Are the Lakers starters "built different"? Averaging 20% less fouls a minute than opposing starters

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1. LeBron has always been a low foul player, even before he came to the Lakers. He seldom gambles for on ball steals on perimeter players and is generally content sagging off a bit, letting guys shoot and using his length to contest.

2. Davis has been averaging about 3 fouls since the first round, which is actually quite a bit. The reason it isn't more, or rather foul trouble early, is because he typically spends a lot of time guarding one dimensional spot up shooters when he plays the 4. See: Jerami Grant, Paul Milsap, Jae Crowder, PJ Tucker, Robert Covington etc..

Moreover, guys like Jokic and Murray are actively hunted by the opposition when they're on offense leading to more fouls, Davis and James are not.

[BelgradeNugget]

Nikola Jokic fouls per game:
RS
season / min / pf
2015-16 / 21.7 / 2.6
2016-17 / 27.9 / 2.9
2017-18 / 32.5 / 2.8
2018-19 / 31.3 / 2.9
2019-20 / 32.0 / 3.0

Playoffs
season / min / pf
2018-19 / 39.8 / 3.9

2019-20 / min / pf
1st round / 37.6 / 3.0
2st round / 37.9 / 3.3
3rd round / 33.4 / 4.6

It looks like Jokic fauled a lot more in the WCF for whatever reason.

[bellabiyel]

just say the game was rigged ..we all know that's what your pointing on..you just change the way you want to say it lol

[WestGOAT]

Very interesting point.

Also interesting counterpoint, apparently his "entire coaching reputation" was built on lies previously until this year?

He has coached in the playoffs 6 years.

In five of those years, his starting 5 averaged more fouls per minute in the playoffs than they did in the regular season.

Would you care to guess which team is the outlier?


Your statement about his 'entire coaching career' being built on teaching teams not to foul really means "his entire coaching career since 2019, when he figured out how to REALLY teach his teams not to foul".

These Lakers starters just built different I guess.

I guess I gotta do the homework for the lazy folks.

Pacers 2011-12 - Top 10 Defense - https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2012-13 - #1 DEFRTGin the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2013-14 - #1 DEFRTG in the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2014-15 - #8 DEFRTG in the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2015-16 - #3 DEFRTG in the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Yeah, Frank Fogel built his reputation on defense.

So he's a great defensive coach, but I was specifically referring to your 2nd point in the same sentence , how he built his reputation on defense AND TEACHING HIS TEAMS NOT TO FOUL.

In every single year, this great defensive coach's team playoff foul / min rate went up ~10% for the starters.

Every year, that is, until he joined the Lakers, when the rate didn't stay the same, no, it actually DECREASED.

I commend your effort in trying to educate people on these forum by providing objective facts, just sad to see so many simply wave it off by saying it's a "conspiracy theory" or "fake news" since they can't accept the truth.

[dreamshake]

1. LeBron has always been a low foul player, even before he came to the Lakers. He seldom gambles for on ball steals on perimeter players and is generally content sagging off a bit, letting guys shoot and using his length to contest.

Yeah, this. People can roll their eyes about LeBron never getting called for fouls, but he is legitimately a very disciplined defender when it comes to not fouling.

-He gets a lot of steals by jumping passing lanes, but as you said he rarely reaches when defending on ball.
-He never bites on pump fakes.
-When he closes out on 3 pt shooters he always closes out short in a low stance to react if players try to drive on the closeout and consequently never picks up fouls from clipping a shooter's hand/arm or getting into his landing space.

There are tangible explanations for his low foul count if people actually pay attention. Obviously all stars get a certain amount of star treatment, but discipline on defense is a real thing that some players are better at than others.

[LesGrossman]

1. LeBron has always been a low foul player, even before he came to the Lakers. He seldom gambles for on ball steals on perimeter players and is generally content sagging off a bit, letting guys shoot and using his length to contest.

