What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998?

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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#21 » by Danny1616 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:59 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
No... they wouldnt. They had nothing else on the team outside of that . They only won 58 with Lebron and that’s with Lebron being clearly their best player that regular season and leading the nba in PER


Add what I just wrote:

When Bosh played for Toronto in 2010 they were on pace for nearly 50 wins that season until he broke his face and they ended up with 40 wins. The year after Bosh left Toronto won 22 games.

Raptors were 31-24, sitting in 3rd place in the East before Bosh fractured a bone in his face, missing 12 games.

Look at the 2009-2010 advanced stats:

Win Shares:
1) Lebron
4) Wade
18) Bosh

BPM:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh

Vorp:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh


So you’re telling me Lebron led the league in VORP, BPM and win Shares (as well as PER) but was only worth 3 wins to Miami

Ok


That's just a gross simplication of what happened.

Recall the Heat in the 2010-2011 season. They had huge chemistry issues early on and started the season 8-7. It was clear Wade and Lebron were still figuring out who the alpha was and Bosh was struggling to fit in beside them.

After starting 8-7 and sorting out some early chemistry issues they proceeded to finish 50-12.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#22 » by JulesWinnfield » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:02 am

Danny1616 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Add what I just wrote:

When Bosh played for Toronto in 2010 they were on pace for nearly 50 wins that season until he broke his face and they ended up with 40 wins. The year after Bosh left Toronto won 22 games.

Raptors were 31-24, sitting in 3rd place in the East before Bosh fractured a bone in his face, missing 12 games.

Look at the 2009-2010 advanced stats:

Win Shares:
1) Lebron
4) Wade
18) Bosh

BPM:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh

Vorp:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh


So you’re telling me Lebron led the league in VORP, BPM and win Shares (as well as PER) but was only worth 3 wins to Miami

Ok


That's just a gross simplication of what happened.

Recall the Heat in the 2010-2011 season. They had huge chemistry issues early on and started the season 8-7. It was clear Wade and Lebron were still figuring out who the alpha was and Bosh was struggling to fit in beside them.

After starting 8-7 and sorting out some early chemistry issues they proceeded to finish 50-12.


Let’s say I even grant you the 2011 Heat (I won’t, but for a moment let’s forget the 2011 Heat). That’s the only team you’ll even bother arguing for. Lebron has supposedly spent a decade on super teams. And the weak case the 2011 Heat have is admittedly the best case a Lebron team minus Lebron would have at being as good as the 94 Bulls

Certainly no Cavs team. Certainly not this Laker team, and certainly not a Miami team after 2011 when wade started a decline. 2013 Miami has a great regular season but Wade couldn’t hold up even being 2nd fiddle and was a shell of himself in the playoffs
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#23 » by Danny1616 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:07 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
So you’re telling me Lebron led the league in VORP, BPM and win Shares (as well as PER) but was only worth 3 wins to Miami

Ok


That's just a gross simplication of what happened.

Recall the Heat in the 2010-2011 season. They had huge chemistry issues early on and started the season 8-7. It was clear Wade and Lebron were still figuring out who the alpha was and Bosh was struggling to fit in beside them.

After starting 8-7 and sorting out some early chemistry issues they proceeded to finish 50-12.


Let’s say I even grant you the 2011 Heat (I won’t, but for a moment let’s forget the 2011 Heat). That’s the only team you’ll even bother arguing for. Lebron has supposedly spent a decade on super teams. And the weak case the 2011 Heat have is admittedly the best case a Lebron team minus Lebron would have at being as good as the 94 Bulls


I really don't get your point.

Yes he joined a super team in 2010 which he played with for 4 years. During that period they also added key veterans like Shane Battier, Ray Allen, Mile Miller etc.

Then he joined a young budding star in Kyrie and brought in the guy who was believed to be a top 5 big man in the NBA at the time in Kevin Love.

Now he teamed up with the best big man in the game in AD and got some strong veterans like Green, Howard, Rondo as well.

In the 2010s he played on a super team from 2010-2017.

In 2018 he only had Love and in 2019 he didn't have another star next to him.

This year I also wouldn't consider it a super team because he had one superstar next to him.

Your argument is strange because while he may not have joined already established contenders, both times with the Heat and the Cavaliers he joined with another superstar and brought an additional all-star caliber player as well who had not been on the team prior.

Now it's speculation what the Heat would been like if they only had Bosh and what the 2015 Cavaliers would've look like if they only brought Love. We won't ever know.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#24 » by JulesWinnfield » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:10 am

Danny1616 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
That's just a gross simplication of what happened.

Recall the Heat in the 2010-2011 season. They had huge chemistry issues early on and started the season 8-7. It was clear Wade and Lebron were still figuring out who the alpha was and Bosh was struggling to fit in beside them.

After starting 8-7 and sorting out some early chemistry issues they proceeded to finish 50-12.


