RealGM

I came across this compilation of Michael Jordan 3FGM's tonight that I'd never seen before. It contains maybe 80-90 three-point makes by Jordan, and I'd say that after the famous Trail Blazers bit at the beginning, 90% of them are against the clock: either buzzer-beaters, shot clock under five seconds, or a two-for-one situation. The makes in this video comprise more than 10% of the made 3FGM's for Jordan's entire career, regular season and playoffs.



The reason I would like to post this video is because it can help, to some extent, build the case I made in January arguing that Jordan was actually a far, far better three-point shooter than his % would seem to indicate. Not that he would be in the modern game - i.e., if he practiced it more - but that he was, even in his own time. I won't rehash that argument in this post. It can be found here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1930800

I came across a game on YouTube not long ago (I think it was against the Pistons) in which Jordan shot a half-court shot before the final buzzer of a game in which the Bulls were leading by about seven points. That's how zero #$@#'s were given about 3P% in those days. Combine that with the low attempt numbers, and, well... if you haven't already put two and two (or three and three?) together, you can read it in the link I posted. After seeing the crazy attempt noted above (wish I could find it - he missed it, so it's not a highlight) and the video in this post, I've almost begun to wonder whether I wasn't too conservative in my estimate of Jordan's "real" 3P%.

PS

Just randomly surfing MJ highlights today, I've seen a few more ridiculous buzzer-beater three's that aren't in the vid I posted in the OP. I think my theory really has legs.

scrabbarista wrote:PS

Just randomly surfing MJ highlights today, I've seen a few more ridiculous buzzer-beater three's that aren't in the vid I posted in the OP. I think my theory really has legs.

I dont doubt it.
3 point line came in the nba in 79.
Ncaa had some conferances with it up until 87 when it was used.
So 3 pointers were not when he was growing up.
Plus he said in the video he choose not shooting them vs driving to the basket. If he could be deadly from mid range he couldve added very good 3pt shot

twyzted wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:PS

Just randomly surfing MJ highlights today, I've seen a few more ridiculous buzzer-beater three's that aren't in the vid I posted in the OP. I think my theory really has legs.

I dont doubt it.
3 point line came in the nba in 79.
Ncaa had some conferances with it up until 87 when it was used.
So 3 pointers were not when he was growing up.
Plus he said in the video he choose not shooting them vs driving to the basket. If he could be deadly from mid range he couldve added very good 3pt shot

Right, anyone with sense knows he could've/would've had a very good 3pt shot in today's era. My point, in the thread linked in the OP, is more that he did have a good 3pt shot. His 3pt percentages, I contend, are wildly skewed by the combination of the quality of shots he was taking (very bad) and the number of shots he was taking (very few).

in today's NBA he'd go to the line 20 x a game and shoot 40% from three....putting up 40-8-6. Yes, he really was that good. Same with Bird who I think would have averaged a triple double every season while scoring 35 a game. It's just an entirely different era, completely catered towards offense. It's silly trying to claim anyone from today's game was on these guy's level

In the pre-pace and space era, there were four guys who particularly scared me as an opposing (Knicks) fan when their team needed a three pointer in a clutch situation -- Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Isiah Thomas, and Michael Jordan.

Even though Jordan and Isiah were not nearly as good three point shooters by percentage as those other guys, they still seemed to be able to get and make big threes in crunch time as well as anyone.

scrabbarista wrote:

twyzted wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:PS

Just randomly surfing MJ highlights today, I've seen a few more ridiculous buzzer-beater three's that aren't in the vid I posted in the OP. I think my theory really has legs.

I dont doubt it.
3 point line came in the nba in 79.
Ncaa had some conferances with it up until 87 when it was used.
So 3 pointers were not when he was growing up.
Plus he said in the video he choose not shooting them vs driving to the basket. If he could be deadly from mid range he couldve added very good 3pt shot

Right, anyone with sense knows he could've/would've had a very good 3pt shot in today's era. My point, in the thread linked in the OP, is more that he did have a good 3pt shot. His 3pt percentages, I contend, are wildly skewed by the combination of the quality of shots he was taking (very bad) and the number of shots he was taking (very few).

