Report: Some of Kawhi teammates upset about Kawhi getting preferential treatment. Via bleacher report.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Spoiler:

The issue when posters write things like 'continued disagreement over health after the dirty Pachulia foul' and all after is that the details get glossed over and these matter. It also matters when you ignore the part about #2 often being late for flights and its effect the team.

But back to the Spurs. The contentiousness began way back in 2016. I've posted this often enough that I thought it didn't need repeating but here we are again. #2 fired his then agent Brian Elfus who PATFO considered an honest broker between player and team. But Elfus was in the way of plans made between Dennis Robertson and Joseph Sutton, the son of billionaire Jeff Sutton, who made his son manager of Impact Sports after pouring millions into an agency in debt. The plan was to send #2 to a bigger market. The whole "I just want to be home" thing came later. Mitch Frankel, new agent, was on board, working hand in hand with Robertson.

Elfus eventually sued the Frankel and the agency for unpaid commissions for the max deal he brokered for #2 with the Spurs. Interestingly, in the suit he alleged that #2's mom and Robertson had been on the agency's payroll, meaning if it was in the lawsuit the grievance was that they were an alternate pull working against his best interest for his client.

Also in 2016, the AS game in TO. #2 looked around at the perks other stars were getting, driven around in great cars, like Westbrook, and wanted it, too. Then in the AS game in New Orleans in 2017, there was friction between Robertson and Spurs who insisted that Spurs schedule was too strict, they were too controlling, and he'd get #2 to the arena. Turns out, what with Mardi Gras celebrations, the schedule needed to be what it was. Robertson blew off the Spurs, and #2 ended having to walk through the street celebrations to the arena.

So the glassy-eyed desire for star treatment from player and hangers on was percolating.

In August of 2017, #2 was on a promotional tour of China, and even THEN was ignoring calls from Spurs staff. He was walking fine up and down the Great Wall of China, but in October 2017 was seen limping up a set of stairs to board a plane.

I bring these up because it's important background that often gets ignored in the context of 'injury disagreement'.

Speaking of, it is flat out inaccurate to say that Spurs disagreed with load management. Spurs were load managing him when he played the nine games just as has continued since in TO and LAC. Spurs kept him out in the playoffs after an ankle injury when he wanted to play.

Also, it's inaccurate to say that the root cause is the Pachulia injury, which was an ANKLE injury that happened in May of 2017.

#2's group maintained that the root cause were deep thigh bruises sustained in March of 2016. Now let's think about that. He plays through the playoffs of 2016 and 2017 up until May, resumes physical activity June 20, 2017, is fine walking around in China in August, then proceeds to miss all but nine games of the 2017-2018 season, ostensibly because of deep thigh bruises from MARCH of 2016.

Spurs had long maintained the diagnosis of tendinopathy, a chronic potentially degenerative condition. The Spurs doctors cleared him to play with feedback, treatment, and load management. #2's doctors, who, by the way, he acquired to take over in August of 2017, sought eight different doctors until muscle ossification (from those thigh bruises) was found.

Here's the problem: #2's group spent a whole year saying it wasn't a chronic tendinopathy condition, and now he's prodeeded to continue to miss games for a chronic tendinopathy condition, this despite the fact that Nurse said #2 would play back-to-backs in the second half of the season which he didn't, and despite the fact that Doc in the intro presser said #2 was healthy and wouldn't need nearly as much load management. Never played a back-to-back.

If you look up muscle ossification, bad cases take about a year to heal. Medical practitioners here can fill in whether it's a permanent injury or on par with tendinopathy in terms of long-term prognosis. Since TO, Robertson has given the nebulous 'it was a trust issue' and no longer using 'misdiagnosis, it's not tendinopathy' - which he's had since college, and has never played a full 82-game season - as to the reason for parting with the Spurs. Trust issue. Yeah well Spurs can say the same.

I'm not saying #2 didn't feel pain, that he wasn't worried about his career and took the conservative route which was his right. I am saying that ignoring calls from Spurs officials on a promo tour way before any medical disagreements took place, ignoring the team for months, repeatedly saying he'd return to play only to back out the last minute, refusing pleas from Spurs to shut him down for the season, bailing to NYC after being asked about those actions in a players-only meeting, bailing out on Spurs staff who went to NYC to check on him, trying to bail on Pop who flew out to meet him in the summer of 2018, then putting the Spurs in a bind with a trade insisting on ONE market, then recruiting Butler while playing against him with TO (this after the load management was also an issue in the TO locker room), then recruiting PG13 while he was under contract for another team, then keeping LAL waiting while meeting with PG (I think it was even originally at the same location so they had to change the meeting with LAL) is flat out bad behaviour, on top of all of which was Robertson wanting perks from FOs behind the scenes varying from a position to ownership stake. Robertson was an active wedge maker between #2 and the Spurs during his time there.

Spurs accommodated some things, like hiring #2's beffie Jeremy Castleberry. We've done that for other players as well. But a connection gets you in the door. Once there, you have to work your way up. He was the Assistant Video Coordinator. He went from that position to 'assistant coach' in TOR and LAC. Then went on to say, "F*@# Pop!" in the victory celebrations. **** you right back, ball sweat wiper.

Spurs also tried to trade for PG13 in 2017 per #2 request but it takes both sides.

I'm probably missing some points, but let's be clear about the nature of the departure from the Spurs well before medical disagreements, the use of medical disagreements for departure however legitimate the pain was, and the continuing pattern of seeking and acting out on perks beyond the CBA by Robertson, and beyond whatever applies to anyone else on the team by #2 on three teams now. Basic reciprocity and professionalism would have alleviated a lot of discord along the way, but when it's consistently worked around with a different set of rules, yeah, that's diva behaviour from player to those he's fine are trying to get unearned extras in his name.

And I'm happy to provide links to the points mentioned as they're not my opinion but what has been reported by known and credible journalists. Details and facts and truth matter. If you're still here, thanks for reading.