Let’s say I even grant you the 2011 Heat (I won’t, but for a moment let’s forget the 2011 Heat). That’s the only team you’ll even bother arguing for. Lebron has supposedly spent a decade on super teams. And the weak case the 2011 Heat have is admittedly the best case a Lebron team minus Lebron would have at being as good as the 94 Bulls


I really don't get your point.

Yes he joined a super team in 2010 which he played with for 4 years. During that period they also added key veterans like Shane Battier, Ray Allen, Mile Miller etc.

Then he joined a young budding star in Kyrie and brought in the guy who was believed to be a top 5 big man in the NBA at the time in Kevin Love.

Now he teamed up with the best big man in the game in AD and got some strong veterans like Green, Howard, Rondo as well.

In the 2010s he played on a super team from 2010-2017.

In 2018 he only had Love and in 2019 he didn't have another star next to him.

This year I also wouldn't consider it a super team because he had one superstar next to him.


Go look at the Cavs record with Kyrie and Love in games Lebron didn’t play, they were something like 4-20 lol.

Super team. Has Kevin love ever played on a team that made the playoffs without Lebron? Kyrie did but not by his doing...as we’ve found out Boston went further in the playoffs both the year he was injured and the year after he left than they went the one year with him playing.

And save me on a post 2011 Wade leading any team anywhere without Lebron
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#25 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:17 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
No... they wouldnt. They had nothing else on the team outside of that . They only won 58 with Lebron and that’s with Lebron being clearly their best player that regular season and leading the nba in PER


Add what I just wrote:

When Bosh played for Toronto in 2010 they were on pace for nearly 50 wins that season until he broke his face and they ended up with 40 wins. The year after Bosh left Toronto won 22 games.

Raptors were 31-24, sitting in 3rd place in the East before Bosh fractured a bone in his face, missing 12 games.

Look at the 2009-2010 advanced stats:

Win Shares:
1) Lebron
4) Wade
18) Bosh

BPM:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh

Vorp:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh


So you’re telling me Lebron led the league in VORP, BPM and win Shares (as well as PER) but was only worth 3 wins to Miami

Ok

For the record Wade only once won 55 without Lebron and that was 2005 when Shaq was 2nd in mvp voting. Also telling that the 2011 team is the only one you could even bring up with a chance for 55 when Lebron supppsedly played on “super teams” for like a decade straight


Why are you so hung up on regular season wins? The Raptors just finished the season with a better winning percentage without Kawhi than with him. Regular season wins mean nothing.

Miami had 3 top-20 players on the roster, 2 of whom were clear-cut top-5 players. Top-end talent is what wins basketball games in the playoffs.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#26 » by JulesWinnfield » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:22 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Add what I just wrote:

When Bosh played for Toronto in 2010 they were on pace for nearly 50 wins that season until he broke his face and they ended up with 40 wins. The year after Bosh left Toronto won 22 games.

Raptors were 31-24, sitting in 3rd place in the East before Bosh fractured a bone in his face, missing 12 games.

Look at the 2009-2010 advanced stats:

Win Shares:
1) Lebron
4) Wade
18) Bosh

BPM:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh

Vorp:
1) Lebron
2) Wade
19) Bosh


So you’re telling me Lebron led the league in VORP, BPM and win Shares (as well as PER) but was only worth 3 wins to Miami

Ok

For the record Wade only once won 55 without Lebron and that was 2005 when Shaq was 2nd in mvp voting. Also telling that the 2011 team is the only one you could even bring up with a chance for 55 when Lebron supppsedly played on “super teams” for like a decade straight


Why are you so hung up on regular season wins? The Raptors just finished the season with a better winning percentage without Kawhi than with him. Regular season wins mean nothing.

Miami had 3 top-20 players on the roster, 2 of whom were clear-cut top-5. Top-end talent is what wins basketball games in the playoffs.


2011 Miami and 2020 Lakers are the only seasons in Lebrons career where you could make any argument whatsoever that he played with a top 5 player. And both those teams had serious, serious roster flaws outside of that high end running mate. And when we are spending all this time looking only at “help” on each respective players roster we should also be looking at the vastly superior stacked competition Lebron would inevitably have to go through every year to win a ring at some point (often not until the finals admittedly) compared to Jordan’s expansion crazy/pre global league where there was simply not nearly as loaded a league talent wise... and any argument to the contrary should be instantly disqualifying from taking seriously the person forming it

All I see is names being thrown out without any context whatsoever. He didn’t play with a peak Wade for 4 years in Miami. He didn’t play with anyone in Cleveland who has ever been associated with any winning to speak of when not in Lebrons orbit, when Lebron sat games with the Cavs literally just about all they did was lose. Only thing Kyrie proved in Boston is that they could go further in the playoffs without him.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#27 » by zgope1 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:57 am

He didnt though he took a holiday instead like a real killer
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#28 » by LeBird » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:04 am

Jordan was a poor fit. It’s not about talent around him. Guys like Pippen and Rodman gave up a lot in order to make MJ fit well. He was a high usage player who couldn’t control matches the way true PGs do and he took a lot of shots. On defense Pippen and Rodman also did the lion’s share. Any team he’d go to would have had to totally rearrange themselves to make it work, and why would they? By the end the efficiency which made him a superhuman in terms of deserving more than normal usage had taken a hit and was sliding. Even when he was young it took Phil Jackson/Tex implementing the triangle to make his high usage way of playing work.

