SRS, teammates, historical context, the state of the league, etc.

But when it comes to comparing Jordan and LeBron, that all goes out in the window in favour of "eh, close enough, 6>3".

If not all rings are equal, then let's stop treating all rings as equal when it supports our argument.


I'm not throwing anything out of the window.

I just gave you specific reasons as to why Jordan's rings are considered relatively equal to LeBron's. (Added in: Best player on the team, Finals' MVP, huge stats, clutch moments, etc.)

We can do an in depth look at the value of Jordan vs. LeBron's rings based on all of the context.

Won't LeBron's rings have to be considered much greater in value given that he only has 3/4 vs. 6?

It seems like you're making the assumption that LeBron's rings have more value than Jordan's rings, but you haven't provided any evidence for that idea.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#167 » by loserX » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:25 pm

lakerz12 wrote:We can do an in depth look at the value of Jordan vs. LeBron's rings based on all of the context.


This is all I'm asking. Maybe Jordan still ends up on top, I'm not arguing that. I'm just asking that we apply the same scrutiny to arguments in our favour as we do to arguments against us. The ol' "BUT 6>3!!!" argument never does that.

lakerz12 wrote:Won't LeBron's rings have to be considered much greater in value given that he only has 3/4 vs. 6?

It seems like you're making the assumption that LeBron's rings have more value than Jordan's rings, but you haven't provided any evidence for that idea.


I'm not assuming that. I'm saying that it is possible for a player to be greater despite fewer rings, and that "more rings = more better" is a pretty lousy standard to use, especially if it's the only one.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#168 » by VanWest82 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:26 pm

What MJ proved in the flu game and in 98 is that he was still the best even when he wasn't the best anymore. Bill Russell kind of did that too. That's the final level.

Lebron once again stacked the deck bringing on AD who has been incredible. We'll have to wait and see what kind of adversity they face going forward. Clips choked. Houston quit. Denver looks like the perfect match up for Lakers. I don't think Bron winning a fourth title puts him above Jordan.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#169 » by Fantastik_Goat » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:26 pm

As a huge Scottie Pippen fan, I love LeBron fans. They are the only ones who agree with me that Pip Is better then Wade, AD, and Kyrie.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#170 » by lakerz12 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:29 pm

loserX wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:We can do an in depth look at the value of Jordan vs. LeBron's rings based on all of the context.


This is all I'm asking. Maybe Jordan still ends up on top, I'm not arguing that. I'm just asking that we apply the same scrutiny to arguments in our favour as we do to arguments against us. The ol' "BUT 6>3!!!" argument never does that.

lakerz12 wrote:Won't LeBron's rings have to be considered much greater in value given that he only has 3/4 vs. 6?

It seems like you're making the assumption that LeBron's rings have more value than Jordan's rings, but you haven't provided any evidence for that idea.


I'm not assuming that. I'm saying that it is possible for a player to be greater despite fewer rings, and that "more rings = more better" is a pretty lousy standard to use, especially if it's the only one.


Well if you watched both Jordan's and LeBron's careers, it is pretty clear that Jordan's accomplishments and rings were VERY impressive. Just as impressive if not more impressive than LeBron's.

It's not like Jordan just lucked into his Titles and got carrier in the Finals' or something.

So everyone kind of intuitively values both Jordan and LeBron's rings fairly equally.

I'm sure there is an in depth comparison in the Player comparison board, if not we could do one. It's obviously always going to be subjective and difficult to assign values to different parts of the context (e.g. how do we really rank competition or teammates), but I think you'd find the rings were pretty equal in value.

Maybe LeBron has the best ring in 2016, but I doubt it's enough to overcome the difference in total rings. But we'd have to look very deeply into it, obviously. :)

I agree with you, I'm definitely in favor of not having sloppy one liners without context.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#171 » by The4thHorseman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:41 pm

timO wrote:
loserX wrote:
timO wrote:He will not, still 4/10, he needs two more chips.


By this argument, Bill Russell is the GOAT, why are we even talking about Jordan at all, maybe if he had five more chips.

This argument really needs to be buried and forgotten. Either:
- you can be a better GOAT candidate despite having fewer rings (in which case Jordan's ring count shouldn't be used so conclusively against LeBron)
- or you can't (in which case Russell's ring count needs to be used conclusively against everybody).


rings of russell are equal to rings of KD

USELESSS :lol:

6 Rings of Jordan are for real, the 6 finals lebron loses are real too :lol:

Jordan needing 2yrs away from the league in his prime to rest up is real, James playing in his 17 consecutive season is real.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#172 » by VanWest82 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:43 pm

I don't agree that Lebron has the best ring or that 2016 was even his best. I prefer his second title where they actually had to face adversity on the way to the Finals, he had to deal with young Kawhi, and Tim Duncan wasn't hobbling around on a partially torn MCL like Steph in 2016. They also won 66 games that year. It's pretty impressive.

MJ's 96 title remains the best. He dominated the league the entire year while playing out of the post, something we'd never seen from a guard. The only thing that comes close to that season is when Curry's Warriors were wrecking the league though obviously they weren't the same after Curry hurt his knee.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#173 » by The Explorer » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:44 pm

Lebron James is a great player, but he's not going to be considered the GOAT by the majority of the public, nor should he. He's had too many blemishes and weaknesses to be best ever. Those aren't going away by winning another title.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#174 » by FlatearthZorro » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:44 pm

Nope. Not even close.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#175 » by X_O_Z » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:47 pm

So reason Jordan win championships was due to Pippen..yup that is very true. In fact, if if it wasn't for Jordan, Pippen wouldn't been as good as he was. Jordan helped pushed Pippen to become the best he could be, Jordan was already GREAt before Pippen came in. Jordan made his team better due to that mentality of winning.