Very nice, in-depth information. If you have any links please share them. At the same time, to be totally honest, you dont seem to be quite neutral in the topic, meaning this seems like a rather one-sided depiction. For example, you seem to take offense from this "preferential treatment" thing. Can you then fill us up on how other supposed franchise guys are treated in that matter? Like, is what he asked for not normal for guys like LeBron, KD, Dame, Harden? Which part in this was really, verifyable him and what was in the dubious cloud of his family/management, which he best get rid of obviously?

The thing is, #2 was my favourite player on the Spurs at one point. He was at one point the only player I had in my sig. I had rosy glasses on for a while, then around January of 2018 some things just weren't adding up and I started paying more attention and keeping track of how things were developing.

Here's a basic timeline in retrospect:
https://www.poundingtherock.com/2018/7/23/17588318/timeline-kawhi-leonard-saga-san-antonio-spurs
(included are videos of him walking fine in August 2017, then limping up stairs to plane in October, 2017)

Here's info about Elfus's lawsuit:
https://www.ksat.com/sports/2018/07/06/lawsuit-offers-glimpse-at-what-spurs-are-dealing-with-in-kawhis-group/

Info about AS games and the star treatment they then began wanting:

The first cracks in the low-maintenance veneer came in 2016, when Leonard made his first All-Star game — in Toronto of all places.

Leonard and his traveling companions noticed other All-Stars — notably Oklahoma City point guard Russell Westbrook — were using private luxury cars to get around, instead of the standard transportation provided by the NBA. They wanted the star treatment, too.

https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/Kawhi-and-the-Spurs-How-it-all-fell-apart-13094522.php

In reaction to these fairly recent rumors, ESPN’s Michael C. Wright said on the latest episode of colleague Zach Lowe’s podcast that Kawhi Leonard could have avoided his issues with the San Antonio Spurs by speaking up and telling the team that he also wanted to drive a luxury car during the 2016 All-Star Weekend.

“This comes down to what the issue has always been between the Spurs and Kawhi Leonard, that’s communication,” said Wright, as quoted by NESN.

https://www.inquisitr.com/5004016/nba-rumors-reports-hint-at-reasons-behind-kawhi-leonards-feud-with-the-spurs/

Here's the Michael C. Wright podcast which includes the New Orleans incident:
https://backtobackpod.libsyn.com/nerder-she-wrote-kawhi-drama-with-michael-c-wright

And about the eye-opening brand expansion from trip to China:

Leonard’s trip to China in August of 2017 seemed to spark another change in him. Everywhere he went on the NBA ambassador junket, Leonard was mobbed by fans wearing his jersey and other Spurs gear.

And Robertson's vision:

Robertson’s influence grew steadily after Leonard returned from China. In March, Leonard turned down a $20 million shoe deal to re-up with Jordan Brand. Robertson reportedly believed Leonard — as a borderline MVP candidate — deserved more.

As months wore on, some around the league began to suspect Robertson — now known derisively among some Spurs fans as “Uncle Dennis” — harbored visions that went beyond handling his nephew’s affairs. Multiple agents say he has approached clients about becoming their manager as well.

https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/Kawhi-and-the-Spurs-How-it-all-fell-apart-13094522.php

More on the China trip and effects:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1724522

Medical issues AFTER eyes opened to brand expansion. Nothing wrong with it, Spurs never stopped players from pursuing it - and it they did, I'd like to see links, but ignoring Spurs staff calls back in August 2017 in China was a bad harbinger (sourced from very first link in Pounding the Rock article):

Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games.

According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification, or hardening, in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised, and then an atrophy, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

#2 kept telling team he'd return then didn't again and again:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/07/10/report-kawhi-leonard-repeatedly-told-spurs-hed-return-then-didnt/

Spurs wanted to declare him out for season, #2 refused:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/07/18/report-spurs-wanted-to-declare-kawhi-leonard-out-for-the-season-but-he-wouldnt-let-them/comment-page-1/

Bailing on Spurs staff when they came to see him in NYC:

"I probably shouldn’t say this, but I’m going to say it because Kawhi is about to be out of there I think. There was a point during his rehab process in New York that some of the Spurs brass went out to see him in New York. As soon as those guys arrived to the building, Kawhi’s people grabbed him and sequestered him to another part of the building. And so the Spurs' people couldn’t even see him.

"These are the types of things that are going on that people don't know about."

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1724522

(The longer version of this is in the podcast link above).

As to preferential treatment, it's not that the Spurs denied #2 luxury cars or whatever. Wright points out Spurs weren't asked about it. Hard to know what a guy wants when he doesn't communicate it. They way you phrase it, though, skews the point: it's not that what he asked for was different than what other stars do, it's the way they went about wedging #2 away from the Spurs to get him to a bigger market. It's also about basic reciprocity in communicating whether #2 himself or his team, and there was a decided lack of it. It's also about basic respect in showing up on time rather than keeping a plane full of team mates, and pilots, and crew, and ground control, etc., waiting often because he couldn't be arsed to plan better and leave earlier. You have yet to address this. This is not regular perks of stars, it's flat out disrespect.

Three locker rooms now have had players dealing nagging injuries who also would have liked to take a load off and not played, but actually had to because #2 repeatedly didn't. And the mysterious nature of the medical issue - not tendinopathy, but tendinopathy - and lack of communication with teammates :

Several teammates spoke up, expressing frustration and confusion over a growing divide with Leonard that has created significant tension between the franchise star and the Spurs, league sources said.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2018/3/22/17152216/the-spurs-held-a-players-only-meeting-with-kawhi-leonard

This was because of Spurs players only getting details about #2 from media, and because he kept saying he'd return, then didn't shortly before games, and then didn't allow team to declare him out for season. This takes a toll, team mates have a right to ask their best player what's going on as he didn't return texts or communicate with most of them while in NYC.

This was also an issue in TO as Raps fans have shown quotes, and an issue in LAC. The three role players are being blamed, but was there an issue in the locker room with them before #2 and PG13 arrived?

