Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon?

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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#101 » by DonaldSanders » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:50 pm

mixerball wrote:
DonaldSanders wrote:
mixerball wrote:what a silly logic if i understand you correctly....
...so olajuwon won his titles with an all star sam casell who was a rookie and second year then and became all star 10 years later


I'm saying there probably should be some clarification whether the player won without a current all-star from that year or if the player won without anyone that ever was an all-star. They are obviously different things, and having players that never made it to an all star game would obviously be harder. Pretty simple logic, nothing silly about that.

Perhaps 3 categories -- zero all-star appearances for the career, all star after the chip, and all-star before the chip.

I mean the 2011 Mavs have Jason Kidd, ya it's not all-star Jason Kidd but it's really not the same thing as say someone who was never an all-star, or as you point out, a rookie like Cassell or Manu who weren't yet at full potential but still better than "not an all star" sounds.

there is also a clear difference between manu and cassell when comparing those years.


That's what I said later more clearly but I guess you didn't finish reading the thread before responding.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#102 » by BarbaGrizz » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:52 am

Without accolades, does Caruso have arguments over Clyde Drexler?
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#103 » by gorz » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:43 am

BarbaGrizz wrote:Without accolades, does Caruso have arguments over Clyde Drexler?



Well I mean this was the 1st year the lakers put an elite supporting cast around caruso so maybe.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#104 » by CodeBreaker » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:25 am

Mickey8 wrote:How is AD more athletic and versatile than Olajuwon , explain that to me, prime Olajuwon would abuse AD on both ends.

AD is faster, has higher vertical, can guard opposing team's best player 1-5
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#105 » by Roddy » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:06 am

CodeBreaker wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:How is AD more athletic and versatile than Olajuwon , explain that to me, prime Olajuwon would abuse AD on both ends.

AD is faster, has higher vertical, can guard opposing team's best player 1-5


I guess you only know 35 years old Olajuwon...because young Hakeem was a physical freak.

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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#106 » by jfs1000d » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:10 am

CodeBreaker wrote:Both are very skilled big men. AD is more athletic and versatile. An elite defensive player as well like Hakeem.
As a big man, is AD on the level of Olajuwon without looking at the accolades?

No.

Not even close man. Olajuwon is on the Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan level.


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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#107 » by Danny11 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:42 am

Smash3 wrote:Do you believe AD can single-handedly lead a team to multiple titles?

I also disagree, but we stop oversimplifying what it takes to win a championship? Did I miss something, did Olajuwon play in an era that was 1v1 basketball?
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#108 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:24 pm

CodeBreaker wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:How is AD more athletic and versatile than Olajuwon , explain that to me, prime Olajuwon would abuse AD on both ends.

AD is faster, has higher vertical, can guard opposing team's best player 1-5

Hakeem could guard multiple position as well as Davis and he was far better man defender...
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#109 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:51 pm

The only advantages I can see for Anthony Davis are ones based on era, and therefor not that useful to compare the two. We've seen a lot of Davis shooting the ball (he's an average shooter throughout his career. These playoffs were by far the best he's ever done shooting the ball). We've seen way more of Davis switching and guarding the perimeter, and just saw first hand how his defensive versatility can be leveraged to increase your championship chances.

I haven't seen much shooting data for Hakeem's prime. bballref has him shooting 43% on long 2s at ages 34-35 (34 was his final all-star season. He shot 50% at age 36, his final season as a decent player). He never took more than 19 threes in a season (he shot 40% the year he attempted 19, but overall there is no sample size here. He hit 20% of a measly 124 threes.) From hardwood classics/youtube Hakeem games I've watched, he was a fluid shooter with great touch. He shot it kind of slow in some spot up situations, but all bigs did back then and they didn't see aggressive closeouts. As a defender, Hakeem did less switching than Davis, but boy, he looked great the rare times he did. By all accounts, Hakeem was a sneaky awesome perimeter defender. His foot speed and footwork have few peers amongst bigs.

As many have noted, Hakeem was stronger, meaner, more hyper, a better go-to scorer, and more skilled for his era. Brow's best attribute is his defense, but Hakeem is one of the best defenders ever. It will take years of defensive dominance by Brow to be in the conversation with Hakeem on that end, and offensively, they're such different players. Brow has always been compared more often to Kevin Garnett. I think that comp suits him better, stylistically, as an elite defender who can put up 20 and do things to grease the wheels of the offense. But Anthony Davis at 26 isn't yet ready to be compared seriously to guys in the top 10 or in the top 10 discussion. Wake me up in 5 years and let me know what he's been up to!
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#110 » by 100proof » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:53 pm

Roddy wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:How is AD more athletic and versatile than Olajuwon , explain that to me, prime Olajuwon would abuse AD on both ends.

AD is faster, has higher vertical, can guard opposing team's best player 1-5


I guess you only know 35 years old Olajuwon...because young Hakeem was a physical freak.



Was about to post the same thing.