Lebron is a different story. Instead of wanting to push the other players to become great like him, he instead either joins the team that has the GREAT players, or he would put the Franchise In that searching for All Star mode to pair him up (AD, Kevin Love, etc). This what really sperate the Greatest players of all time and the One of the Greats..Lebron is one of the Greats, but not better than Jordan.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#176 » by xAIRNESSx » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:47 pm

It will be so satisfying if the Lakers can pull this out.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#177 » by Johnny Tomala » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:54 pm

Nope. LBJ winning title on the only team in the league with two Top 7 players is not some great achievement. TBH if he doesn't win the title this season, it will be a colossal failure.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#178 » by Chandan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:01 pm

still not watching Space Jam
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#179 » by Jonny Blaze » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:03 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:
Jonny Blaze wrote:
Baronious wrote:The 3-6 finals record talk is the dumbest argument I've ever seen. We're penalizing LeBron because he overachieved and made it to the finals when his team had no business of being there? I guess he should have lost in the first round like Jordan did. That seems to be a bigger achievement in people's eyes... 2011 is the only year you can hold against him. That's it.

Jordan never had to face an all time great time like the warriors or 2014 SAS. He never had a finals appearance where both Pippen and Rodman were injured as well...

Let's also not forget Bulls won 55 games WITHOUT Jordan in 94 and almost made it to the conference finals without him. The only Lebron teams I can think of that may have been able to achieve that feat is the 2011 & 2012 Miami teams because of D Wade. Bulls winning 55 games without him and being 1 game away from the conference finals just shows how great of a team Jordan had around him. It would be fair to say he always had the superior squad in the finals. 6/6 record under those circumstances doesn't really surprise me...


What year did you start watching the NBA?

Lebron fans are something else.

Every season From 2010 until 2016 Lebron James played on the most talented team in the NBA. He did this while also playing in a horrible Eastern Conference.

When did his teams overachieve? a 3-6 record in the Finals is garbage with the amount of talent LBJ played with.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

The 2007 and 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavericks, and 2015 and 16 Golden St Warriors were not any better than any of teams that Jordan defeated in the 1990's.

The 17 and 18 Warriors are the only two teams that were clearly better than any team that Jordan faced.

The 2010, 2015 and 2016 Cavs best team in the league???

2014 Heat best team???

Thanks for the laugh.


You just made my point. :lol:

Since you won't answer what year you started watching the NBA....and based on the maturity of your retorts I am going to assume you were born in something like 95 or 96, and probably started following the NBA around the time Lebron entered the league.

You most likely never watched Michael Jordan play.

All of those teams prior to the start of the season where considered the most TALENTED team in the NBA. But all of them got smoked. None of them ended up being that great.



Every Lebron fan loves to rewrite history because their boo thang has lost so much in the Finals.....


The Cleveland Cavaliers led by Lebron James, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love were the pre-season favorite to win the 2015 and 2016 NBA Finals.

The Golden St Warriors were what the Miami Heat were supposed to be.

To the Lebron fans:
8 years ago I honestly thought that Lebron was going to dominate the 2010's like Jordan did in the 1990's when some of the elite talent fell off and retired.......and then the Golden St Warriors happened.

Its pretty obvious why you LBJ super fans have such a dislike of the Warriors and Kevin Durant. Its ruined your narrative of Lebron being this ultimate winner.

An ultimate winner who has stacked the deck in his favor his entire career by teaming up with other superstar players has a 3-6 record in the Finals.....with 2007, 2011, 2014, 2017 and 2018 not being close at all.



Lebron has a losing record in the Finals to Dirk, Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant and Steph Curry.

That is not GOATISH level stuff....especially compared to Michael Jordan.
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Re: Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title 

Post#180 » by -MetA4- » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:26 pm

loserX wrote:I'm not assuming that. I'm saying that it is possible for a player to be greater despite fewer rings, and that "more rings = more better" is a pretty lousy standard to use, especially if it's the only one.


Okay, but what the hell is on LeBron's resume that would override "6 > 3" rings?

Here's the thing: the deeper you analyze, the more obvious it is that Jordan was the superior player. In all 6 of those finals appearances he was by far the best player on the floor. Scottie Pippen wasn't carrying the team; Jordan was. He even won the last championship on the road with Pippen essentially out with a back injury. Pippen, Rodman, etc. were obviously great players...but who carried the team in the 4th quarter of virtually all of those finals games? They literally all got out of his way and he took over the game.

Like I don't get how you could possibly argue that a guy who got swept twice in the finals is the "GOAT". LeBron looked invisible and defeated on the court for entire stretches during his prime against the Warriors. Find me one time in the finals where Jordan looked defeated or shaken. It never happened...that is why in 6 appearances he won 6 times and was the MVP all 6 times. THAT is what the "GOAT" does. The GOAT goes out and dominates while sick - you think LeBron can do that? The guy who basically quit because the Warriors were too strong for him LMAO?

LeBron does not have the mental resume of Jordan. The team-hopping, the failures, the need to recruit other stars...sorry, but that disqualifies him when the guy you are comparing him to has a FLAWLESS resume.

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