Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making?

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Warriors winning with Wiggins means:

The Warriors turned straw into gold.
15
14%
Wiggins was always going to be a star.
9
8%
He was just along for the ride.
86
78%
 
Total votes: 110

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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#41 » by dennythedino » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:54 pm

myrak433 wrote:If he was drafted outside of the lottery and was making about half of what he is making, multiple teams would be looking for his services


I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#42 » by myrak433 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:10 pm

dennythedino wrote:
myrak433 wrote:If he was drafted outside of the lottery and was making about half of what he is making, multiple teams would be looking for his services


I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?


Is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood? Well let’s see they have played 6 NBA seasons. Wiggins averaged 20+ points per season three times, Hood 0 times. Wiggins rookie season was his lowest points per season average at 17 per. Hood has never averaged that many. So I would say yes Wiggins is better than Hood.
And Rodney Hood is a ok rotational guy, but he doesn’t get dogged out like Wiggins. Because he wasn’t drafted #1 and Hood has what 6 million left on his contract and Wiggins has 93 million. I would say that Wiggins is not 87 million dollars worth better than Hood.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#43 » by BostonCouchGM » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:11 pm

you take a ridiculously gifted, 19 y/o athlete with elite size and length for his SG position, and then you put him on a terrible team, with horrible leadership, and a very flawed roster with no defense or shooting. Wiggins wasn't developed well. There's no denying it. Maybe he just gave up and "got his" after awhile. It's a red flag but he was in his early 20s. KAT is the real issue. He's terrible on defense and only wants the ball on the perimeter because he sees himself as a 4 not a 5. That's why it's imperative they draft Okongwu or find a legit 5 to help KAT on the interior and run PnR allowing KAT to spread the floor. Anyway, if Wiggins is drafted by the Cavs and and learns under Lebron he probably develops into a perennial all-star in the weak East. Instead, he gets sent to the worst possible place he could have gone. When Klay is healthy, with him and Steph providing spacing, Wiggins will eat in that offense. He may end up making all-stars yet. I can't imagine why they'd make the trade if they didn't have him in their future plans. If they're going to move anyone it's Green and they'd use the #2 pick to trade back and get that done. Name a team with a better 1-3 than Steph, Klay, Wiggins.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#44 » by homecourtloss » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:17 pm

rtiff68 wrote:The “can Wiggins be a star?” ship has sailed at this point, IMO.

The “can Wiggins be an effective role player?” question has yet to be answered.

If he can give GS something in the neighborhood of what Harrison Barnes gave them, then the trade is a huge win, as it will have netted them an effective role player on the wing (that they desperately need) and a high value asset (the 2021 top 3 protected MIN pick).


If he can’t be an effective role player with GS, he’ll never be. Curry’s gravity, a pecking order for offense, Draymond’s BBIQ...last chance other than maybe playing with a LeBron pecking order locker room.

I still remember the people chastising the Cavs for trading Wiggins since he would be “Maple Jordan,” his “first step,” etc. Cavs never would have traded him if they/LeBeon thought he could be any of that.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#45 » by killmongrel » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:17 pm

myrak433 wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
myrak433 wrote:If he was drafted outside of the lottery and was making about half of what he is making, multiple teams would be looking for his services


I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?


Is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood? Well let’s see they have played 6 NBA seasons. Wiggins averaged 20+ points per season three times, Hood 0 times. Wiggins rookie season was his lowest points per season average at 17 per. Hood has never averaged that many. So I would say yes Wiggins is better than Hood.


This. Haha, like I'm not even a Wiggins fan, but some of these takes are absurd. Comparing somebody like Wiggins to Hood. Seriously? Some people just really do not want to see Wiggins succeed because it would mean the Warriors are just that good of an organization.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#46 » by homecourtloss » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:31 pm

myrak433 wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
myrak433 wrote:If he was drafted outside of the lottery and was making about half of what he is making, multiple teams would be looking for his services


I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?


Is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood? Well let’s see they have played 6 NBA seasons. Wiggins averaged 20+ points per season three times, Hood 0 times. Wiggins rookie season was his lowest points per season average at 17 per. Hood has never averaged that many. So I would say yes Wiggins is better than Hood.
And Rodney Hood is a ok rotational guy, but he doesn’t get dogged out like Wiggins. Because he wasn’t drafted #1 and Hood has what 6 million left on his contract and Wiggins has 93 million. I would say that Wiggins is not 87 million dollars worth better than Hood.