Robertson taking over for Elfus was a turning point because he kept on turning #2 away from the Spurs rather than working with them for a common goal, because there wasn't one. Spurs wanted #2 in SA, Robertson and Frankel in bigger market.

Multiple league sources also told ESPN that the Spurs have grown worried that Leonard's group has an ulterior motive to fray the relationship and get Leonard traded to a larger market such as Los Angeles (Leonard's hometown) or New York or Philadelphia (Robertson lives in New Jersey).

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

Robertson's 'requests':

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

You're asking me to delineate a fine line between #2 and the dubious behaviour of Robertson but that's really not possible from someone compiling information, is it? And what's the point of such a request? Is it to take any black mark association from #2? He's fine with how he's been handling himself in three locker rooms that have all now expressed tension because of it, fine with keeping people waiting, fine with Robertson doing all this above in his name. It's less a fine line of delineation and more a woven thread between them.

As to impartiality or lack of it, that's completely fine. I mean, look at my sig for crying out loud. I make no secret where my allegiances lie, and even as I concede that my starting point is in Spurs favour, and even if Spurs do things that don't work for everyone, because of that, I have tried to cite as much as I can as possible from sources that are not my opinion.

I will say frankly, with as much partiality as anyone cares to attribute, what I'm not ok with is #2's best friend for ages, Jeremy Castleberry, saying, "F*@# Pop!" at the victory parade and #2 saying nothing about it. Nor did any TO players or staff who wanted to keep #2 and still thought they had a shot then for that matter. This is flat out completely beyond the pale and anyone associated with it who didn't say anything about it, let alone saying it, is a complete pisstrumpeting cockwomble POS in my book.

And even where the Spurs who, for instance, were at first reluctant to allow second medical opinions, can be faulted, this whole 'blame on both sides' is by now well exposed as a deeply disingenuous and false narrative, because that line implies equal blame, and there's ample evidence to show that Spurs tried long and hard to keep a relationship going when the other side was trying just as hard to pull away, for reasons far beyond - and before - medical issues, the diagnosis long denied now is accepted readily - but he has a chronic condition! - WE KNOW! We've been saying it for years! - as to the reason why he continues to miss games.

There's a pattern of behaviour here outside of anything to do with the Spurs (though it started there) that is clear and inexcusable.

I applaud your resiliency Grey seriously great read and very informative. But Its futile to try and add context to stans.

[LesGrossman]

I applaud your resiliency Grey seriously great read and very informative. But Its futile to try and add context to stans.

Why do you force yourself into our very interesting and perfectly civilized discussion just to insult me? Hope you're getting a strike for that.

[G R E Y]

Spoiler:

Very nice, in-depth information. If you have any links please share them. At the same time, to be totally honest, you dont seem to be quite neutral in the topic, meaning this seems like a rather one-sided depiction. For example, you seem to take offense from this "preferential treatment" thing. Can you then fill us up on how other supposed franchise guys are treated in that matter? Like, is what he asked for not normal for guys like LeBron, KD, Dame, Harden? Which part in this was really, verifyable him and what was in the dubious cloud of his family/management, which he best get rid of obviously?

The thing is, #2 was my favourite player on the Spurs at one point. He was at one point the only player I had in my sig. I had rosy glasses on for a while, then around January of 2018 some things just weren't adding up and I started paying more attention and keeping track of how things were developing.

Here's a basic timeline in retrospect:
https://www.poundingtherock.com/2018/7/23/17588318/timeline-kawhi-leonard-saga-san-antonio-spurs
(included are videos of him walking fine in August 2017, then limping up stairs to plane in October, 2017)

Here's info about Elfus's lawsuit:
https://www.ksat.com/sports/2018/07/06/lawsuit-offers-glimpse-at-what-spurs-are-dealing-with-in-kawhis-group/

Info about AS games and the star treatment they then began wanting:

The first cracks in the low-maintenance veneer came in 2016, when Leonard made his first All-Star game — in Toronto of all places.

Leonard and his traveling companions noticed other All-Stars — notably Oklahoma City point guard Russell Westbrook — were using private luxury cars to get around, instead of the standard transportation provided by the NBA. They wanted the star treatment, too.

https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/Kawhi-and-the-Spurs-How-it-all-fell-apart-13094522.php

In reaction to these fairly recent rumors, ESPN’s Michael C. Wright said on the latest episode of colleague Zach Lowe’s podcast that Kawhi Leonard could have avoided his issues with the San Antonio Spurs by speaking up and telling the team that he also wanted to drive a luxury car during the 2016 All-Star Weekend.

“This comes down to what the issue has always been between the Spurs and Kawhi Leonard, that’s communication,” said Wright, as quoted by NESN.

https://www.inquisitr.com/5004016/nba-rumors-reports-hint-at-reasons-behind-kawhi-leonards-feud-with-the-spurs/

Here's the Michael C. Wright podcast which includes the New Orleans incident:
https://backtobackpod.libsyn.com/nerder-she-wrote-kawhi-drama-with-michael-c-wright

And about the eye-opening brand expansion from trip to China:

Leonard’s trip to China in August of 2017 seemed to spark another change in him. Everywhere he went on the NBA ambassador junket, Leonard was mobbed by fans wearing his jersey and other Spurs gear.

And Robertson's vision:

Robertson’s influence grew steadily after Leonard returned from China. In March, Leonard turned down a $20 million shoe deal to re-up with Jordan Brand. Robertson reportedly believed Leonard — as a borderline MVP candidate — deserved more.

As months wore on, some around the league began to suspect Robertson — now known derisively among some Spurs fans as “Uncle Dennis” — harbored visions that went beyond handling his nephew’s affairs. Multiple agents say he has approached clients about becoming their manager as well.

https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/Kawhi-and-the-Spurs-How-it-all-fell-apart-13094522.php

More on the China trip and effects:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1724522

Medical issues AFTER eyes opened to brand expansion. Nothing wrong with it, Spurs never stopped players from pursuing it - and it they did, I'd like to see links, but ignoring Spurs staff calls back in August 2017 in China was a bad harbinger (sourced from very first link in Pounding the Rock article):

Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games.

