Nuggets offseason moves

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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#21 » by THE J0KER » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:14 pm

Expectations are very high with Jokic being the league-best center, Murray already has breakthrough into an all-star level in Orlando bubble and Porter projected big improvement into 18+8+ ts%60% TOP50 player already in his sophomore season.

Denver is arguably the league-best drafting team since 2014 (that's how this new WC powerhouse is created) and will have 3 exciting rookies in upcoming season in Bol Bol (officially still counts as a rookie), RJ Hampton, and Zeke Nnaji despite nobody of them are TOP20 pick.

The team is arguable still very deep with notable bench players in Barton, Morris, Green.

But as a Nuggets fan of course I'm very disappointed with this off-season so far (apart from the draft). I expected they will turn the only weak spot, the 2nd guard starter, into some notable name (like Jrue Holiday) using Harris, Barton, Bol, and future firsts. But instead, they so far only weakened the PF spot losing Grant (I agree 60/3 is overpaid, he is about 60/4 worthy) without signs of trying to significantly improve. So instead of joining LAL LAC BKN MIL as NBA TOP title contender, Denver is again #5-#7 dark horse with the other two 2020 conference finalists (BOS MIA).

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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#22 » by pontius » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:15 pm

They did okay. Losing Grant wasn't their fault. They matched the Pistons offer but allegedly Grant wanted a bigger role. It's good they didn't overpay for him. Millsap's contract is short and easy to trade if needed. Plumlee and Craig aren't big losses for the team. With the new additions I expect them to play at the same level as last season, if not slightly better. Green is an underrated signing.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#23 » by _qubik » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:00 pm

Well, they resigned Millsap, it was a big win, I still think the Detroit signings are part of a S&T for Blake, and I would gamble if a were the Nuggets. The Torey Craig is a head scratching move, he defends the **** out of the court.

If they start the season with:

PG- Murray
SG- Barton
SF- MPJ
PF- Blake
C - Jokic

6th- Millsap
7th- Morris

It would be a gamble in MPJ taking a starter role and Blake being healthy, if it pans out would be an insane amount of talent. Probably the best passing front court in the league.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#24 » by The Rebel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:03 pm

Reading this thread reminds me how little people actually watch the Nuggets. The idea of Grant and Craig is a lot better then the reality of both guys. together those 2 in the lineup with Murray/ Harris/ Jokic put up a -36.8 in the playoffs if that tells you anything. IN the last 3 years Jokic has had a negative rating when paired up with 4 teammates, Mudiay, Trey Lyles, and of course Craig and Grant last year. Last year Craig put up a -4.1 with Jokic and Grant put up a -1.6 rating.

Craig put up 5/3/1 on 55.3% TS%, so he was basically an average 10th guy on offense, but the eye opening stats are on defense, where he has become very overrated. Craig is 10th in defensive win shares on the team last year, was a negative in dbpm, and a -0.1 in vorp. with a -5.7 net rating and a -1.99 in Real plus minus. He also gave up 45.6% shooting. All this while coming off the bench most nights. To top it off Craig will be 30 next year and is already showing signs of slowing down physically, his game dropped off last year and it was pretty obvious to those paying attention.

Grant put up 12/4/1 on 59.1% TS%. His advanced stats are a little better but not $20 million per year better, and not someone that we should be crying over. He was 3rd on the roster for defensive win shares, although a -0.6 on DBPM, and 0.7 on Vorp, with a net rating of -2.1 and a -2.09 in real plus minus. He did well in defensive shooting percentage, where he gave up 43.3%.

The funniest part of all these threads is how many act like those 2 are the huge losses and Plumlee is no big deal, when reality is that Plumlee in the regular season is one of the best backup bigs in the league. He is terrible in the playoffs, but it is not like Grant and Craig were all that great in the playoffs either.

Our bench was one of the worst in the league after the trade deadline where we moved Juancho and Beasley. It cost us several games, and if someone was to go look at our game logs it is pretty obvious why. Craig and Grant were the only 2 players on the roster who were net negatives in the lineup.

Millsap was bad on offense in the playoffs, but he was a considerably better defender than Grant or Craig were in those same series, and Millsap has developed a 3 point shot shooting 46% on spot up 3s during the regular season.


While the 2 things Grant is best at is what we need out of starting PF in perimeter defense and 3 point shooting, bringing back Millsap and bringing in Green (who is not a great player but very close to equal to grant) make it so it is not a big loss. Craig we withdrew the qualifying offer on so that we could save a roster spot, if that tells you how the front office feels about him.