BKREF search is now behind a paywall, so I can’t bring up the full list, but there are very few players ever who have started as many games as Wiggins has, shot as many times as Wiggins has, and produced so few Win Shares and/or Value Over Replacement Player (not perfect measurements, but still) as Wiggins has.

Wiggins
454 GP, 454 games started, 16,000+minutes, 7,488 shots attempted
15 win shares, .044 WS/48, -1.9 BPM, .2 Value Over Replacement Player

Hood
381 GP, 248 games started, 9,000+ minutes, 3,606 shots attempted
17.1 win shares. .088 WS/48, -.5 BPM, 3.4 Value Over Replacement Player

For reference, Zion in 24 games and 600 minutes produced .7 Value Over Replacement Player.

Such a waste of physical gifts is Wiggins.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#47 » by Woodsanity » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:36 pm

myrak433 wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
myrak433 wrote:If he was drafted outside of the lottery and was making about half of what he is making, multiple teams would be looking for his services


I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?


Is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood? Well let’s see they have played 6 NBA seasons. Wiggins averaged 20+ points per season three times, Hood 0 times. Wiggins rookie season was his lowest points per season average at 17 per. Hood has never averaged that many. So I would say yes Wiggins is better than Hood.
And Rodney Hood is a ok rotational guy, but he doesn’t get dogged out like Wiggins. Because he wasn’t drafted #1 and Hood has what 6 million left on his contract and Wiggins has 93 million. I would say that Wiggins is not 87 million dollars worth better than Hood.

20 ppg on bad efficiency with garbage can defense, garbage passing, garbage rebounding. Forgot to mention all the other stuff. :noway:
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#48 » by Warriors Analyst » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:10 am

Wiggins has immense physical talents and not much feel for the game. I used to compare him a lot to Harrison Barnes, but now having seen them both play, I think there are some key differences. Wiggins can pass in a way Barnes never could and he's a much more twitchy and explosive athlete than Barnes who was more of a straight line sprinter. Barnes has a much better shot and he has a much bigger frame that allows him to play the 4. When he was a Warrior, Barnes guarded Zach Randolph in the 2015 playoffs and held his own. Wiggins can't do that. But he is a far more fluid athlete who has the lateral quickness to chase lead guards around, which Barnes was really bad at.

Barnes is a far superior shooter, but Wiggins is better at getting to the hoop because of his first step. For this iteration of the Warriors, I value that above what Barnes was able to do. And I do think that it's not asking a lot of Wiggins to give us at least 11/5/2 on 57% TS, which is what Barnes did for us in the championship run. I'd expect Wiggins to bump up that scoring and maintain a fairly good efficiency on 2PA but he won't be a 40% shooter. I do think that for this Warriors team, his (theoretical) ability to chase wings around is more useful to us than Barnes' ability to guard up at the 4, especially with Klay coming off an ACL tear. And because Wiggins is known for being a spacey and disinterested defender, putting him on-ball will probably be the best hope we have of him being a positive contributor defensively.

My guess for Wiggins next year is 18/5/4 on 57% TS. Probably will grade out as a net neutral per impact stats and that's fine. He isn't worth a max contract, but he'll do enough to not tank the Warriors, who have gone deep in the playoffs relying on significantly worse players at the wing/guard.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#49 » by HollowEarth » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:11 am

zimpy27 wrote:Wiggins will far more likely be the reason GS doesn't win a championship.

There is a small chance he buys into a specific role where he tries hard on defense always and occasionally gets plays on offense and ends up taking 12 shots a game. The chance I think is 1%. GSW are more likely to move him on.
I don't even think it's just buying in, but working on whole new skills and attitudes. There have been a lot of guys that are low usage, high efficiency role players. At the extreme end are guys like Kyle Korver, Clint Capela, Steven Adams, Tyson Chandler, Dwight Powell, Duncan Robinson, etc. Because high usage players are usually more talented, there tends to be this expectation that when they decrease their usage, they'll become one of those hyper efficient guys. Sometimes it does happen, like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and KG in Boston. KG, Allen, and Pierce were 3 stars who also happened to have good shooting, high BBIQ, good off ball skills, and an unselfish attitude on the court. They're the exception though.