According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification, or hardening, in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised, and then an atrophy, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

#2 kept telling team he'd return then didn't again and again:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/07/10/report-kawhi-leonard-repeatedly-told-spurs-hed-return-then-didnt/

Spurs wanted to declare him out for season, #2 refused:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/07/18/report-spurs-wanted-to-declare-kawhi-leonard-out-for-the-season-but-he-wouldnt-let-them/comment-page-1/

Bailing on Spurs staff when they came to see him in NYC:

"I probably shouldn’t say this, but I’m going to say it because Kawhi is about to be out of there I think. There was a point during his rehab process in New York that some of the Spurs brass went out to see him in New York. As soon as those guys arrived to the building, Kawhi’s people grabbed him and sequestered him to another part of the building. And so the Spurs' people couldn’t even see him.

"These are the types of things that are going on that people don't know about."

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1724522

(The longer version of this is in the podcast link above).

As to preferential treatment, it's not that the Spurs denied #2 luxury cars or whatever. Wright points out Spurs weren't asked about it. Hard to know what a guy wants when he doesn't communicate it. They way you phrase it, though, skews the point: it's not that what he asked for was different than what other stars do, it's the way they went about wedging #2 away from the Spurs to get him to a bigger market. It's also about basic reciprocity in communicating whether #2 himself or his team, and there was a decided lack of it. It's also about basic respect in showing up on time rather than keeping a plane full of team mates, and pilots, and crew, and ground control, etc., waiting often because he couldn't be arsed to plan better and leave earlier. You have yet to address this. This is not regular perks of stars, it's flat out disrespect.

Three locker rooms now have had players dealing nagging injuries who also would have liked to take a load off and not played, but actually had to because #2 repeatedly didn't. And the mysterious nature of the medical issue - not tendinopathy, but tendinopathy - and lack of communication with teammates :

Several teammates spoke up, expressing frustration and confusion over a growing divide with Leonard that has created significant tension between the franchise star and the Spurs, league sources said.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2018/3/22/17152216/the-spurs-held-a-players-only-meeting-with-kawhi-leonard

This was because of Spurs players only getting details about #2 from media, and because he kept saying he'd return, then didn't shortly before games, and then didn't allow team to declare him out for season. This takes a toll, team mates have a right to ask their best player what's going on as he didn't return texts or communicate with most of them while in NYC.

This was also an issue in TO as Raps fans have shown quotes, and an issue in LAC. The three role players are being blamed, but was there an issue in the locker room with them before #2 and PG13 arrived?

Robertson taking over for Elfus was a turning point because he kept on turning #2 away from the Spurs rather than working with them for a common goal, because there wasn't one. Spurs wanted #2 in SA, Robertson and Frankel in bigger market.

Multiple league sources also told ESPN that the Spurs have grown worried that Leonard's group has an ulterior motive to fray the relationship and get Leonard traded to a larger market such as Los Angeles (Leonard's hometown) or New York or Philadelphia (Robertson lives in New Jersey).

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

Robertson's 'requests':

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

You're asking me to delineate a fine line between #2 and the dubious behaviour of Robertson but that's really not possible from someone compiling information, is it? And what's the point of such a request? Is it to take any black mark association from #2? He's fine with how he's been handling himself in three locker rooms that have all now expressed tension because of it, fine with keeping people waiting, fine with Robertson doing all this above in his name. It's less a fine line of delineation and more a woven thread between them.

As to impartiality or lack of it, that's completely fine. I mean, look at my sig for crying out loud. I make no secret where my allegiances lie, and even as I concede that my starting point is in Spurs favour, and even if Spurs do things that don't work for everyone, because of that, I have tried to cite as much as I can as possible from sources that are not my opinion.

I will say frankly, with as much partiality as anyone cares to attribute, what I'm not ok with is #2's best friend for ages, Jeremy Castleberry, saying, "F*@# Pop!" at the victory parade and #2 saying nothing about it. Nor did any TO players or staff who wanted to keep #2 and still thought they had a shot then for that matter. This is flat out completely beyond the pale and anyone associated with it who didn't say anything about it, let alone saying it, is a complete pisstrumpeting cockwomble POS in my book.

And even where the Spurs who, for instance, were at first reluctant to allow second medical opinions, can be faulted, this whole 'blame on both sides' is by now well exposed as a deeply disingenuous and false narrative, because that line implies equal blame, and there's ample evidence to show that Spurs tried long and hard to keep a relationship going when the other side was trying just as hard to pull away, for reasons far beyond - and before - medical issues, the diagnosis long denied now is accepted readily - but he has a chronic condition! - WE KNOW! We've been saying it for years! - as to the reason why he continues to miss games.

There's a pattern of behaviour here outside of anything to do with the Spurs (though it started there) that is clear and inexcusable.

I applaud your resiliency Grey seriously great read and very informative. But Its futile to try and add context to stans.

Appreciate it, thanks, Tracy. In fairness Les was respectful and open to dialogue in requesting links so I provided some. It doesn't need doing nearly as often as before, and it seems now there are more receptive ears after things have continued beyond SA. And to think there's still a lot that hasn't surfaced. But this is enough info to make an informed evaluation.

[LesGrossman]

I like the material provided and would like to continue discussing with you, but i'll take it to PM if you dont mind Grey because its not fun with all the trolling going on here. I'll write if you are interested in a different perspective.

[Tracymcgoaty]

I applaud your resiliency Grey seriously great read and very informative. But Its futile to try and add context to stans.

Why do you force yourself into our very interesting and perfectly civilized discussion just to insult me? Hope you're getting a strike for that.

Dude if i get a strike for that i hope you get a strike for your continuing of mentioning Lebron in threads that have nothing to do with him. Case in point the Tyrone Lue topic derailing the thread. But you're right i shouldn't stoop to that level.