Yeah, this. People can roll their eyes about LeBron never getting called for fouls, but he is legitimately a very disciplined defender when it comes to not fouling.

-He gets a lot of steals by jumping passing lanes, but as you said he rarely reaches when defending on ball.
-He never bites on pump fakes.
-When he closes out on 3 pt shooters he always closes out short in a low stance to react if players try to drive on the closeout and consequently never picks up fouls from clipping a shooter's hand/arm or getting into his landing space.

There are tangible explanations for his low foul count if people actually pay attention. Obviously all stars get a certain amount of star treatment, but discipline on defense is a real thing that some players are better at than others.

Yeah too bad we just saw that this isnt reality though. FIrst of all he does actually body up people on D when he goes for a block (everyone else getting called for „contact below“) and i dont understand how its considered legal defense when you literally body check a guy in mid air, he hacks at guys as often documented with his noncalls (see Murray, KD, PG13), and worst of all, he should have a lot more offensive fouls from running over people. As written often, i agree that he doesnt get enough calls himself and has to accept a lot of contact, but if he would have called like everyone else on both ends he‘d foul out at half time. Even though he has played 17 seasons theres a reason he hasnt added a euro step, a fundamental for every wing these days - the reason being that he is simply called for maybe 1 in 10 charges he commits.

[dreamshake]

1. LeBron has always been a low foul player, even before he came to the Lakers. He seldom gambles for on ball steals on perimeter players and is generally content sagging off a bit, letting guys shoot and using his length to contest.

Yeah, this. People can roll their eyes about LeBron never getting called for fouls, but he is legitimately a very disciplined defender when it comes to not fouling.

-He gets a lot of steals by jumping passing lanes, but as you said he rarely reaches when defending on ball.
-He never bites on pump fakes.
-When he closes out on 3 pt shooters he always closes out short in a low stance to react if players try to drive on the closeout and consequently never picks up fouls from clipping a shooter's hand/arm or getting into his landing space.

There are tangible explanations for his low foul count if people actually pay attention. Obviously all stars get a certain amount of star treatment, but discipline on defense is a real thing that some players are better at than others.

Yeah too bad we just saw that this isnt reality though. FIrst of all he does actually body up people on D when he goes for a block (everyone else getting called for „contact below“) and i dont understand how its considered legal defense when you literally body check a guy in mid air, he hacks at guys as often documented with his noncalls (see Murray, KD, PG13), and worst of all, he should have a lot more offensive fouls from running over people. As written often, i agree that he doesnt get enough calls himself and has to accept a lot of contact, but if he would have called like everyone else on both ends he‘d foul out at half time. Even though he has played 17 seasons theres a reason he hasnt added a euro step, a fundamental for every wing these days - the reason being that he is simply called for maybe 1 in 10 charges he commits.

Meh, I'm not gonna bother responding to most of this because I've seen enough posts from you to know where you stand on LeBron, but I will say you're right that there's a reason he doesn't eurostep - it's because he's lethal with his spin move that serves the same purpose as the eurostep.

[BelgradeNugget]

just say the game was rigged ..we all know that's what your pointing on..you just change the way you want to say it lol

No, I'm not saying that. We all know how NBA works. Stars get stars calls. If LeBron runs over Murray or Grant they won't call an offensive foul on LeBron because he is a star. This is how the NBA works. If Howard and Jokic push each other under the basket for a rebound they won't call a foul on Howard because he is a star, not Jokic. If Jokic sets a screen and Caruso falls they will call a foul on Jokic because he is not a star. Caruso is. That is how NBA works. It has nothing to do with Lakers.

[Pennebaker]

LeBron doesn't foul often. That must be a contributing factor.

People don't talk about it much, but LeBron's career average of 1.8 fouls per game is very low for an 6x All-Defensive player. He's like Kawhi Leonard in that regard (1.7).