Usually it doesn't work out like that, because the skills and talents needed to be a star ball handler aren't the same skills and talents for an elite role player. A lot of high usage players actually drop in efficiency when their touches do down.

Here's how some star players' offensive ratings dropped when they moved to a situation where their usage dropped:
Paul George: 116 >>112
Kevin Love: 120 >> 115
Glen Rice: 117 >> 110
Russel Westbrook: 112 >> 109
Rashard Lewis: 117 >> 115

The only efficient thing about Wiggins' game are the fouls he draws for free throw attempts. If he's getting less touches, he's going to be drawing fewer fouls, and he'll be even less efficient.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#50 » by Warriors Analyst » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:15 am

HollowEarth wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Wiggins will far more likely be the reason GS doesn't win a championship.

There is a small chance he buys into a specific role where he tries hard on defense always and occasionally gets plays on offense and ends up taking 12 shots a game. The chance I think is 1%. GSW are more likely to move him on.
I don't even think it's just buying in, but working on whole new skills and attitudes. There have been a lot of guys that are low usage, high efficiency role players. At the extreme end are guys like Kyle Korver, Clint Capela, Steven Adams, Tyson Chandler, Dwight Powell, Duncan Robinson, etc. Because high usage players are usually more talented, there tends to be this expectation that when they decrease their usage, they'll become one of those hyper efficient guys. Sometimes it does happen, like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and KG in Boston. KG, Allen, and Pierce were 3 stars who also happened to have good shooting, high BBIQ, good off ball skills, and an unselfish attitude on the court. They're the exception though.

Usually it doesn't work out like that, because the skills and talents needed to be a star ball handler aren't the same skills and talents for an elite role player. A lot of high usage players actually drop in efficiency when their touches do down.

Here's how some star players' offensive ratings dropped when they moved to a situation where their usage dropped:
Paul George: 116 >>112
Kevin Love: 120 >> 115
Glen Rice: 117 >> 110
Russel Westbrook: 112 >> 109
Rashard Lewis: 117 >> 115

The only efficient thing about Wiggins' game are the fouls he draws for free throw attempts. If he's getting less touches, he's going to be drawing fewer fouls, and he'll be even less efficient.


I think it's important to make a distinction between touches and usage, especially as it relates to the Warriors system. Touches are literally that, a player possessing the ball. Usage calculates how often a player terminates a possession via shot/foul draw/turnover. In the Warriors' egalitarian system, the ball moves around a lot and Wiggins will get lots of touches. He might not finish a huge amount of possessions -- I hope he doesn't! -- but he'll definitely have the ball in his hands a fair amount.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#51 » by myrak433 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:28 am

Woodsanity wrote:
myrak433 wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?


Is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood? Well let’s see they have played 6 NBA seasons. Wiggins averaged 20+ points per season three times, Hood 0 times. Wiggins rookie season was his lowest points per season average at 17 per. Hood has never averaged that many. So I would say yes Wiggins is better than Hood.
And Rodney Hood is a ok rotational guy, but he doesn’t get dogged out like Wiggins. Because he wasn’t drafted #1 and Hood has what 6 million left on his contract and Wiggins has 93 million. I would say that Wiggins is not 87 million dollars worth better than Hood.

20 ppg on bad efficiency with garbage can defense, garbage passing, garbage rebounding. Forgot to mention all the other stuff. :noway:


Being able to average 20 points a season in the NBA is not easy. So he can play. Now if he is your best player you are a lottery team. If he is your 2nd best player then you are maybe a 8 seed first round exit team
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#52 » by SpreeChokeJob » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:34 am

Warriors Analyst wrote:Wiggins has immense physical talents and not much feel for the game. I used to compare him a lot to Harrison Barnes, but now having seen them both play, I think there are some key differences. Wiggins can pass in a way Barnes never could and he's a much more twitchy and explosive athlete than Barnes who was more of a straight line sprinter. Barnes has a much better shot and he has a much bigger frame that allows him to play the 4. When he was a Warrior, Barnes guarded Zach Randolph in the 2015 playoffs and held his own. Wiggins can't do that. But he is a far more fluid athlete who has the lateral quickness to chase lead guards around, which Barnes was really bad at.

