Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

Moderators: zimpy27, KingDavid, jamaalstar21, infinite11285, BombsquadSammy, ken6199, Domejandro, bwgood77, Dirk

User avatar
Woodsanity
RealGM
Posts: 10,192
And1: 3,710
Joined: Mar 30, 2012
 

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#521 » by Woodsanity » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 pm

trueballer7 wrote:Lebron is right where he was before this, somewhere between top 5 and top 10 and thats generous. No top 5 player would have stacked the deck in his favor so shamelessly, and gotten so many benefits and from the league, his corporate masters, rules, reffs etc only to end up with only 4 titles, 3 of which came in the most unconvincing ways, in 17 years and I seriously doubt anyone within the top 10 would fair worse either.
By the way, ratings were at an all time low. Aint never seen a top 2 player that nobody cared to watch

:lol:
twix2500 wrote:If Lebron went to NY and Melo to Miami, Melo would have a trophy and Lebron would not.

Tiesto_Lakers wrote:The more I watch basketball, the more I realize that Kobe, in his absolute prime (2006-2008), was a top 2 player of all-time, only second to Jordan.
mickie
Pro Prospect
Posts: 904
And1: 382
Joined: Oct 23, 2006
Location: YYZ x MNL

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#522 » by mickie » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:42 pm

1. MJ
2. Kareem



3. LeBron
4. Bill Russell
5. Bird
User avatar
Alize
Senior
Posts: 739
And1: 273
Joined: Jul 26, 2012

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#523 » by Alize » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:20 pm

Okay keep reaching son.
twyzted wrote:
nikster wrote:
trueballer7 wrote: The 2020 NBA Finals nobody watched. Game 6 nobody watched. There must be a reason why you ignore the record drop off in interest that far exceeds all other sports

The drop off is a combination of the pandemic and the BLM messaging. Nothing to do with Lebron


Lebron has 2 worst rated finals ever.
His best is 3 million lower than Jordans worst.
Edit: i looked at the wrong number. It closer to few hundred thousand but his best does not beat Jordans worst.
Lebron has had the best selling jersey for 5 seasons since coming into the league.
Kobe has 6 seasons in 1 decade as the best selling jersey.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app
otwok
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,071
And1: 2,091
Joined: May 19, 2010

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#524 » by otwok » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:39 pm

TheMartian wrote:
Alize wrote:Lebron is the goat. Jordan couldnt do these things at 35.

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?



It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.
twyzted
Senior
Posts: 552
And1: 574
Joined: Jun 01, 2018
       

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#525 » by twyzted » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:09 pm

Alize wrote:Okay keep reaching son.
twyzted wrote:
nikster wrote:The drop off is a combination of the pandemic and the BLM messaging. Nothing to do with Lebron


Lebron has 2 worst rated finals ever.
His best is 3 million lower than Jordans worst.
Edit: i looked at the wrong number. It closer to few hundred thousand but his best does not beat Jordans worst.
Lebron has had the best selling jersey for 5 seasons since coming into the league.
Kobe has 6 seasons in 1 decade as the best selling jersey.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Finals_television_ratings

https://www.interbasket.net/jerseys/nba/top-selling/

Am i reaching? Numbers dont lie.
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness particularly because he couldn't handle criticism well.


freethedevil wrote:Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins
User avatar
Alize
Senior
Posts: 739
And1: 273
Joined: Jul 26, 2012

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#526 » by Alize » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:23 pm

Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.
otwok wrote:
TheMartian wrote:
Alize wrote:Lebron is the goat. Jordan couldnt do these things at 35.

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?



It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
Edrees
RealGM
Posts: 13,209
And1: 7,869
Joined: May 12, 2009
Contact:
         

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#527 » by Edrees » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Sofia wrote:
Floody100 wrote:I’ll give credit where credit is due. If he can win a couple of more titles than he has a chance to surpass MJ but it’s hard for me to give someone the ‘GOAT’ status when they’ve lost more finals than they’ve won, especially when the guy he’s trying to pass has never lost a final.

Real winners lose early.


Yeah, The Clippers were a great success this season since they didn't make it to the finals, but the Miami heat were total choke jobs for losing in the finals.
otwok
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,071
And1: 2,091
Joined: May 19, 2010

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#528 » by otwok » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:29 pm

Alize wrote:Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.
otwok wrote:
TheMartian wrote:
Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?



It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.
Quinjo28
Freshman
Posts: 66
And1: 46
Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#529 » by Quinjo28 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:26 am

For me lebron at highest no.2 lowest no.4 all time rank
User avatar
Alize
Senior
Posts: 739
And1: 273
Joined: Jul 26, 2012

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#530 » by Alize » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:44 am

otwok wrote:
Alize wrote:Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.
otwok wrote:

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.


MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 14,222
And1: 10,127
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#531 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:04 am

Alize wrote:
otwok wrote:
Alize wrote:Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.


MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.
GhosDini
Junior
Posts: 353
And1: 610
Joined: Jan 12, 2020

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#532 » by GhosDini » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:15 am

Alize wrote:Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.
otwok wrote:
TheMartian wrote:
Wasn't Jordan 35 when he won title #6?



It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


Lebron also had a 5 month layoff leading up to the playoffs lol. Im sure Jordan would have looked fresh as well. 35yr old Jordan played 82 games, MVP and 1st team defense, and went right into a grueling playoffs. And in the playoffs he didnt face Tyler Herro and Jimmy Butler. He faced the best Indiana Pacers team ever. Arguably the Jazz best team also.
User avatar
Alize
Senior
Posts: 739
And1: 273
Joined: Jul 26, 2012

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#533 » by Alize » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:04 am

So Michael was in season shape and Lebron was in offseason shape after 5 months without basketball.

No more excuses please, Lebron looked great before the shutdown.
GhosDini wrote:
Alize wrote:Its about the numbers in the playoffs. Jordan was declining while Lebron shows no signs of father time yet.
otwok wrote:

It's such a wierd thing when people say Jordan couldn't do what Lebron did at 35. Jordan played all 82 games + playoffs, i believe he won his 5th MVP award, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, scottie pippen only played 44 games that year, and in the playoffs Pippen only averaged 16 points on 41% shooting, and after pippen in the regular season the third leading scorer was Toni Kukoc at 13 pts/game. The quality of people's critical thinking is astonishingly bad.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app


Lebron also had a 5 month layoff leading up to the playoffs lol. Im sure Jordan would have looked fresh as well. 35yr old Jordan played 82 games, MVP and 1st team defense, and went right into a grueling playoffs. And in the playoffs he didnt face Tyler Herro and Jimmy Butler. He faced the best Indiana Pacers team ever. Arguably the Jazz best team also.


Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app
ThePersianFreak
Suspended
Posts: 1,494
And1: 1,039
Joined: Nov 02, 2012

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#534 » by ThePersianFreak » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:08 am

To me the absolute peak of LeBron is higher than Jordan (Last 3 games against GSW in 2016 is the highest level of basketball from an individual that i've ever seen). That's because of LeBron's versatility on defense and the way he anchored the D and was the main rim protector for the Cavs. MJ had better defensive career and overall i put him ahead of LeBron defensively, but the ceiling of LeBron is higher defensively and that showed during those Finals. But 3-5 games is a very small sample size and overall i think Jordan had the higher peak (albeit very close to LeBron and Shaq) over the course of a single season. Jordan was a tad more consistent during his prime but LeBron's prime is soooooooo long. Overall i think their Peak/Prime is comparable but the fact that LeBron's prime is almost 14 years gives him the edge.
So, in a vacuume i think their colse to each other.
Then there's the individual and team accolades, Jordan is better here, 2 more rings while being the best player and 1 more regular season MVP. I don't value these type of accolades that high, but when you're comparing 2 players that are so close to each other, you can use these as tiebreakers.
Right now i have Jordan and LeBron as 1a and 1b. If LeBron has another 2 seasons of superstar play and wins another ring as the best player on his team, i can put him ahead of Jordan.

Of course these are all my opinions and im the kinda guy who values peak/prime more that longivity. That's why i have Shaq at number 7 on my list (Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Magic, Russell,Duncan, Shaq). Of course if you value longivity more, Kareem and Duncan have their cases. If you value defense and leadership more, Bill Russell has his case and ... .
User avatar
Alize
Senior
Posts: 739
And1: 273
Joined: Jul 26, 2012

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#535 » by Alize » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:09 pm

ThePersianFreak wrote:To me the absolute peak of LeBron is higher than Jordan (Last 3 games against GSW in 2016 is the highest level of basketball from an individual that i've ever seen). That's because of LeBron's versatility on defense and the way he anchored the D and was the main rim protector for the Cavs. MJ had better defensive career and overall i put him ahead of LeBron defensively, but the ceiling of LeBron is higher defensively and that showed during those Finals. But 3-5 games is a very small sample size and overall i think Jordan had the higher peak (albeit very close to LeBron and Shaq) over the course of a single season. Jordan was a tad more consistent during his prime but LeBron's prime is soooooooo long. Overall i think their Peak/Prime is comparable but the fact that LeBron's prime is almost 14 years gives him the edge.
So, in a vacuume i think their colse to each other.
Then there's the individual and team accolades, Jordan is better here, 2 more rings while being the best player and 1 more regular season MVP. I don't value these type of accolades that high, but when you're comparing 2 players that are so close to each other, you can use these as tiebreakers.
Right now i have Jordan and LeBron as 1a and 1b. If LeBron has another 2 seasons of superstar play and wins another ring as the best player on his team, i can put him ahead of Jordan.