For comparison, Michael Jordan's career foul average was 2.6. Giannis' is 3.0. Anthony Davis is 2.4. Scottie Pippen is 2.8. Paul George is 2.7. Kobe was 2.5.

Defending without fouling is a skill.

[FlatearthZorro]

Anyone with half a brain and eyes can see what's going on, you don't need a statistical analysis. Just the way the NBA is unfortunately.

Pretty much. I called this 5-6 months ago.

[th87]

The denial here is hilarious from the fans of the very team that was most egregiously gifted a win in Game 6 of 2002.

With a former ref admitting it to the FBI.

With the NBA then taking over and squashing the investigation.

The league is *obviously* skewed. Anyone denying this is delusional or has tied their self-worth so tightly to their team's success that they steadfastly refuse to see it.

[Dupp]

The Lakers are actually huge.

[AdagioPace]

"take that for data" 2020 remix

[vxmike]

LeBron has always been called for a shockingly low number of fouls despite his heavy minutes and physical play.

[aporel18]

[Cubbies2120]

I guess I gotta do the homework for the lazy folks.

Pacers 2011-12 - Top 10 Defense - https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2012-13 - #1 DEFRTGin the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2013-14 - #1 DEFRTG in the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2014-15 - #8 DEFRTG in the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Pacers 2015-16 - #3 DEFRTG in the league https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Yeah, Frank Fogel built his reputation on defense.

So he's a great defensive coach, but I was specifically referring to your 2nd point in the same sentence , how he built his reputation on defense AND TEACHING HIS TEAMS NOT TO FOUL.

In every single year, this great defensive coach's team playoff foul / min rate went up ~10% for the starters.

Every year, that is, until he joined the Lakers, when the rate didn't stay the same, no, it actually DECREASED.

OR.. or.. just entertain this thought for a minute.. let it marinate..

Part of great defense is not fouling. This Lakers team is laden with vets, unlike his previous teams (Orlando was GARBAGE, and Pacers were young).

But I know, foolish of me to use rational thinking.

Ah, I see - so are you abandoning your argument that his "entire coaching reputation" has been built on teaching teams not to foul (since as the stats show, even his GREAT defensive teams started fouling more in the playoffs), but amending it to "He has managed to teach this Lakers team, and only this Lakers team, to foul less in the playoffs"?

Not sure why you're bringing up Orlando teams, I don't believe any one of his Orlando teams made the playoffs. I only looked at years that his teams made the playoffs (6 years total), and compared their regular season fouls/min for starters vs. playoff fouls/min for starters.

Despite much more intense defense being played, these vets just foul less per minute. I haven't found another championship team who can make the same claim (their starters foul less per minute than their regular season numbers). I guess these Lakers just ARE built different than all other championship teams.

[BookerBulls]

Even if you believe that LBJ is an amazing defender and his technique is so good that he just doesn't foul when he plays defense; how he doesn't get called for offensive fouls when he barrels into defenders - dropping his shoulder all the time - is the biggest indicator of how protected he is.

If he was called for even half of the offensive fouls that he should be called for - he would average significantly more fouls, which in turn means he has to play less aggressive defense.

But the NBA won't do anything to upset LeBron - he carries too much weight with the Players association and Player Agents. You don't mess with the Golden Goose.

[Rakkasan]

When you have AD,Dwight, and Javale as rim protectors it's easier to play defense when you know you have that kind of backup. Also, if Jokic didn't make stupid decisions like intentionally fouling a player to stop a fastbreak in the first quarter of a 5-4 game he wouldn't have been in foul trouble. The Lakers have size and LeBron, and they attack the basket like their supposed to, that's the way you're supposed to play the game.

[KrazyP]

Its because of Lebron's greatness.

[Ben-N1ce]

LeBron had gone 4+ games without committing a foul like 3 or 4 times. Obviously that's normal for near 40 minutes a game players.. He will never be in foul trouble 99% of the games the plays. I don't see an advantage.