Fans have this misconception about Jordan as if he could make any team a contender. Never happened, more evidence to the contrary. There are a lot of all time great players that never got the pieces around them - or the league’s favor - in getting to championships. Jordan was probably the luckiest all time great in terms of what conspired in the second half of his career. From Phil bringing the triangle, from Pippen being drafted and having a horrible contract situation that kept him as the #2, from losing Grant and needing rebounding to getting Rodman, the GOAT rebounded, heck even Krause who he hated put the whole organisation together for him to do it. Never mind the era of commercialism and control the league still had of the media narrative - 94-96 controversies would have dogged Jordan then and afterwards far more if it happened in the social media age.

At worst he could have ended up like Elgin Baylor, at best he got what he got. I think being fair and saying he still would have managed to win 2-3 rings anyway still shows the hefty amount of false idolisation of him as a player.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#29 » by random_hero891 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:26 am

Jordan's super team only existed because Pippen played for peanuts for his career as a Bull.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#30 » by dribble1614 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:08 am

it would be too easy. jordan could've easily teamed up with the best big man of his league if he wanted to take the easy way out like lebron did. if jordan teams up with a hakeem, ewing, robinson or shaq in the 90's he can also coast to titles with ease. lebron's rings are a lot less impressive than jordan's and he will never be the true goat.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#31 » by Brofessor24 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:32 am

By that point Jordan had already played on super teams.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#32 » by Topofthekey » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:59 am

I mean, it's not going to happen though

MJ's salary was higher than the salary cap

There isn't a single team that could sign him, untill he took a massive pay cut
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#33 » by Mr Puddles » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:07 pm

Imagine if Jordan had a team with:
  • three other hall of famers:
    - including one of the "50 greatest players of all time" at the small forward,
    - pound for pound the best rebounder - and one of the most versatile defenders - of all time,
    - and an all-time great coach
  • some of the top shooters in the NBA
  • and a big guard who could play elite defense and was a 20+ pgg scorer before taking on a smaller role on a loaded team.

Or imagine if Jordan could have joined a supporting cast that won 55 games without him.

Jordan was on a "superteam" on each one of his championship teams.
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What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#34 » by pwayknicks » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:25 pm

How many times did a lebron team win / lose the title as preseason favorites, or say top 3? And not talking about espn favorite, talking about betting favorites. Same with Jordan?

Both players have won with stacked teams, and haven’t with non stacked teams. This constant back and forth of super team non super team is soo


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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#35 » by leolozon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:04 pm

Jordan coudn’t do it, because he had Krause to build his super teams for him. :wink:
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#36 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:06 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:He could have, but he didn't. That's the difference between Jordan and Lebron.

They were close in terms of individual impact. Lebron might even have a slight edge. But his antics make him extremely unlikable.
How could he have done that? The salary cap didn't work thexsame way.

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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#37 » by sunsbg » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:07 pm

There were many super-teams in the history of the league, but how many of those were build by a player ?
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#38 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:14 pm

dribble1614 wrote:it would be too easy. jordan could've easily teamed up with the best big man of his league if he wanted to take the easy way out like lebron did. if jordan teams up with a hakeem, ewing, robinson or shaq in the 90's he can also coast to titles with ease. lebron's rings are a lot less impressive than jordan's and he will never be the true goat.
How could he afford to do that?

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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#39 » by The4thHorseman » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:47 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Jordan had nothing left to prove.

So why did he say he was pissed off that the Bulls didn't try to go for 7 titles?

Nothing was stopping from him from trying to do so with Chicago in 1999.
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Re: What if Jordan Created a Super Team in 1998? 

Post#40 » by The4thHorseman » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:51 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:He had a team that won 55 games when he decided to play baseball. The team that Lebron played on that would win 55 in his absence never existed

Then when it became clear after 1998 that Jax and Pip wouldn’t be brought back by Krause, he quit. He didn’t retire, he straight quit. Took his ball and went home. Didn’t have the guts to do what Lebron did at a similar age with the 2019 Lakers, play in a situation where he might lose. His own ego let him think he could come back a few years later just like his ego made him think he could play baseball, try to make it work with young Rip Hamilton and the number 1 pick he hand selected in Kwame Brown. Dude he thought was the prototype. Karl Malone and KG rolled into one. That was him trying to create his own little super team set up. But like other things, he wasn’t as good as Lebron at picking talent either


The Heat won 47 games the year before Lebron joined and they added another top 15 player in Bosh.

Also you can't dismiss that the Bulls in 1994-1995 were 34-31 before Jordan returned and finished 13-4 with Jordan returning (and that's being rusty after 1.5 years out of the game).

He dropped 55pts against the Knicks #1 rated defense in like his 4th or 5th game back. There were no mentions of being rusty until AFTER Chicago got ousted in the 2nd round.

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