[PaulieWal]

Case in point the Tyrone Lue topic derailing the thread. But you're right i shouldn't stoop to that level.

You weren't kidding. Just browsed that thread. Wowzers

[Tracymcgoaty]

Case in point the Tyrone Lue topic derailing the thread. But you're right i shouldn't stoop to that level.

You weren't kidding. Just browsed that thread. Wowzers

There is iron behind my words Paulie...most times...sometimes...like once or twice.

[Speedlot]

Ehh... Are you guys not familiar with what comes being the top player in the NBA?

Most top players are Divas. Even Lebron can throw his demands around. Kobe? Shaq, Jordan? They do w/e the f they want.

Remember what Butler did to Minny? He shat on all his teammates, including his young stars. People joked about it.. but now that he hah recency clout by winning 2 games in the finals. People commend him for it. Some people think he's better than Iverson already.

Leonard's title isn't recent enough apparently so people are already against him. This dude won a damn title carrying a team. He know what he's doing. He deserves that trust.

Jordan punched his teammates, went to gamble after a playoff loss. Shaq doesn't need to try hard and you still have to obey. Lebron, all I have to say is KLUTCHSPORTS.

Magic would **** on your house carpet and make you clean it up. That's what you have to take by playing with the best.

Don't know how we act surprised when Leonard was literally touted as the best player in the NBA. Ofc he gets what he wants. What don't these scrubs get? Kawhi and Giannis is the future of the league. Lebron won it this year sure.. but he got only a few years left.

Giannis and Kawhi controls the league for the next 10 years. Ship these scrubs out. Have some respect for the best.

You tell people to have some respect for the best yet you piss all over that raptors squad like he was playing with a bunch of G-leaguers...Get a grip that team was great and it's tiring seeing people on this board constantly downplay that Raps team. Kawhi was the tip of that spear not the whole thing.

Where did I piss on the raptors? Did he not carry the raptors team to a championship? Maybe you put too much weight on the word carry.

Should I say "lead" instead? Oh wait he's not a leader. Maybe "drag". Oh no that's too heavy. Think you want "helped" to satisfy this.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Ehh... Are you guys not familiar with what comes being the top player in the NBA?

Most top players are Divas. Even Lebron can throw his demands around. Kobe? Shaq, Jordan? They do w/e the f they want.

Remember what Butler did to Minny? He shat on all his teammates, including his young stars. People joked about it.. but now that he hah recency clout by winning 2 games in the finals. People commend him for it. Some people think he's better than Iverson already.

Leonard's title isn't recent enough apparently so people are already against him. This dude won a damn title carrying a team. He know what he's doing. He deserves that trust.

Jordan punched his teammates, went to gamble after a playoff loss. Shaq doesn't need to try hard and you still have to obey. Lebron, all I have to say is KLUTCHSPORTS.

Magic would **** on your house carpet and make you clean it up. That's what you have to take by playing with the best.

Don't know how we act surprised when Leonard was literally touted as the best player in the NBA. Ofc he gets what he wants. What don't these scrubs get? Kawhi and Giannis is the future of the league. Lebron won it this year sure.. but he got only a few years left.

Giannis and Kawhi controls the league for the next 10 years. Ship these scrubs out. Have some respect for the best.

You tell people to have some respect for the best yet you piss all over that raptors squad like he was playing with a bunch of G-leaguers...Get a grip that team was great and it's tiring seeing people on this board constantly downplay that Raps team. Kawhi was the tip of that spear not the whole thing.

Where did I piss on the raptors? Did he not carry the raptors team to a championship? Maybe you put too much weight on the word carry.

Should I say "lead" instead? Oh wait he's not a leader. Maybe "drag". Oh no that's too heavy. Think you want "helped" to satisfy this.

Oh please are we going to act as if the word carry in sport terms doesn't mean his teammates weren't pulling their weight to bring that team a championship? As in they were scrubs?

I dont like when it's used for anything sports related. I dislike it when people call our role players scrubs and say AD-Lebron is carrying our team. It makes the rest of our players redundant like they dont matter. It's a team sport everyone pulls their weight it's just in different ways. Like this LA team we dont win if they dont all contribute. Like that Raps team contribution came in various of ways. Kawhi was the tip of that spear i've said it since they won that chip.

[Jabroni Lames]

In hindsight, this take might have been closer to the truth than we all realized back then:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Speedlot]

You tell people to have some respect for the best yet you piss all over that raptors squad like he was playing with a bunch of G-leaguers...Get a grip that team was great and it's tiring seeing people on this board constantly downplay that Raps team. Kawhi was the tip of that spear not the whole thing.

Where did I piss on the raptors? Did he not carry the raptors team to a championship? Maybe you put too much weight on the word carry.

Should I say "lead" instead? Oh wait he's not a leader. Maybe "drag". Oh no that's too heavy. Think you want "helped" to satisfy this.

Oh please are we going to act as if the word carry in sport terms doesn't mean his teammates weren't pulling their weight to bring that team a championship? As in they were scrubs?

I dont like when it's used for anything sports related. I dislike it when people call our role players scrubs and say AD-Lebron is carrying our team. It makes the rest of our players redundant like they dont matter. It's a team sport everyone pulls their weight it's just in different ways. Like this LA team we dont win if they dont all contribute. Like that Raps team contribution came in various of ways. Kawhi was the tip of that spear i've said it since they won that chip.

Uh ok. Then what player HAS EVER carried a team to championship then by your definition?

You're still hung up on this word.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Where did I piss on the raptors? Did he not carry the raptors team to a championship? Maybe you put too much weight on the word carry.

Should I say "lead" instead? Oh wait he's not a leader. Maybe "drag". Oh no that's too heavy. Think you want "helped" to satisfy this.

Oh please are we going to act as if the word carry in sport terms doesn't mean his teammates weren't pulling their weight to bring that team a championship? As in they were scrubs?