Of course these are all my opinions and im the kinda guy who values peak/prime more that longivity. That's why i have Shaq at number 7 on my list (Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Magic, Russell,Duncan, Shaq). Of course if you value longivity more, Kareem and Duncan have their cases. If you value defense and leadership more, Bill Russell has his case and ... .


Great read. I also place them both at the top.
User avatar
bmurph128
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,455
And1: 3,466
Joined: May 28, 2015
     

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#536 » by bmurph128 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:28 pm

GhosDini wrote:The thing Lebron fans will slowly have to come to terms with is the fact that this is not a real championship. Sure, it will be called one and recognized as such by the media and NBA. But whenever this goat conversation comes up people arent going to respect this title at least the way they do others.

People say there are no asterisks. People also say not all titles are equal. In the grand scheme of things this just might be the lowest quality championship in NBA history.

That's fine. What LeBron can hang his hat on is the fact that we obliterated the West on a neutral court when he and the Lakers would have had home court advantage

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Paddy Brosso
Sophomore
Posts: 161
And1: 64
Joined: Aug 26, 2018
 

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#537 » by Paddy Brosso » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:29 pm

Imo Jordan is still the Goat. Then I have 2 players: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and LeBron James. Those 3 are clearly above the rest.

IF LeBron keeps on playing the way he does for say 2 or 3 more seasons, wins another Ring, wins another MVP, becomes the all-time leading scorer, etc. then he will pass both Kareem and Jordan.
Pg81
Analyst
Posts: 3,550
And1: 1,879
Joined: Apr 20, 2014
 

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#538 » by Pg81 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:33 pm

70sFan wrote:
Alize wrote:
otwok wrote:
What are you even talking about? In all four series if I am not mistaken there was a player who had a higher game score than Lebron. Jordan averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs when he was 35. He also didn't have the luxury of having another 20 ppg scorer on his team. None of this makes sense.


MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.


LeBron was the primary ball handler for his team, MJ was not so not a good comparison.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
GeorgeMarcus, 17/11/2019
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 14,222
And1: 10,127
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#539 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:39 pm

Pg81 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Alize wrote:
MJ averaged 41.5 minutes per game in that playoffs, 32.4 points per game, meanwhile shooting 46.2% from the field and low rebounds at 5 per game and even lower assists per game at 3.5.

Lebron averaged 6 less minutes 36.3 minutes, 27.6 points per game, meanwhile has a fieldgoal percentage of 56%, 10 % more than Jordan, 10!, 37% from three point land ( MJ had poor 30.2%), and here comes the big big difference between the two as 35 year olds: 10.8 rebounds per game and 8.8 assists per game.

How delusional can you be to claim MJ performed nearly as well as Lebron?

If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.


LeBron was the primary ball handler for his team, MJ was not so not a good comparison.

Of course, but that's why comparing raw apg numbers is also unfair. They had different roles on their teams.
Pg81
Analyst
Posts: 3,550
And1: 1,879
Joined: Apr 20, 2014
 

Re: Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though. 

Post#540 » by Pg81 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:42 pm

70sFan wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
70sFan wrote:If you take minutes into consideration, it's fine to keep in mind that pace difference is also meaningfull:

27.6/10.8/8.8 with 4.0 tov in 36.3 mpg -> 37.6/14.6/11.9 with 5.4 tov PER100
32.4/5.1/3.5 with 2.2 tov in 41.5 mpg -> 44.5/7.0/4.8 with 2.9 tov PER100

I'd take James to be sure, but Jordan carried much larger scoring load and his turnover economy was GOAT-level.


LeBron was the primary ball handler for his team, MJ was not so not a good comparison.

Of course, but that's why comparing raw apg numbers is also unfair. They had different roles on their teams.


Pace or possession adjusted is not any better either doubly true when you compare two players from eras which are over 20 years apart. Pace does not affect superstars much in terms of scoring, it affects role players much more.
Jordan is a better scorer than LeBron I doubt anyone apart from some LeBron stans dispute that. LeBron provides more in other areas than MJ though.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
GeorgeMarcus, 17/11/2019

Return to The General Board