Hakeem was a phenomenon.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#111 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:53 pm

CodeBreaker wrote:Both are very skilled big men. AD is more athletic and versatile. An elite defensive player as well like Hakeem.
As a big man, is AD on the level of Olajuwon without looking at the accolades?


How is AD more athletic? Or versatile?
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#112 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:55 pm

Infinite Llamas wrote:Guy won a championship with a supporting cast of Thorpe, Jet and Horry. Putting Davis in the same sentence as him is frankly insulting considering AD’s playoff resume before this year


Of course in a league where the talent level was so low in terms of depth that such a thing was possible...lets not act like there were teams with the depth we have today.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#113 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:02 pm

Kilroy wrote:This thread should only be for people who are actually old enough to have watched Dream play...

I'm a huge Hakeem guy, I watched his entire career.. I think AD's better right now... He's more skilled and more versatile.

Hakeem was one of the most skilled post players ever, but he wasn't shooting 3s... Hell, he barely shot from mid range... He wasn't guarding anyone more than 10' from the basket either... He was an incredible blocker, and rebounder... But not that much better than AD.

Hakeem's best season was arguably his 89-90 season when he was 27... Compare that to AD's season this year at 26...

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id1_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id1=olajuha01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=1990&player_id2_hint=Anthony+Davis&player_id2_select=Anthony+Davis&player_id2=davisan02&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020#stats-per_game::none

Hakeems got him in rebounds and blocks for sure, but AD has Hakeem in pretty much every offensive category...

I think AD's clearly got a shot to be better than Hakeem all time.


It's 2020, everyone with internet is old enough to have seen Hakeem play. I swear this stupid idea you have to have watched someone play in real time has got to die, and yes I did watch hakeem live. Trust me my opinions on him from when he played are WORTHLESS. If you haven't watched a game or two of his in the last 2 years, THAT is a far worse place to be than not having watched him live. THere are kids who I'd take their opinions on a lot of players over mine because they've watched said players more than I did thanks to the internet despite them not being old enough to have seen a single game live.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#114 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:04 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:Without MJ Hakeem probably has 4 or 5 titles.....

The stats are actually pretty close-

The difference is Hakeem wasn't out there chucking up 3's like AD does.

how about this question-

MJ and Hakeem

or

LeBron and AD?

who wins that 2 on 2?

(hint MJ always wins....)


How did MJ prevent Hakeem from making more than 3 finals and never playing him in the playoffs at all?
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#115 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:09 pm

DonaldSanders wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
DonaldSanders wrote:
I'm saying there probably should be some clarification whether the player won without a current all-star from that year or if the player won without anyone that ever was an all-star. They are obviously different things, and having players that never made it to an all star game would obviously be harder. Pretty simple logic, nothing silly about that.

Perhaps 3 categories -- zero all-star appearances for the career, all star after the chip, and all-star before the chip.

I mean the 2011 Mavs have Jason Kidd, ya it's not all-star Jason Kidd but it's really not the same thing as say someone who was never an all-star, or as you point out, a rookie like Cassell or Manu who weren't yet at full potential but still better than "not an all star" sounds.


We're talking about players who won the championship in that moment with no fellow all star next to them. Hakeem didn't have one in 94, and neither did Duncan in 2003.


Gotcha. Neither did Dirk in 2011.


Dnt hate wrote:In 94 Cassell was a rookie and averaging 6 pts in regular season and 9 in playoffs so ya he counts as an obvious non allstar


I think it's clearly fair to say that Cassell was nowhere near all-star quality, I mean you can also make the argument Cassell should never have been an all-star lol. I was more trying to clarify if they were talking AS at any point and pointing out Manu/Parker on the 2003 Spurs in terms of actual advantages the players provided. Neither Parker or Ginobili were in their primes but "zero all stars besides Duncan" doesn't quite tell the story correctly like it does when you mention Olajuwon on the Rockets. I typed pretty fast in the other posts and definitely could have done a better job clarifying what I was trying to say.


Hakeem's first title had Otis Thorpe, 2 years removed from a lone all-star appearance, and slightly reduced in terms of volume scoring, but still considered the Rockets 2nd best player. The next year they traded him for Drexler, who didn't make an all-star team the year of the trade, but made it every other year.

2011 Dirk had 4 former all-stars: Kidd 1 year removed, Marion 4 years removed, Caron Butler (injured) 4 years removed, Peja 7 years removed, + a future all-star in Tyson Chandler 2 years away. Jason Terry never made an all-star team.

2003 Duncan had David Robinson 2 years removed from his final all-star, Steve Smith 5 years removed, Kevin Willis 11 years!! Parker made his first all-star team 4 years later, and Ginobili did it 2 years later. Stephen Jackson never made an all-star team.