I dont like when it's used for anything sports related. I dislike it when people call our role players scrubs and say AD-Lebron is carrying our team. It makes the rest of our players redundant like they dont matter. It's a team sport everyone pulls their weight it's just in different ways. Like this LA team we dont win if they dont all contribute. Like that Raps team contribution came in various of ways. Kawhi was the tip of that spear i've said it since they won that chip.

Uh ok. Then what player HAS EVER carried a team to championship then by your definition?

You're still hung up on this word.

I dont know you tell me who has carried a team to a chip and i'll take your word for it. Deuces.

[LesGrossman]

Where did I piss on the raptors? Did he not carry the raptors team to a championship? Maybe you put too much weight on the word carry.

Should I say "lead" instead? Oh wait he's not a leader. Maybe "drag". Oh no that's too heavy. Think you want "helped" to satisfy this.

Oh please are we going to act as if the word carry in sport terms doesn't mean his teammates weren't pulling their weight to bring that team a championship? As in they were scrubs?

I dont like when it's used for anything sports related. I dislike it when people call our role players scrubs and say AD-Lebron is carrying our team. It makes the rest of our players redundant like they dont matter. It's a team sport everyone pulls their weight it's just in different ways. Like this LA team we dont win if they dont all contribute. Like that Raps team contribution came in various of ways. Kawhi was the tip of that spear i've said it since they won that chip.

Uh ok. Then what player HAS EVER carried a team to championship then by your definition?

You're still hung up on this word.

Dirk

[TheNewEra]

In hindsight, this take might have been closer to the truth than we all realized back then:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Irony coming from her

[G R E Y]

I like the material provided and would like to continue discussing with you, but i'll take it to PM if you dont mind Grey because its not fun with all the trolling going on here. I'll write if you are interested in a different perspective.

Thanks, Les. A couple of things - first, if you feel you're being treated beyond the bounds of board rules, do use the report function. The mods here do a great job of following through and maintaining decorum. Next, if you have some links of additional counter info I think it would be helpful for all to see as it's the topic of this thread. To be honest, I'd rather not go into #2 further via PM as I'm just #2'd out after all the info posted. But you or anyone else can, of course, send me a PM as people do for various reasons. It's just that it takes a while to go back through and gather all the info and post it as something that attempts to be coherent for all to see, and that back and forth exchange is a benefit to the thread and the board.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Oh please are we going to act as if the word carry in sport terms doesn't mean his teammates weren't pulling their weight to bring that team a championship? As in they were scrubs?

I dont like when it's used for anything sports related. I dislike it when people call our role players scrubs and say AD-Lebron is carrying our team. It makes the rest of our players redundant like they dont matter. It's a team sport everyone pulls their weight it's just in different ways. Like this LA team we dont win if they dont all contribute. Like that Raps team contribution came in various of ways. Kawhi was the tip of that spear i've said it since they won that chip.

Uh ok. Then what player HAS EVER carried a team to championship then by your definition?

You're still hung up on this word.

Dirk

Dirk's chip was amazing. Whats more amazing is Cuban schooling Skip in first take about that chip...aaaah what a glorious day that was.

[Pharmcat]

Uh ok. Then what player HAS EVER carried a team to championship then by your definition?

You're still hung up on this word.

Dirk

Dirk's chip was amazing. Whats more amazing is Cuban schooling Skip in first take about that chip...aaaah what a glorious day that was.

one of the best clips on youtube

Watch on YouTube

[Kilroy]

And now you got the Dodgers in LA showing you the proper way to do 3-1... Wonder if they did it on purpose.

LA just keeps getting more problematic for the Clips.

[TONY_YAYO]

Lou and Harrell played horribly Kawhi fell apart at the end thats on him Clippers are forever cursed ...Clippers need to just move its a Laker town and always will be....Balmer needs to go ahead move this clipper team to Seattle and possibly name them the SuperSonics

[Homer38]

Spoiler:

The issue when posters write things like 'continued disagreement over health after the dirty Pachulia foul' and all after is that the details get glossed over and these matter. It also matters when you ignore the part about #2 often being late for flights and its effect the team.

But back to the Spurs. The contentiousness began way back in 2016. I've posted this often enough that I thought it didn't need repeating but here we are again. #2 fired his then agent Brian Elfus who PATFO considered an honest broker between player and team. But Elfus was in the way of plans made between Dennis Robertson and Joseph Sutton, the son of billionaire Jeff Sutton, who made his son manager of Impact Sports after pouring millions into an agency in debt. The plan was to send #2 to a bigger market. The whole "I just want to be home" thing came later. Mitch Frankel, new agent, was on board, working hand in hand with Robertson.

Elfus eventually sued the Frankel and the agency for unpaid commissions for the max deal he brokered for #2 with the Spurs. Interestingly, in the suit he alleged that #2's mom and Robertson had been on the agency's payroll, meaning if it was in the lawsuit the grievance was that they were an alternate pull working against his best interest for his client.

Also in 2016, the AS game in TO. #2 looked around at the perks other stars were getting, driven around in great cars, like Westbrook, and wanted it, too. Then in the AS game in New Orleans in 2017, there was friction between Robertson and Spurs who insisted that Spurs schedule was too strict, they were too controlling, and he'd get #2 to the arena. Turns out, what with Mardi Gras celebrations, the schedule needed to be what it was. Robertson blew off the Spurs, and #2 ended having to walk through the street celebrations to the arena.

So the glassy-eyed desire for star treatment from player and hangers on was percolating.

In August of 2017, #2 was on a promotional tour of China, and even THEN was ignoring calls from Spurs staff. He was walking fine up and down the Great Wall of China, but in October 2017 was seen limping up a set of stairs to board a plane.

I bring these up because it's important background that often gets ignored in the context of 'injury disagreement'.

Speaking of, it is flat out inaccurate to say that Spurs disagreed with load management. Spurs were load managing him when he played the nine games just as has continued since in TO and LAC. Spurs kept him out in the playoffs after an ankle injury when he wanted to play.