Yeah i read that thread yesterday and just forgot to address it.
If he is shooting .3 or .6 threes a game most of them were like you said heaves, end of shoot clock shoots.
And ignoring the seasons were the line was closer.
In the playoffs 91/92/93 he shot 39% on 2.4 attempts.
But we have 97 playoff where he shot horribly in eastern conferance series. Then in the finals he went up to 32%

Also looking at the finals in 91-92/92-93 he was shooting 40%+
Hitting 2 of 5 per game. Also went through 91-92/92-93 playoffs and if he was shooting more than 1-2 per game he was shooting ~38-41%.

But yes i also belive that the numbers are scewed because of the heaves or end of clock shots.

Jordan receiving credit for something he didn’t do, but could’ve if he really wanted to?

Or maybe. A modern day Jordan is essentially demar derozan. Or maybe Danny green in playoffs. Or Draymond green. Or ac green. Or I just don’t want to do the steps to use green font.

Sofia wrote:Jordan receiving credit for something he didn’t do, but could’ve if he really wanted to?

Sounds like a Stephen A. caliber take

Well, certainly if a high minute, primary scorer perimeter player is taking 1 or fewer 3PA/G, then the types of three's they are taking are probably not going to be quality three's. From 88-89 to 92-93 with the regular line, Jordan shot:

Regular Season: 256/766 (33.4%, 1.9 3PA/G)
Playoffs: 81/227 (35.7%, 2.5 3PA/G)
Total: 337/993 (33.9%)

In those 5 seasons, when he attempted more 3PA 89-90 and 92-93, his percentage was higher, which would indicate that a higher percentage of his 3PA were "good" shots vs 3PT shots taken because he had to. So yes, it's pretty logical to believe that Jordan would be capable of shooting the 3PT shot pretty well if he was taking them more often and also practicing them more often. Obviously we can't count the shortened line seasons, but it looked like before his mid-career break and those short line seasons, his 3PT shot was on a good trajectory. Outside of those, we just have the last season before his first retirement, and then his Wizards years averaging 0.9 and 0.7 3PA/G which doesn't end up being to helpful.

For 5 years of his prime with the regular 3PT line, he was a 33.4% 3PT shooter on 2 attempts a game, and better when he took more, so capability or ability to hit them at a solid clip with more volume should not really be in question. It was a different game strategically though.

Sofia wrote:Jordan receiving credit for something he didn’t do, but could’ve if he really wanted to?

LMAO.

BostonCouchGM wrote:in today's NBA he'd go to the line 20 x a game and shoot 40% from three....putting up 40-8-6. Yes, he really was that good. Same with Bird who I think would have averaged a triple double every season while scoring 35 a game. It's just an entirely different era, completely catered towards offense. It's silly trying to claim anyone from today's game was on these guy's level

Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

og15 wrote:Well, certainly if a high minute, primary scorer perimeter player is taking 1 or fewer 3PA/G, then the types of three's they are taking are probably not going to be quality three's. From 88-89 to 92-93 with the regular line, Jordan shot:

Regular Season: 256/766 (33.4%, 1.9 3PA/G)
Playoffs: 81/227 (35.7%, 2.5 3PA/G)
Total: 337/993 (33.9%)

In those 5 seasons, when he attempted more 3PA 89-90 and 92-93, his percentage was higher, which would indicate that a higher percentage of his 3PA were "good" shots vs 3PT shots taken because he had to. So yes, it's pretty logical to believe that Jordan would be capable of shooting the 3PT shot pretty well if he was taking them more often and also practicing them more often.

You've probably read my original thread already, but I guess-timated his "real" career percentage to be about .377. The more and more of his actual attempts I see, I've started to wonder whether I may have undershot the mark.

It's also worth noting that he shot .306 in the first two playoffs you listed and .387 in the last three, which would seem to indicate that he may have added the three to his game in his mid-20's. While a decline in 97 and 98 might appear to contradict this, I would counter that A) players were adjusting back from a shortened line to a longer line, and B) much more relevantly, he was in his mid-30's and playing 4,000 minutes per season while three-peating in an era when there was more travel, more back to backs, more preseason games than today, not to mention much more contact in general, which would be draining for a player who played Jordan's style of game, and - as I learned in The Last Dance - he had to play some of the preseason overseas. Put simply, he was tired.

Taking the numbers you highlighted as further food for thought...

