Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[mysticOscar]

Well seems we can make this official, even with pc board coming Jordan has 60% of the votes.

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

[Johnny Fontane]

You’re always going to have your little guys trying to make the Lebron is goat push but it’s only going to hold less weight once he retires and not in the spotlight anymore.

[iggymcfrack]

Well seems we can make this official, even with pc board coming Jordan has 60% of the votes.

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

[MavsDirk41]

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

[iggymcfrack]

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

[TheGeneral99]

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Are you serious?

League average TS in the 1980s was 53.8 while Bird's TS for his career was 56.4.

He was essentially a 50/40/90 player during the prime of his career between 1984-1988 with a TS of 58-59. By 1988 he had severe back issues and was declining rapidly.

He's reached the 50/40/90 club twice in his career and was within half a percentage point of reaching it 3 times. To put that in perspective only two other players have reached the 50/40/90 club more than once - Steve Nash and Kevin Durant. To give you more perspective, only 8 players in NBA history have even reached the 50/40/90 club.

He's an all-time great shooter, it's undeniable.

[OdomFan]

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

You're ignoring that fans aren't going to forget Lebron jumping from squad to squad to accomplish those first round/second round, etc numbers you posted there. Thats never gonna wear thin. Teaming up with two other prime stars from his draft class vs the guy that worked with the one team. had the memorable coach that helped him make him the better player with a system that brought the best out of Jordan as player/leader, developed Pippen into second best player, etc.

All of that should matter. It certainly always will to me 10-20 years from now just like it does now, and also we'll all be looking at the current stars from whatever time frame to compare up against Lebron and the others. See how their progress stacks up against them over time. Its not impossible to for someone else to win 4-5 in a much more dominant fashion. We'll see.

[Mirotic12]

I still have Kareem as the NBA GOAT. But Chamberlain was probably the most dominant individual NBA player ever.

[iggymcfrack]

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Are you serious?

League average TS in the 1980s was 53.8 while Bird's TS for his career was 56.4.

He was essentially a 50/40/90 player during the prime of his career between 1984-1988 with a TS of 58-59. By 1988 he had severe back issues and was declining rapidly.

He's reached the 50/40/90 club twice in his career and was within half a percentage point of reaching it 3 times. To put that in perspective only two other players have reached the 50/40/90 club more than once - Steve Nash and Kevin Durant. To give you more perspective, only 8 players in NBA history have even reached the 50/40/90 club.

He's an all-time great shooter, it's undeniable.

He played better in the regular season. In the playoffs, he only had a TS% of .540 or better in 3 of the 11 years the Celtics made the playoffs. That’s what I’m saying is the titles make people remember Bird as some clutch legend that always came through when it mattered, but much like Kobe, he actually was pretty inconsistent in the playoffs and in the biggest games, he was as likely to pull out a stinker as to come up big.

[MavsDirk41]

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Makone is an all time great but there is no way he was better than Bird come on man lol. The Celtics won 19 games the year before Bird. He made that team a contender his first year in the league. He won 3 straight league mvps. Malone is top 20 and maybe top 15 but Bird is easily top 10 all time.

[twyzted]

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

This thread was created at the same time that the top100 project was running last time.
Lebron won also then, diffrence is that most of Jordan voters gave up on the Lebron board in the mean time.
It has been discussed for like 50 pages in another thread on this board.

[iggymcfrack]

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Makone is an all time great but there is no way he was better than Bird come on man lol. The Celtics won 19 games the year before Bird. He made that team a contender his first year in the league. He won 3 straight league mvps. Malone is top 20 and maybe top 15 but Bird is easily top 10 all time.

There were a lot of reasons that team got better, it wasn’t all Bird. The Celtics actually went 10-1 in games Bird didn’t play his first 4 seasons in the league. He was definitely playing on stacked teams when he won those rings. I think you have Malone ranked properly, but I don’t see Bird as top 20 all-time. I’d have him #22 directly behind Oscar and Kawhi.

[mysticOscar]

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

I don't think it needs to be explained that if voters in a poll is able to multi vote and there are a lot of LBJ fans who juatify picking LBJ as GOAT via longevity them there second vote would have to also go to Kareem.

But also I don't think u should conflate that PC project to the general sentiment.

There's been nothing that has happened since this thread was created that would sway general public other than more longevity for LeBron.

Some posters being cute with numbers on the PC board isn't gonna sway general sentiment

[MavsDirk41]

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Makone is an all time great but there is no way he was better than Bird come on man lol. The Celtics won 19 games the year before Bird. He made that team a contender his first year in the league. He won 3 straight league mvps. Malone is top 20 and maybe top 15 but Bird is easily top 10 all time.