Barnes is a far superior shooter, but Wiggins is better at getting to the hoop because of his first step. For this iteration of the Warriors, I value that above what Barnes was able to do. And I do think that it's not asking a lot of Wiggins to give us at least 11/5/2 on 57% TS, which is what Barnes did for us in the championship run. I'd expect Wiggins to bump up that scoring and maintain a fairly good efficiency on 2PA but he won't be a 40% shooter. I do think that for this Warriors team, his (theoretical) ability to chase wings around is more useful to us than Barnes' ability to guard up at the 4, especially with Klay coming off an ACL tear. And because Wiggins is known for being a spacey and disinterested defender, putting him on-ball will probably be the best hope we have of him being a positive contributor defensively.

My guess for Wiggins next year is 18/5/4 on 57% TS. Probably will grade out as a net neutral per impact stats and that's fine. He isn't worth a max contract, but he'll do enough to not tank the Warriors, who have gone deep in the playoffs relying on significantly worse players at the wing/guard.


I saw Wiggins last year and he has the potential to be a great player. No doubt in my mind. I think he needs to add Livingston’s post up turnaround shot and he will be unstoppable with his height. He’s not a great shooter but he doesn’t have to be. With his height he should get closer to the hoop.

Definitely better than Barnes who was mechanical. But where Barnes robot like behavior excelled was at the defensive end. He could learn from Barnes in that area.

In my opinion if he develops a go to post move and focus on defense, he will be terrific for the Warriors. Don’t have to try and do too much. Keep it simple and work on those two things. He has incredible physical talent, but he should specialize in a niche so the game is easier for him.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#53 » by Zeitgeister » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:34 am

The eternal optimism of the athlete.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#54 » by NO-KG-AI » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:34 am

Warriors fans are trying to convince themselves that he's a superstar now for whatever reason, and I don't get it, because in a few months they'll be here trying to convince everyone that Steph Curry has no help, and that he's carrying a D-league squad.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#55 » by JRoy » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:56 am

BostonCouchGM wrote:you take a ridiculously gifted, 19 y/o athlete with elite size and length for his SG position, and then you put him on a terrible team, with horrible leadership, and a very flawed roster with no defense or shooting. Wiggins wasn't developed well. There's no denying it. Maybe he just gave up and "got his" after awhile. It's a red flag but he was in his early 20s. KAT is the real issue. He's terrible on defense and only wants the ball on the perimeter because he sees himself as a 4 not a 5. That's why it's imperative they draft Okongwu or find a legit 5 to help KAT on the interior and run PnR allowing KAT to spread the floor. Anyway, if Wiggins is drafted by the Cavs and and learns under Lebron he probably develops into a perennial all-star in the weak East. Instead, he gets sent to the worst possible place he could have gone. When Klay is healthy, with him and Steph providing spacing, Wiggins will eat in that offense. He may end up making all-stars yet. I can't imagine why they'd make the trade if they didn't have him in their future plans. If they're going to move anyone it's Green and they'd use the #2 pick to trade back and get that done. Name a team with a better 1-3 than Steph, Klay, Wiggins.


It’s the first two carrying AWs dead weight.

AW has been a huge disappointment, but we can’t pretend we know if he would have turned into a better player somewhere else. Wherever he went he would still be AW.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#56 » by Warriors Analyst » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:03 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:Warriors fans are trying to convince themselves that he's a superstar now for whatever reason, and I don't get it, because in a few months they'll be here trying to convince everyone that Steph Curry has no help, and that he's carrying a D-league squad.


I don't get why it is that on the PC board you're a reasonable and thoughtful poster but when the discussion turns to the Warriors and Steph you become dismissive and haughty. Is there a single Warrior fan arguing Wiggins is a superstar? Of course not, and you're smart enough to read people's posts and see that.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#57 » by Warriors Analyst » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:09 am

SpreeChokeJob wrote:
Warriors Analyst wrote:Wiggins has immense physical talents and not much feel for the game. I used to compare him a lot to Harrison Barnes, but now having seen them both play, I think there are some key differences. Wiggins can pass in a way Barnes never could and he's a much more twitchy and explosive athlete than Barnes who was more of a straight line sprinter. Barnes has a much better shot and he has a much bigger frame that allows him to play the 4. When he was a Warrior, Barnes guarded Zach Randolph in the 2015 playoffs and held his own. Wiggins can't do that. But he is a far more fluid athlete who has the lateral quickness to chase lead guards around, which Barnes was really bad at.