To go from 33.4% on 1.9 attempts to 35.7% on 2.5 attempts, he would need to shoot .429 on the added attempts, unless I screwed up the math. Perhaps he shot such a higher percentage on the added attempts because they were shots he was looking for, as opposed to shots he was "forced" to take (I have to use quote marks because if we're honest, many of today's players would likely pass those shots up), as it seems so many of his regular season attempts were.

Magic Is Magic wrote:

BostonCouchGM wrote:in today's NBA he'd go to the line 20 x a game and shoot 40% from three....putting up 40-8-6. Yes, he really was that good. Same with Bird who I think would have averaged a triple double every season while scoring 35 a game. It's just an entirely different era, completely catered towards offense. It's silly trying to claim anyone from today's game was on these guy's level

Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

Setting aside the cute "Jordan had good teammates, so therefore he's not as good as you think he is" argument, (Yawn.)

you could just say Pippen averaged 20/8/6, instead of "roughly 21/9/8."

It makes you look desperate when you exaggerate like that.

I get it, though. Desperation is normal when your position (LBJ > MJ) is at a disadvantage.

Magic Is Magic wrote:

BostonCouchGM wrote:in today's NBA he'd go to the line 20 x a game and shoot 40% from three....putting up 40-8-6. Yes, he really was that good. Same with Bird who I think would have averaged a triple double every season while scoring 35 a game. It's just an entirely different era, completely catered towards offense. It's silly trying to claim anyone from today's game was on these guy's level

Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

Titles won with an All-Star teammate:

Jordan: 5 out of 7 (includes the 17 game regular season he played in 1995 after two years of baseball)

James: 3 out of 10

Summary: James played three more seasons with an All-Star teammate and still won two fewer titles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Titles won without an All-Star teammate:

Jordan: 1 out of 8 (includes the seasons he turned 39 and 40 years old)

James: 1 out of 7

Summary: Pretty much a draw.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But please, tell me more about how great Pippen was and how Jordan's teammates were better than James'. Pippen didn't even make the All-Star team in 1991, in his so-called "playoff prime." How is that "major help?"

scrabbarista wrote:

Magic Is Magic wrote:

BostonCouchGM wrote:in today's NBA he'd go to the line 20 x a game and shoot 40% from three....putting up 40-8-6. Yes, he really was that good. Same with Bird who I think would have averaged a triple double every season while scoring 35 a game. It's just an entirely different era, completely catered towards offense. It's silly trying to claim anyone from today's game was on these guy's level

Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

Setting aside the cute "Jordan had good teammates, so therefore he's not as good as you think he is" argument, (Yawn.)

you could just say Pippen averaged 20/8/6, instead of "roughly 21/9/8."

It makes you look desperate when you exaggerate like that.

I get it, though. Desperation is normal when your position (LBJ > MJ) is at a disadvantage.

Pretty sure those were close to his Finals #s. Check it out buddy

scrabbarista wrote:

Magic Is Magic wrote:

BostonCouchGM wrote:in today's NBA he'd go to the line 20 x a game and shoot 40% from three....putting up 40-8-6. Yes, he really was that good. Same with Bird who I think would have averaged a triple double every season while scoring 35 a game. It's just an entirely different era, completely catered towards offense. It's silly trying to claim anyone from today's game was on these guy's level

Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

Titles won with an All-Star teammate:

Jordan: 5 out of 7 (includes the 17 game regular season he played in 1995 after two years of baseball)

James: 3 out of 10

Summary: James played three more seasons with an All-Star teammate and still won two fewer titles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Titles won without an All-Star teammate:

Jordan: 1 out of 8 (includes the seasons he turned 39 and 40 years old)

James: 1 out of 7

Summary: Pretty much a draw.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But please, tell me more about how great Pippen was and how Jordan's teammates were better than James'. Pippen didn't even make the All-Star team in 1991, in his so-called "playoff prime." How is that "major help?"

Oh, you're going that route? This should be easy then. Which 90s team had a better #2 and #3 option than MJ's Pippen and Grant? Let's hear it.

Magic Is Magic wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:

Magic Is Magic wrote:
Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

Setting aside the cute "Jordan had good teammates, so therefore he's not as good as you think he is" argument, (Yawn.)

you could just say Pippen averaged 20/8/6, instead of "roughly 21/9/8."

It makes you look desperate when you exaggerate like that.