I'm not really sure if "all-star in the current year" is a useful metric, but these are the 3 guys who have done it most recently, I think. I think it's fair to note than Hakeem's first championship probably had the least "all-star equity" or something like that.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#116 » by Noctilux » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:16 pm

In three years this thread will not seem as ridiculous as it seems now.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#117 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:17 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Ill give the OP the benefit of the doubt and say they just havent seen much of Hakeem. AD more athletic than Hakeem, on the same level defensively as Hakeem, more versatile than Hakeem. I see those things and just think to myself, this is either a troll or someone that knows very little about Hakeem. Ill give them the benefit of the doubt and say just a lack of knowledge on Hakeem.


I can see an argument for versatile. AD is way better off ball for example. The rest is kinda crazy.
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#118 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:19 pm

DonaldSanders wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
DonaldSanders wrote:
I'm saying there probably should be some clarification whether the player won without a current all-star from that year or if the player won without anyone that ever was an all-star. They are obviously different things, and having players that never made it to an all star game would obviously be harder. Pretty simple logic, nothing silly about that.

Perhaps 3 categories -- zero all-star appearances for the career, all star after the chip, and all-star before the chip.

I mean the 2011 Mavs have Jason Kidd, ya it's not all-star Jason Kidd but it's really not the same thing as say someone who was never an all-star, or as you point out, a rookie like Cassell or Manu who weren't yet at full potential but still better than "not an all star" sounds.


We're talking about players who won the championship in that moment with no fellow all star next to them. Hakeem didn't have one in 94, and neither did Duncan in 2003.


Gotcha. Neither did Dirk in 2011.


Dnt hate wrote:In 94 Cassell was a rookie and averaging 6 pts in regular season and 9 in playoffs so ya he counts as an obvious non allstar


I think it's clearly fair to say that Cassell was nowhere near all-star quality, I mean you can also make the argument Cassell should never have been an all-star lol. I was more trying to clarify if they were talking AS at any point and pointing out Manu/Parker on the 2003 Spurs in terms of actual advantages the players provided. Neither Parker or Ginobili were in their primes but "zero all stars besides Duncan" doesn't quite tell the story correctly like it does when you mention Olajuwon on the Rockets. I typed pretty fast in the other posts and definitely could have done a better job clarifying what I was trying to say.


Wait, WHAT? Cassell has a far better case to argue he was snubbed from more allstar games than shouldn't have been one. The guy was 2nd team all nba that year!
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#119 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:23 pm

Noctilux wrote:In three years this thread will not seem as ridiculous as it seems now.


They're going to remove the time stamps?
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Re: Without accolades, does AD have arguments over Olajuwon? 

Post#120 » by OdomFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:31 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
DonaldSanders wrote:
OdomFan wrote:
We're talking about players who won the championship in that moment with no fellow all star next to them. Hakeem didn't have one in 94, and neither did Duncan in 2003.


Gotcha. Neither did Dirk in 2011.


Dnt hate wrote:In 94 Cassell was a rookie and averaging 6 pts in regular season and 9 in playoffs so ya he counts as an obvious non allstar


I think it's clearly fair to say that Cassell was nowhere near all-star quality, I mean you can also make the argument Cassell should never have been an all-star lol. I was more trying to clarify if they were talking AS at any point and pointing out Manu/Parker on the 2003 Spurs in terms of actual advantages the players provided. Neither Parker or Ginobili were in their primes but "zero all stars besides Duncan" doesn't quite tell the story correctly like it does when you mention Olajuwon on the Rockets. I typed pretty fast in the other posts and definitely could have done a better job clarifying what I was trying to say.


Hakeem's first title had Otis Thorpe, 2 years removed from a lone all-star appearance, and slightly reduced in terms of volume scoring, but still considered the Rockets 2nd best player. The next year they traded him for Drexler, who didn't make an all-star team the year of the trade, but made it every other year.

2011 Dirk had 4 former all-stars: Kidd 1 year removed, Marion 4 years removed, Caron Butler (injured) 4 years removed, Peja 7 years removed, + a future all-star in Tyson Chandler 2 years away. Jason Terry never made an all-star team.

2003 Duncan had David Robinson 2 years removed from his final all-star, Steve Smith 5 years removed, Kevin Willis 11 years!! Parker made his first all-star team 4 years later, and Ginobili did it 2 years later. Stephen Jackson never made an all-star team.

I'm not really sure if "all-star in the current year" is a useful metric, but these are the 3 guys who have done it most recently, I think. I think it's fair to note than Hakeem's first championship probably had the least "all-star equity" or something like that.

2 years is a long time ago when you're an aging vet though because for one. Robinson wasn't the same player in 2003 that he was 2 years ago. It was literally his very last season.

Both him and Otis were still serviceable for their teams in the respective years we're talking about here (03 and 94) but it's not exactly a missed opportunity that someone else was selected over them for those All Star games. So I stand by saying Duncan and Hakeem are the 2 guys that won a championship with no fellow all star.

2011 Dirk has an argument as well, but I wouldn't agree that he was among them because of Tyson Chandlers monstrous efforts on the defensive end, and Jason Terry going off the way he did throughout those playoffs. Especially against my Lakers. He was pretty underrated throughout his entire career due to him spending majority of it on bad Atlanta Hawks teams.
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