Speaking of roster spots, we also are likely cutting Bates-Diop, who after being traded to Denver was bad, he couldn't crack a rotation of one of the worst benches in the league, and struggles badly in the minutes he did have.

Fact is we have MPJ/ Bol/ and Cancar who all should be competing for backup forward minutes, all 3 are basically 2nd year players and all 3 have shown reason to think they are upgrades on guys who they will be replacing.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#25 » by r0drig0lac » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:04 pm

_qubik wrote:Well, they resigned Millsap, it was a big win, I still think the Detroit signings are part of a S&T for Blake, and I would gamble if a were the Nuggets. The Torey Craig is a head scratching move, he defends the **** out of the court.

If they start the season with:

PG- Murray
SG- Barton
SF- MPJ
PF- Blake
C - Jokic

6th- Millsap
7th- Morris

It would be a gamble in MPJ taking a starter role and Blake being healthy, if it pans out would be an insane amount of talent. Probably the best passing front court in the league.
Campazzo-Blake-Jokic passing game would be amazing to watch.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#26 » by The Rebel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:05 pm

_qubik wrote:Well, they resigned Millsap, it was a big win, I still think the Detroit signings are part of a S&T for Blake, and I would gamble if a were the Nuggets. The Torey Craig is a head scratching move, he defends the **** out of the court.

If they start the season with:

PG- Murray
SG- Barton
SF- MPJ
PF- Blake
C - Jokic

6th- Millsap
7th- Morris

It would be a gamble in MPJ taking a starter role and Blake being healthy, if it pans out would be an insane amount of talent. Probably the best passing front court in the league.


LMAO, they are not going to take back Blake, the front office put a stop to those rumors immediately through the Denver local guys. We have 3 young forwards on the roster who all deserve the chance to compete for minutes.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#27 » by _qubik » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:10 pm

The Rebel wrote:
_qubik wrote:Well, they resigned Millsap, it was a big win, I still think the Detroit signings are part of a S&T for Blake, and I would gamble if a were the Nuggets. The Torey Craig is a head scratching move, he defends the **** out of the court.

If they start the season with:

PG- Murray
SG- Barton
SF- MPJ
PF- Blake
C - Jokic

6th- Millsap
7th- Morris

It would be a gamble in MPJ taking a starter role and Blake being healthy, if it pans out would be an insane amount of talent. Probably the best passing front court in the league.


LMAO, they are not going to take back Blake, the front office put a stop to those rumors immediately through the Denver local guys. We have 3 young forwards on the roster who all deserve the chance to compete for minutes.


You deserve the chance to win, and have a good team, its not time to give chance to young guys, pack the kids, get some **** and ride with the star duo, theres no need to have more than 7 or 8 serviceable players come playoff time. You got the smart and though guys in Millsap and Harris, the talented duo in Murray and Jokic, your young guy closer to contributing in MPJ, just need one more "star" or high level starter to put the Nuggets over the top.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#28 » by The Rebel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:42 pm

_qubik wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
_qubik wrote:Well, they resigned Millsap, it was a big win, I still think the Detroit signings are part of a S&T for Blake, and I would gamble if a were the Nuggets. The Torey Craig is a head scratching move, he defends the **** out of the court.

If they start the season with:

PG- Murray
SG- Barton
SF- MPJ
PF- Blake
C - Jokic

6th- Millsap
7th- Morris

It would be a gamble in MPJ taking a starter role and Blake being healthy, if it pans out would be an insane amount of talent. Probably the best passing front court in the league.


LMAO, they are not going to take back Blake, the front office put a stop to those rumors immediately through the Denver local guys. We have 3 young forwards on the roster who all deserve the chance to compete for minutes.


You deserve the chance to win, and have a good team, its not time to give chance to young guys, pack the kids, get some **** and ride with the star duo, theres no need to have more than 7 or 8 serviceable players come playoff time. You got the smart and though guys in Millsap and Harris, the talented duo in Murray and Jokic, your young guy closer to contributing in MPJ, just need one more "star" or high level starter to put the Nuggets over the top.


MPJ is a star level player and 1 of the few rookies I remember who had a positive net rating in the regular season and improved it considerably in the playoffs. I would easily take my chances on him over Griffin on his contract. Griffin is injury prone and not all that productive after his latest injuries.