I get it, though. Desperation is normal when your position (LBJ > MJ) is at a disadvantage.

Pretty sure those were close to his Finals #s. Check it out buddy

Yup. More or less, at a glance. You said "playoff prime," which threw me off.

To continue eye-balling the stats....

Jordan was putting up 35/8/7 over the span you cited. Pip was getting one more rebound while playing a position up and one more assist while passing to... Michael Jordan.

Jordan was also averaging 14 more points per game on about 52/43/83 splits to Pippen's roughly 45/20/72.

And Jordan was averaging fewer turnovers at about 3.5 to Pippen's 4.3.

It's a losing game you're playing, my friend, it's a losing game.

The only thing Pippen was maaaaaaaaaaybe better at was on-ball defense, and that's a big maybe when you consider Jordan was a former DPoY and made First Team All-Defense for nine straight seasons.

I realize you weren't arguing Pip was better than Jordan, but my point is that Pippen wasn't whatever you'd like him to be. He was a great athlete and an awesome defender who benefited immensely from playing next to a player who had no weaknesses and was willing to play off the ball and fit into an equal opportunity offense so that everyone could get some shine. He was, in the words of Bill Walton, "perhaps the greatest role player in the history of basketball." He was a Top 50 player in NBA history. What he wasn't is an argument against Jordan as the Greatest of All Time.

Magic Is Magic wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:

Magic Is Magic wrote:
Does this mean during Scottie's 91/92/93 playoff prime of roughly 21/9/8 he would jump to 24/10/11 or so in this era too? If so, wow Jordan was playing with some major help.

Titles won with an All-Star teammate:

Jordan: 5 out of 7 (includes the 17 game regular season he played in 1995 after two years of baseball)

James: 3 out of 10

Summary: James played three more seasons with an All-Star teammate and still won two fewer titles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Titles won without an All-Star teammate:

Jordan: 1 out of 8 (includes the seasons he turned 39 and 40 years old)

James: 1 out of 7

Summary: Pretty much a draw.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But please, tell me more about how great Pippen was and how Jordan's teammates were better than James'. Pippen didn't even make the All-Star team in 1991, in his so-called "playoff prime." How is that "major help?"

Oh, you're going that route? This should be easy then. Which 90s team had a better #2 and #3 option than MJ's Pippen and Grant? Let's hear it.

In 1991, the Trail Blazer had three All-Stars, the Celtics had three All-Stars, the Lakers had two All-Stars, the Jazz had two All-Stars, the 76ers had two All-Stars, the Pistons had two All-Stars, the Bucks had two All-Stars...

That's seven teams in one season that had more All-Stars than the Bulls, and two of them had two more than the Bulls, whose only All-Star was Jordan.

In 1992, the Pistons had three All-Stars, the Cavaliers had two All-Stars, the Celtics had two All-Stars, the Hawks had two All-Stars, the Suns had two All-Stars, the Rockets had two All-Stars, the Lakers had two All-Stars, the Warriors had two All-Stars, and the Jazz had two All-Stars. The Bulls had two, including the MVP and FMVP, Michael Jordan.

That's nine teams that had as many or more All-Stars as the Bulls in 1992. You can keep telling yourself that the reason none of those teams won the title was Horace Grant, but... I mean, seriously...

In 1993, the Cavaliers had three All-Stars, the Warriors had three All-Stars, the Pistons had two All-Stars, the Suns had two All-Stars, the Spurs had two All-Stars, the Jazz had two All-Stars...

That's at least six teams with as many All-Stars as the Bulls, including two that had more than the Bulls.

I hope you'll forgive me if going through and comparing the stats of the third best player on every team in the league to the stats of Horace Grant for three consecutive seasons isn't my idea of a good time.

Pippen and Grant were great players. But you're playing a losing game, my friend. Swap Jordan with any best player on half a dozen teams in any of those three seasons, and you're getting the same result: Michael Jordan, Finals MVP. I know I'm not really talking to you, because I know you're too dug in, but I took the time because your take is a tired, old one, and maybe someone else will take a look at this post and realize that what made the Bulls as "stacked" as they were in 91-93 was having the best to ever play on their side. Did he have help? Sure, same as every other champ in history. But these weren't superteams. They were just great teams being lead by a guy who made everyone else better in every way imaginable.