Also, it's inaccurate to say that the root cause is the Pachulia injury, which was an ANKLE injury that happened in May of 2017.

#2's group maintained that the root cause were deep thigh bruises sustained in March of 2016. Now let's think about that. He plays through the playoffs of 2016 and 2017 up until May, resumes physical activity June 20, 2017, is fine walking around in China in August, then proceeds to miss all but nine games of the 2017-2018 season, ostensibly because of deep thigh bruises from MARCH of 2016.

Spurs had long maintained the diagnosis of tendinopathy, a chronic potentially degenerative condition. The Spurs doctors cleared him to play with feedback, treatment, and load management. #2's doctors, who, by the way, he acquired to take over in August of 2017, sought eight different doctors until muscle ossification (from those thigh bruises) was found.

Here's the problem: #2's group spent a whole year saying it wasn't a chronic tendinopathy condition, and now he's prodeeded to continue to miss games for a chronic tendinopathy condition, this despite the fact that Nurse said #2 would play back-to-backs in the second half of the season which he didn't, and despite the fact that Doc in the intro presser said #2 was healthy and wouldn't need nearly as much load management. Never played a back-to-back.

If you look up muscle ossification, bad cases take about a year to heal. Medical practitioners here can fill in whether it's a permanent injury or on par with tendinopathy in terms of long-term prognosis. Since TO, Robertson has given the nebulous 'it was a trust issue' and no longer using 'misdiagnosis, it's not tendinopathy' - which he's had since college, and has never played a full 82-game season - as to the reason for parting with the Spurs. Trust issue. Yeah well Spurs can say the same.

I'm not saying #2 didn't feel pain, that he wasn't worried about his career and took the conservative route which was his right. I am saying that ignoring calls from Spurs officials on a promo tour way before any medical disagreements took place, ignoring the team for months, repeatedly saying he'd return to play only to back out the last minute, refusing pleas from Spurs to shut him down for the season, bailing to NYC after being asked about those actions in a players-only meeting, bailing out on Spurs staff who went to NYC to check on him, trying to bail on Pop who flew out to meet him in the summer of 2018, then putting the Spurs in a bind with a trade insisting on ONE market, then recruiting Butler while playing against him with TO (this after the load management was also an issue in the TO locker room), then recruiting PG13 while he was under contract for another team, then keeping LAL waiting while meeting with PG (I think it was even originally at the same location so they had to change the meeting with LAL) is flat out bad behaviour, on top of all of which was Robertson wanting perks from FOs behind the scenes varying from a position to ownership stake. Robertson was an active wedge maker between #2 and the Spurs during his time there.

Spurs accommodated some things, like hiring #2's beffie Jeremy Castleberry. We've done that for other players as well. But a connection gets you in the door. Once there, you have to work your way up. He was the Assistant Video Coordinator. He went from that position to 'assistant coach' in TOR and LAC. Then went on to say, "F*@# Pop!" in the victory celebrations. **** you right back, ball sweat wiper.

Spurs also tried to trade for PG13 in 2017 per #2 request but it takes both sides.

I'm probably missing some points, but let's be clear about the nature of the departure from the Spurs well before medical disagreements, the use of medical disagreements for departure however legitimate the pain was, and the continuing pattern of seeking and acting out on perks beyond the CBA by Robertson, and beyond whatever applies to anyone else on the team by #2 on three teams now. Basic reciprocity and professionalism would have alleviated a lot of discord along the way, but when it's consistently worked around with a different set of rules, yeah, that's diva behaviour from player to those he's fine are trying to get unearned extras in his name.

And I'm happy to provide links to the points mentioned as they're not my opinion but what has been reported by known and credible journalists. Details and facts and truth matter. If you're still here, thanks for reading.

Very nice, in-depth information. If you have any links please share them. At the same time, to be totally honest, you dont seem to be quite neutral in the topic, meaning this seems like a rather one-sided depiction. For example, you seem to take offense from this "preferential treatment" thing. Can you then fill us up on how other supposed franchise guys are treated in that matter? Like, is what he asked for not normal for guys like LeBron, KD, Dame, Harden? Which part in this was really, verifyable him and what was in the dubious cloud of his family/management, which he best get rid of obviously?

The thing is, #2 was my favourite player on the Spurs at one point. He was at one point the only player I had in my sig. I had rosy glasses on for a while, then around January of 2018 some things just weren't adding up and I started paying more attention and keeping track of how things were developing.

Here's a basic timeline in retrospect:
https://www.poundingtherock.com/2018/7/23/17588318/timeline-kawhi-leonard-saga-san-antonio-spurs
(included are videos of him walking fine in August 2017, then limping up stairs to plane in October, 2017)

Here's info about Elfus's lawsuit:
https://www.ksat.com/sports/2018/07/06/lawsuit-offers-glimpse-at-what-spurs-are-dealing-with-in-kawhis-group/

Info about AS games and the star treatment they then began wanting:

The first cracks in the low-maintenance veneer came in 2016, when Leonard made his first All-Star game — in Toronto of all places.

Leonard and his traveling companions noticed other All-Stars — notably Oklahoma City point guard Russell Westbrook — were using private luxury cars to get around, instead of the standard transportation provided by the NBA. They wanted the star treatment, too.

https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/Kawhi-and-the-Spurs-How-it-all-fell-apart-13094522.php

In reaction to these fairly recent rumors, ESPN’s Michael C. Wright said on the latest episode of colleague Zach Lowe’s podcast that Kawhi Leonard could have avoided his issues with the San Antonio Spurs by speaking up and telling the team that he also wanted to drive a luxury car during the 2016 All-Star Weekend.

“This comes down to what the issue has always been between the Spurs and Kawhi Leonard, that’s communication,” said Wright, as quoted by NESN.

https://www.inquisitr.com/5004016/nba-rumors-reports-hint-at-reasons-behind-kawhi-leonards-feud-with-the-spurs/

Here's the Michael C. Wright podcast which includes the New Orleans incident:
https://backtobackpod.libsyn.com/nerder-she-wrote-kawhi-drama-with-michael-c-wright

And about the eye-opening brand expansion from trip to China:

Leonard’s trip to China in August of 2017 seemed to spark another change in him. Everywhere he went on the NBA ambassador junket, Leonard was mobbed by fans wearing his jersey and other Spurs gear.