Barnes is a far superior shooter, but Wiggins is better at getting to the hoop because of his first step. For this iteration of the Warriors, I value that above what Barnes was able to do. And I do think that it's not asking a lot of Wiggins to give us at least 11/5/2 on 57% TS, which is what Barnes did for us in the championship run. I'd expect Wiggins to bump up that scoring and maintain a fairly good efficiency on 2PA but he won't be a 40% shooter. I do think that for this Warriors team, his (theoretical) ability to chase wings around is more useful to us than Barnes' ability to guard up at the 4, especially with Klay coming off an ACL tear. And because Wiggins is known for being a spacey and disinterested defender, putting him on-ball will probably be the best hope we have of him being a positive contributor defensively.

My guess for Wiggins next year is 18/5/4 on 57% TS. Probably will grade out as a net neutral per impact stats and that's fine. He isn't worth a max contract, but he'll do enough to not tank the Warriors, who have gone deep in the playoffs relying on significantly worse players at the wing/guard.


I saw Wiggins last year and he has the potential to be a great player. No doubt in my mind. I think he needs to add Livingston’s post up turnaround shot and he will be unstoppable with his height. He’s not a great shooter but he doesn’t have to be. With his height he should get closer to the hoop.

Definitely better than Barnes who was mechanical. But where Barnes robot like behavior excelled was at the defensive end. He could learn from Barnes in that area.

In my opinion if he develops a go to post move and focus on defense, he will be terrific for the Warriors. Don’t have to try and do too much. Keep it simple and work on those two things. He has incredible physical talent, but he should specialize in a niche so the game is easier for him.


I don't think it's as important that Wiggins adds that turnaround jumper, and frankly, with his shot form I'd rather him not be reliant on jumpers when he's in the post. I'd much rather him get good at turning the shoulder into the middle and getting all the way to the hoop on post-ups.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#58 » by Jagic Mohnson » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:13 am

Hes basically Eddie Jones minus the defense. I mean Lakers fans love Eddie but the dude didnt have the extra gear Kobe had which you need to be great and that is what Wiggins lacks.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#59 » by NO-KG-AI » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:18 am

Warriors Analyst wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:Warriors fans are trying to convince themselves that he's a superstar now for whatever reason, and I don't get it, because in a few months they'll be here trying to convince everyone that Steph Curry has no help, and that he's carrying a D-league squad.


I don't get why it is that on the PC board you're a reasonable and thoughtful poster but when the discussion turns to the Warriors and Steph you become dismissive and haughty. Is there a single Warrior fan arguing Wiggins is a superstar? Of course not, and you're smart enough to read people's posts and see that.


I can't keep up with all the guys with "Warriors" in the front part of their name, but the amount of hype surrounding Wiggins turning the corner, being a great player there, or now being a positive trade asset is very apparent here... but like I said, if people suggest that Steph has a lot of help, the entire conversation will shift. It can't be both.

I think the Warriors will be formidable next year, and they are going to be back to being a pretty strong team, health permitting... but very little of that will have anything to do with Wiggins, no matter how many people try to spin him into being a positive.
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Re: Andrew Wiggins: turning straw into gold or always been a star in the making? 

Post#60 » by VanWest82 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:20 am

killmongrel wrote:
myrak433 wrote:
dennythedino wrote:
I mean, Rodney Hood was drafted outside of the lottery the same year. Aside from athleticism, is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood?


Is Wiggins better than Rodney Hood? Well let’s see they have played 6 NBA seasons. Wiggins averaged 20+ points per season three times, Hood 0 times. Wiggins rookie season was his lowest points per season average at 17 per. Hood has never averaged that many. So I would say yes Wiggins is better than Hood.


This. Haha, like I'm not even a Wiggins fan, but some of these takes are absurd. Comparing somebody like Wiggins to Hood. Seriously? Some people just really do not want to see Wiggins succeed because it would mean the Warriors are just that good of an organization.


I don't think it has anything to do with the Warriors. People just really dislike Wiggins. He's a frequent target for hyperbole.

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