Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden?

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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#41 » by norcocredo » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:06 am

They both have their faults but I would take KD 100% of the time over Harden. I don’t care what ’stats’ say.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#42 » by Drygon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:23 am

QMaster wrote:Can't stand KD but he is clearly a tier ahead of Harden. Harden, Westbrook and PG would make a fine playoff big 3 one would think

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How? The stats I provided shows Harden is a better playoff performer than KD (when he played at OKC).

Or is it because KD has 2 rings on GSW?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#43 » by Pelly24 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:23 am

I might have already wrote in this thread, but it’s funny to think how different KD’s legacy would look if he didn’t go to GSW. Harden could’ve gone there and it’s the same result. They’re all in the same tier: curry, harden and KD. All of them are significantly worse than Larry bird, LeBron, magic and obviously MJ.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#44 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:51 am

Lenneth wrote:Rockets run everything through Harden, and Harden has a historically high usage rate.
But, when the game is on the line in a pressure situation, he crumbles basically every single time, and that's one of the big reason why Rockets kept failing in PO.
For example, this is what Harden did last year against Warriors after Durant was out.

Game 5, 4th quarter. Harden played 11 minutes and scored 3 points, shooting 1-2 from the field with 1 technical free throw until the 1-minute mark. He added 2 more points with 18 seconds left when Warriors defended 3 pts line to give up a layup. In contrast, Curry dropped 12 pts in the 4th quarter. After everything happened and went through all those complaining last PO, Rockets finally got a golden chance to beat Warriors with KD out of the picture. Then, Harden completely disappeared in the 4th quarter. It was one of the most strange games I saw.

Game 6, 4th quarter. Harden played 10 minutes and scored 4 points, shooting 2-6 from the field until a 1-minute mark. He added 5 more points at the last minute, but the game was already out of the reach. In contrast, Curry carried Warriors to the conference by dropping 23 pts in the 4th quarter, 33 pts in 2nd half after going scoreless in the first half.

This happens over and over again in PO.

Harden's overall PO number isn't that horrible. But in key moments like the 4th quarter, Harden keeps pulling disappearing acts like that. Until he reverses his performances in key moments, he won't be able to shake up his reputation.


We're going to pretend 2015 WCF didn't happen?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#45 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:52 am

Harden's biggest flaw as a player was not signing with or demanding a trade to a super team.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#46 » by TheProfessor » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:23 am

Drygon wrote:
QMaster wrote:Can't stand KD but he is clearly a tier ahead of Harden. Harden, Westbrook and PG would make a fine playoff big 3 one would think

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How? The stats I provided shows Harden is a better playoff performer than KD (when he played at OKC).

Or is it because KD has 2 rings on GSW?

Because your stats are trash and the way you interpret them are worse, All the stats your using are box score aggregate stats and generally players with a higher USG% tend to better in a box aggregate stats on offense, on defense the only reason Harden doesn't look super terrible on DRPM is because he gambles a lot on defense, this can be seen threw tape and his steal% and block% where as Durant plays fundamental defense which doesn't really get that rewarded on DRPM since again Box score aggregate stats. Also secondly, you mention you only used Durants Prime in OKC hmmm.... then why would you use Durant's first play off run where he clearly played the worst. Now I am not calling you a liar or your disingenuous so lets fix that shall we. Now Durant has a WS of 185, BPM of 6.6 VORP of 7.8 ts of 58%, ohh and all this without mentioning Harden's 33.1% to 30% advantage in USG%.

Now you maybe asking well professor how do we prove this? Well, Durant has beat out Harden in impact stats handily in every year you mentioned. Then you might be well Impact stats have a lot of noise and you would be right, that's I would have to mention that Durant has had a better PIPM and RAPM in every year except 2011-12 where admitted Harden played really well as a 3rd option. 1 year, 2 years,3 years may be a small sample size but 10 out 11 that's kinda a trend.

Now another point, this is just not even statistical. Durant played for the offensive savant that is scott brooks in that period, where as Harden played for the man that has led multiple GOAT offenses with multiple teams.....