As for the bench, I would rather take my chances developing our young high potential guys that throw that away to waste on a guy like Blake Griffin, if teams thought he would contribute there would be no need to try to convince fans that their team needs him.

Also
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#29 » by MrSparkle » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:00 pm

They do have this fella named MPJ... not to mention Barton.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#30 » by The_Hater » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:07 pm

Well we need to remember that Barton didn’t play in the bubble and Porter didn’t play Pre-bubble, so between the 2 they’ve basically added one starting caliber player there.

I think their biggest challenge will be finding someone to match up defensively with the Clips and Lakers wings. Right now they don’t have any options really.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#31 » by R-DAWG » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:14 pm

At the moment, losing Grant hurts, but in a year from now we might be saying they were lucky not to get stuck with that contract.

Plumlee, again, nice player but not worth the contract.

Denver's core is so young, that even if they took a small step back, maintain flexibility over the next few years under the hard cap next season and with cap space the following season could be more valuable than locking in Grant and Plumlee on above market contracts might be best for the long term.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#32 » by slick_watts » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:41 pm

save for some ok games in the playoffs, jerami grant was atrocious last season for the nuggets. re-signing millsap was important, and they are fortunate he chose them over boston. otherwise they really would have been boned. they'll require some maturing from MPJ and perhaps bol bol, but they haven't lost anyone they can't replace and they are still a relatively young team with some positive development range yet to come.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#33 » by The Rebel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:58 pm

The_Hater wrote:Well we need to remember that Barton didn’t play in the bubble and Porter didn’t play Pre-bubble, so between the 2 they’ve basically added one starting caliber player there.

I think their biggest challenge will be finding someone to match up defensively with the Clips and Lakers wings. Right now they don’t have any options really.


Porter earned a rotation spot in late December/ early January so he did get some minutes pre-bubble and did well with those minutes.

As for the guy to matchup with the Clippers and Lakers wings, last I checked we still have Barton. Despite being undersized he has a long history of being a good defender against George, Lebron, and Kawhi. Harris does well against George and Kawhi as well, and oddly if you watched the playoffs MPJ did better against Lebron that either Craig or Grant really did.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#34 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 pm

76ciology wrote:Losing Jerami Grant is a big setback IMO.


I'm really stunned by it. Given that it wasn't about money, just Grant wanting a starring role, to me that makes me think Grant is a fool.

I really thought Denver was the perfect place for him to be a player the whole league knew about and respected.

I also am not really sure what Detroit is doing. If I were them I wouldn't have been pursing someone like Grant at all.

Anyway, I could be wrong on my Grant assessment, but this seems like one of those things that's just horrible bad luck on the part of the franchise losing their guy.

And yeah, Grant was the 3rd most valuable player they had and the best to fit around their Big 2. This hurts. Good chance the Nuggets fall back a bit next season. (Though on the other hand, maybe Murray & Porter really take leaps forward, so we'll see.)
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#35 » by The_Hater » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:12 pm

The Rebel wrote:
The_Hater wrote:Well we need to remember that Barton didn’t play in the bubble and Porter didn’t play Pre-bubble, so between the 2 they’ve basically added one starting caliber player there.

I think their biggest challenge will be finding someone to match up defensively with the Clips and Lakers wings. Right now they don’t have any options really.


Porter earned a rotation spot in late December/ early January so he did get some minutes pre-bubble and did well with those minutes.

As for the guy to matchup with the Clippers and Lakers wings, last I checked we still have Barton. Despite being undersized he has a long history of being a good defender against George, Lebron, and Kawhi. Harris does well against George and Kawhi as well, and oddly if you watched the playoffs MPJ did better against Lebron that either Craig or Grant really did.


I don’t view Barton as a guy to match up with Bron and Kawhi. He’s small. But I’ll take your word on it.

I thought Grant was much better defensively than Porter in the playoffs. Porter, for all his obvious talent, still does a lot of dumb things on the court and often plays lackadaisical. At least that’s my perception.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#36 » by 76ciology » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:16 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
76ciology wrote:Losing Jerami Grant is a big setback IMO.


I'm really stunned by it. Given that it wasn't about money, just Grant wanting a starring role, to me that makes me think Grant is a fool.

I really thought Denver was the perfect place for him to be a player the whole league knew about and respected.

I also am not really sure what Detroit is doing. If I were them I wouldn't have been pursing someone like Grant at all.