There were a lot of reasons that team got better, it wasn’t all Bird. The Celtics actually went 10-1 in games Bird didn’t play his first 4 seasons in the league. He was definitely playing on stacked teams when he won those rings. I think you have Malone ranked properly, but I don’t see Bird as top 20 all-time. I’d have him #22 directly behind Oscar and Kawhi.

Bird played with more talent and their career numbers are similar. What stood out to me about Bird was his ability to make everyone around him better. He might have the highest bb IQ of any player ive ever seen. It was like he knew what the other team was going to do before they ran the play. He was also way more versatile offensively because of his superior passing ability and shot making ability. Both were studs but i got Bird top 10. The guy won 3 straight mvps while Magic was playing.

[NZB2323]

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Makone is an all time great but there is no way he was better than Bird come on man lol. The Celtics won 19 games the year before Bird. He made that team a contender his first year in the league. He won 3 straight league mvps. Malone is top 20 and maybe top 15 but Bird is easily top 10 all time.

There were a lot of reasons that team got better, it wasn’t all Bird. The Celtics actually went 10-1 in games Bird didn’t play his first 4 seasons in the league. He was definitely playing on stacked teams when he won those rings. I think you have Malone ranked properly, but I don’t see Bird as top 20 all-time. I’d have him #22 directly behind Oscar and Kawhi.

Playoff TS%
Bird: 55.1%
Malone: 52.6%

If you want to talk about a guy not coming through in the playoffs, talk about the Mailman not delivering on Sundays, missing 2 free throws. Or talk about Malone losing the ball in 6 in 1998. Or talk about Bird getting the clutch steal and assist against the Pistons in 1987. Or Bird hitting clutch shots in the playoffs. Or Stockton being the one who hit clutch shots for the Jazz.

Yes, Bird had bad games and missed shots, but at least he wasn't scared in those moments, he was the one taking the shot, and he was more efficient than Malone, in addition to being a better passer.

And then I don't know how you make a longevity argument but then have Kawhi ranked ahead of Bird.

[ChipotleWest]

Nobody ever dominated the sport during their career better than Bill Russell, however there was only 8 teams then. With 30 teams it's MJ.

[JordansBulls]

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

I don't think it would change much. Lebron hasn't done much since the poll was created that would sway majority of fans.

Sure it might get sway some fans that put stock a lot on longevity but that just takes away a lot of votes away from Kareem to Lebron rather than MJ to Lebron.

I see that PC thread in this forum is hijacked by Lebron fans but they are really not reflective of majority of sentiment. I think the MJ vs Lebron talk has actually died down

Maybe when Lebron does a farewell season or wins another chip, there might be a wave that might increase his stock against MJ...but nothing in the past recent years has really provided that shift.

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

16 of the 32 voters on that project are Lebron fans. It would be like having 8 panelist and then 4 of the voters are Shannon Sharpe, Nick Wright, Kendrick Perkins, Jay Williams they are voting for Lebron already. So not objective. Maybe if the panel was more split but when you come in with half the voters voters of one guy already then you are already at a disadvantage.
Then they vote Kareem because Lebron's advantage is longevity, but the reality is that longevity hurts when you have 4 titles in 20 years and a guy who beat you head to head in your own era has as many titles in less years.

[Ree4erMadness]

People are re-evaluating MJ’s career for a number of reasons. We’re getting more advanced stats available that show maybe his defense was overrated. People are focusing more on longevity. The myth of invincibility is wearing off with time.

What’s certainly not happening is there being more “fans of LeBron” than before. If you look at the voting, in the first round, it was:
LeBron 15
Jordan 6
Other 6

In the second round it was:
Kareem 10
Jordan 6
Other 6

As you can see, Jordan’s percentage only went up from 22% to 25% when LeBron was removed as an option so it’s very unlikely that LeBron “fandom” was a major factor. Meanwhile, when Kareem was removed as an option, Jordan’s vote share went from 25% in the vote for #2 to 52% in the vote for #3.

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Karl Malone better than Bird, lmfao

[JordansBulls]

Do you actually think everyone on the general board goes to the pc board? I dont go there….

Advanced stats that show Jordans defense was overrated lol? You guys are really reaching….

Lebron james fans are focused on longevity

Was Karl Malone better than Larry Bird? I bet longevity wise it would be the case but anybody who watched them play would know Bird was better.

Nice try tho

I’d say Malone was better than Bird, yeah. Bird’s incredibly overrated because he played on stacked teams and won easy rings. He really didn’t play that great in the playoffs most years though. Of the 12 years he made the playoffs, his TS% was only above league average in 4 of them. Now of those 4 years he shot decently, the Celtics won the title in 3 of them, but he definitely wasn’t the sharpshooter he was purported to be.

Karl Malone better than Bird, lmfao

Yeah that's insane!