This psuedo-analytical posts need to stop, posts like this are the reason advanced stats get such a bad rap in the media.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#47 » by r3demption » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:26 am

Is it fair to include someones sophomore year vs starting a comparison of player b when he has been in the league for some time? Feel like this isn't the greatest comparison and muddies numbers
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#48 » by Southpaw » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:17 am

No because KD can be elite on defense when he's engaged and he's as good or better than Harden on offense. Harden has the advantage on passing while KD has it on rebounding. Swap them for each other and Houston would've had much more success imo. This is not even mentioning KD steps it up in the playoffs and Harden usually shrinks. Imagine Houston's small ball with CP3 and KD instead of Harden.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#49 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:20 am

Southpaw wrote:No because KD can be elite on defense when he's engaged and he's as good or better than Harden on offense. Harden has the advantage on passing while KD has it on rebounding. Swap them for each other and Houston would've had much more success imo. This is not even mentioning KD steps it up in the playoffs and Harden usually shrinks. Imagine Houston's small ball with CP3 and KD instead of Harden.


How much stepping up did KD do in the playoffs before he joined Steph?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#50 » by Prokorov » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:59 pm

Drygon wrote:
QMaster wrote:Can't stand KD but he is clearly a tier ahead of Harden. Harden, Westbrook and PG would make a fine playoff big 3 one would think

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How? The stats I provided shows Harden is a better playoff performer than KD (when he played at OKC).

Or is it because KD has 2 rings on GSW?


if you remove 2 Finals MVP all-time great perfromances then harden is better seems like a really weak argument
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#51 » by Lenneth » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:18 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
Lenneth wrote:Rockets run everything through Harden, and Harden has a historically high usage rate.
But, when the game is on the line in a pressure situation, he crumbles basically every single time, and that's one of the big reason why Rockets kept failing in PO.
For example, this is what Harden did last year against Warriors after Durant was out.

Game 5, 4th quarter. Harden played 11 minutes and scored 3 points, shooting 1-2 from the field with 1 technical free throw until the 1-minute mark. He added 2 more points with 18 seconds left when Warriors defended 3 pts line to give up a layup. In contrast, Curry dropped 12 pts in the 4th quarter. After everything happened and went through all those complaining last PO, Rockets finally got a golden chance to beat Warriors with KD out of the picture. Then, Harden completely disappeared in the 4th quarter. It was one of the most strange games I saw.

Game 6, 4th quarter. Harden played 10 minutes and scored 4 points, shooting 2-6 from the field until a 1-minute mark. He added 5 more points at the last minute, but the game was already out of the reach. In contrast, Curry carried Warriors to the conference by dropping 23 pts in the 4th quarter, 33 pts in 2nd half after going scoreless in the first half.

This happens over and over again in PO.

Harden's overall PO number isn't that horrible. But in key moments like the 4th quarter, Harden keeps pulling disappearing acts like that. Until he reverses his performances in key moments, he won't be able to shake up his reputation.


We're going to pretend 2015 WCF didn't happen?


Same 2015 WCF, where James Harden was playing so badly in an elimination game, so he was benched and Josh Smith, Cory Brewer and Travor Ariza saved the day series?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#52 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:25 pm

Lenneth wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Lenneth wrote:Rockets run everything through Harden, and Harden has a historically high usage rate.
But, when the game is on the line in a pressure situation, he crumbles basically every single time, and that's one of the big reason why Rockets kept failing in PO.
For example, this is what Harden did last year against Warriors after Durant was out.

Game 5, 4th quarter. Harden played 11 minutes and scored 3 points, shooting 1-2 from the field with 1 technical free throw until the 1-minute mark. He added 2 more points with 18 seconds left when Warriors defended 3 pts line to give up a layup. In contrast, Curry dropped 12 pts in the 4th quarter. After everything happened and went through all those complaining last PO, Rockets finally got a golden chance to beat Warriors with KD out of the picture. Then, Harden completely disappeared in the 4th quarter. It was one of the most strange games I saw.

Game 6, 4th quarter. Harden played 10 minutes and scored 4 points, shooting 2-6 from the field until a 1-minute mark. He added 5 more points at the last minute, but the game was already out of the reach. In contrast, Curry carried Warriors to the conference by dropping 23 pts in the 4th quarter, 33 pts in 2nd half after going scoreless in the first half.

This happens over and over again in PO.