And Robertson's vision:

Robertson’s influence grew steadily after Leonard returned from China. In March, Leonard turned down a $20 million shoe deal to re-up with Jordan Brand. Robertson reportedly believed Leonard — as a borderline MVP candidate — deserved more.

As months wore on, some around the league began to suspect Robertson — now known derisively among some Spurs fans as “Uncle Dennis” — harbored visions that went beyond handling his nephew’s affairs. Multiple agents say he has approached clients about becoming their manager as well.

https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/Kawhi-and-the-Spurs-How-it-all-fell-apart-13094522.php

More on the China trip and effects:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1724522

Medical issues AFTER eyes opened to brand expansion. Nothing wrong with it, Spurs never stopped players from pursuing it - and if they did, I'd like to see links, but ignoring Spurs staff calls back in August 2017 in China was a bad harbinger (sourced from very first link in Pounding the Rock article):

Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games.

According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification, or hardening, in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised, and then an atrophy, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

#2 kept telling team he'd return then didn't again and again:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/07/10/report-kawhi-leonard-repeatedly-told-spurs-hed-return-then-didnt/

Spurs wanted to declare him out for season, #2 refused:
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/07/18/report-spurs-wanted-to-declare-kawhi-leonard-out-for-the-season-but-he-wouldnt-let-them/comment-page-1/

Bailing on Spurs staff when they came to see him in NYC:

"I probably shouldn’t say this, but I’m going to say it because Kawhi is about to be out of there I think. There was a point during his rehab process in New York that some of the Spurs brass went out to see him in New York. As soon as those guys arrived to the building, Kawhi’s people grabbed him and sequestered him to another part of the building. And so the Spurs' people couldn’t even see him.

"These are the types of things that are going on that people don't know about."

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1724522

(The longer version of this is in the podcast link above).

As to preferential treatment, it's not that the Spurs denied #2 luxury cars or whatever. Wright points out Spurs weren't asked about it. Hard to know what a guy wants when he doesn't communicate it. They way you phrase it, though, skews the point: it's not that what he asked for was different than what other stars do, it's the way they went about wedging #2 away from the Spurs to get him to a bigger market. It's also about basic reciprocity in communicating whether #2 himself or his team, and there was a decided lack of it. It's also about basic respect in showing up on time rather than keeping a plane full of team mates, and pilots, and crew, and ground control, etc., waiting often because he couldn't be arsed to plan better and leave earlier. You have yet to address this. This is not regular perks of stars, it's flat out disrespect.

Three locker rooms now have had players dealing nagging injuries who also would have liked to take a load off and not played, but actually had to because #2 repeatedly didn't. And the mysterious nature of the medical issue - not tendinopathy, but tendinopathy - and lack of communication with teammates :

Several teammates spoke up, expressing frustration and confusion over a growing divide with Leonard that has created significant tension between the franchise star and the Spurs, league sources said.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2018/3/22/17152216/the-spurs-held-a-players-only-meeting-with-kawhi-leonard

This was because of Spurs players only getting details about #2 from media, and because he kept saying he'd return, then didn't shortly before games, and then didn't allow team to declare him out for season. This takes a toll, team mates have a right to ask their best player what's going on as he didn't return texts or communicate with most of them while in NYC.

This was also an issue in TO as Raps fans have shown quotes, and an issue in LAC. The three role players are being blamed, but was there an issue in the locker room with them before #2 and PG13 arrived?

Robertson taking over for Elfus was a turning point because he kept on turning #2 away from the Spurs rather than working with them for a common goal, because there wasn't one. Spurs wanted #2 in SA, Robertson and Frankel in bigger market.

Multiple league sources also told ESPN that the Spurs have grown worried that Leonard's group has an ulterior motive to fray the relationship and get Leonard traded to a larger market such as Los Angeles (Leonard's hometown) or New York or Philadelphia (Robertson lives in New Jersey).

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

Robertson's 'requests':

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

You're asking me to delineate a fine line between #2 and the dubious behaviour of Robertson but that's really not possible from someone compiling information, is it? And what's the point of such a request? Is it to take any black mark association from #2? He's fine with how he's been handling himself in three locker rooms that have all now expressed tension because of it, fine with keeping people waiting, fine with Robertson doing all this above in his name. It's less a fine line of delineation and more a woven thread between them.

As to impartiality or lack of it, that's completely fine. I mean, look at my sig for crying out loud. I make no secret where my allegiances lie, and even as I concede that my starting point is in Spurs favour, and even if Spurs do things that don't work for everyone, because of that, I have tried to cite as much as I can as possible from sources that are not my opinion.

I will say frankly, with as much partiality as anyone cares to attribute, what I'm not ok with is #2's best friend for ages, Jeremy Castleberry, saying, "F*@# Pop!" at the victory parade and #2 saying nothing about it. Nor did any TO players or staff who wanted to keep #2 and still thought they had a shot then for that matter. This is flat out completely beyond the pale and anyone associated with it who didn't say anything about it, let alone saying it, is a complete pisstrumpeting cockwomble POS in my book.

And even where the Spurs who, for instance, were at first reluctant to allow second medical opinions, can be faulted, this whole 'blame on both sides' is by now well exposed as a deeply disingenuous and false narrative, because that line implies equal blame, and there's ample evidence to show that Spurs tried long and hard to keep a relationship going when the other side was trying just as hard to pull away, for reasons far beyond - and before - medical issues, the diagnosis long denied now is accepted readily - but he has a chronic condition! - WE KNOW! We've been saying it for years! - as to the reason why he continues to miss games.

There's a pattern of behaviour here outside of anything to do with the Spurs (though it started there) that is clear and inexcusable.

Great post!