Harden's overall PO number isn't that horrible. But in key moments like the 4th quarter, Harden keeps pulling disappearing acts like that. Until he reverses his performances in key moments, he won't be able to shake up his reputation.


We're going to pretend 2015 WCF didn't happen?


Same 2015 WCF, where James Harden was playing so badly in an elimination game, so he was benched and Josh Smith, Cory Brewer and Travor Ariza saved the day series?


I meant 2016 WCF. The one where KD choked away a 3-1 lead and then promptly signed with the team that beat him.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#53 » by Run DLC » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:53 pm

KD is a solid defender, but I wouldn’t say he’s elite. Neither one of them have won All-Defensive 1st team or All-Defensive teams. KD is still a more efficient player and has a greater impact than Harden. However, Harden is still a better playmaker and floor general.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#54 » by Vladimir777 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:30 pm

LOUiS-D wrote:If people are questioning whether an MVP and future hall of famer is better than you, you're probably pretty damn good. They're both masters. I have no shade to throw.


Yeah, they're both damn good basketball players. It's funny how often Hall of Fame-level players are called "chokers" or people on here say they "suck," when in actuality they are all-time players. I mean, maybe it's just me, but I like appreciating players rather than bringing them down.

Then again, I kinda get having an emotional bias against a player. I definitely had that with Steph Curry, even though he's clearly a great player. Such is life, I guess.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#55 » by benson13 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:47 pm

Drygon wrote:
Optms wrote:Difference is KD is an offensive wizard with a bag of offensive tricks that make him nearly impossible to defend. James Harden on the other hand is a 3-trick pony: 3's, layups, flops. That's it.


KD was only impossible to defend at GSW because he played next to Steph Curry. His efficiency got inflated thanks to it.

Compared to what KD did in OKC, Harden has better TS% despite KD's points were massively assisted.


Durant played four seasons with the Thunder where his TS% was higher than Harden's best season in Houston.

I'm also lost on why Durant's buckets being assisted is a knock on him. Why? Allowing a system to make things easier on you shouldn't be a knock on a player. The fact that Harden has refused to do so is a source of criticism, and it's a big reason why he's been such a failure in relative terms. The man forced Chris Paul into a spot up shooting role instead of letting CP make the game easier for him.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#56 » by Anfernee1 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:57 pm

I do not get why people say that Durant's titles are a total joke? Isn't the goal to win a championship?
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#57 » by BarbaGrizz » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:06 pm

Forget stats, just watch them play.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#58 » by kazyv » Yesterday 8:25 am

benson13 wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Optms wrote:Difference is KD is an offensive wizard with a bag of offensive tricks that make him nearly impossible to defend. James Harden on the other hand is a 3-trick pony: 3's, layups, flops. That's it.


KD was only impossible to defend at GSW because he played next to Steph Curry. His efficiency got inflated thanks to it.

Compared to what KD did in OKC, Harden has better TS% despite KD's points were massively assisted.


Durant played four seasons with the Thunder where his TS% was higher than Harden's best season in Houston.

I'm also lost on why Durant's buckets being assisted is a knock on him.
Why? Allowing a system to make things easier on you shouldn't be a knock on a player. The fact that Harden has refused to do so is a source of criticism, and it's a big reason why he's been such a failure in relative terms. The man forced Chris Paul into a spot up shooting role instead of letting CP make the game easier for him.


huh? because the highest level of offense is always going to be creating for yourself and your teammates. not all 3 point percentages and TS stats are made the same for this very reason. we differentiate between the stars and the 3 and D players. why wouldn't we make a difference between the truly elite players in the game that create and convert? quite clearly, 30% assisted vs 70% is a massive difference in the level of difficulty of the shot.
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#59 » by CodeBreaker » Yesterday 8:34 am

Who is still getting fooled by these Harden stats? lmao
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Re: Is Kevin Durant overrated when people says he's clearly above James Harden? 

Post#60 » by rand » Yesterday 8:40 am

There's only one circumstance I'd take Harden over KD, and that's as my #1 for a regular season. Harden is much more durable while handling more minutes and being just as deadly (if not more so) against regular season defense/officiating. As a regular season #2 or in the playoffs, historically I'd take KD. Maybe his Achilles tear will change things.

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