Anyway, I could be wrong on my Grant assessment, but this seems like one of those things that's just horrible bad luck on the part of the franchise losing their guy.

And yeah, Grant was the 3rd most valuable player they had and the best to fit around their Big 2. This hurts. Good chance the Nuggets fall back a bit next season. (Though on the other hand, maybe Murray & Porter really take leaps forward, so we'll see.)


Exactly.

I thought Grant excelled with the role he was playing. I felt he was groomed to replace Milsap.

But in Detroit..

And what role? To play like Kevin Durant running isolations and pick and rolls with their 100 centers? Hahaha
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#37 » by SeanieWard » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:18 pm

Bol Bol and MPJ will make people forgot about Grant and Craig
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#38 » by The Rebel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:20 pm

The_Hater wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
The_Hater wrote:Well we need to remember that Barton didn’t play in the bubble and Porter didn’t play Pre-bubble, so between the 2 they’ve basically added one starting caliber player there.

I think their biggest challenge will be finding someone to match up defensively with the Clips and Lakers wings. Right now they don’t have any options really.


Porter earned a rotation spot in late December/ early January so he did get some minutes pre-bubble and did well with those minutes.

As for the guy to matchup with the Clippers and Lakers wings, last I checked we still have Barton. Despite being undersized he has a long history of being a good defender against George, Lebron, and Kawhi. Harris does well against George and Kawhi as well, and oddly if you watched the playoffs MPJ did better against Lebron that either Craig or Grant really did.


I don’t view Barton as a guy to match up with Bron and Kawhi. He’s small. But I’ll take your word on it.

I thought Grant was much better defensively than Porter in the playoffs. Porter, for all his obvious talent, still does a lot of dumb things on the court and often plays lackadaisical. At least that’s my perception.


It is odd with Barton as he is undersized but he knows how to match up with larger SFs and spread 4s as well as anybody 6'5" that I have seen in a long time, he is strong enough and has really long arms so that helps in addition to naturally being a little quicker than most. He is bad against small guards though, which is weird considering he should have the length and strength advantages.

Grant was not all that good in the playoffs, Davis was shooting something like 65% against him, he did well at times against Lebron but overall MPJ was much better at guarding Lebron. If you look at the game threads from those games you will see how many were shocked by MPJ. MPJ does well against SFs, but was terrible when getting switched onto guards or larger PFs. Mitchell obviously destroyed MPJ and was matchup hunting MPJ, but both did well at times against George and Kawhi, and both struggled at times against both of those guys.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#39 » by The_Hater » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:28 pm

The Rebel wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
Porter earned a rotation spot in late December/ early January so he did get some minutes pre-bubble and did well with those minutes.

As for the guy to matchup with the Clippers and Lakers wings, last I checked we still have Barton. Despite being undersized he has a long history of being a good defender against George, Lebron, and Kawhi. Harris does well against George and Kawhi as well, and oddly if you watched the playoffs MPJ did better against Lebron that either Craig or Grant really did.


I don’t view Barton as a guy to match up with Bron and Kawhi. He’s small. But I’ll take your word on it.

I thought Grant was much better defensively than Porter in the playoffs. Porter, for all his obvious talent, still does a lot of dumb things on the court and often plays lackadaisical. At least that’s my perception.


It is odd with Barton as he is undersized but he knows how to match up with larger SFs and spread 4s as well as anybody 6'5" that I have seen in a long time, he is strong enough and has really long arms so that helps in addition to naturally being a little quicker than most. He is bad against small guards though, which is weird considering he should have the length and strength advantages.

Grant was not all that good in the playoffs, Davis was shooting something like 65% against him, he did well at times against Lebron but overall MPJ was much better at guarding Lebron. If you look at the game threads from those games you will see how many were shocked by MPJ. MPJ does well against SFs, but was terrible when getting switched onto guards or larger PFs. Mitchell obviously destroyed MPJ and was matchup hunting MPJ, but both did well at times against George and Kawhi, and both struggled at times against both of those guys.


You keep saying that about Grant, but he was given all the toughest defensive assignments in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and just took them on. That matters. You’re not going to shut down the league’s superstars but having someone that can at least bother them with length is important. I don’t think a small sample of playoff data is a good reason to assume that the opposite is true and inferior defenders were actually better but that’s just me.

I still think the Nuggets have taken a step back defensively as of right now. But the off season isn’t done.
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Re: Nuggets offseason moves 

Post#40 » by The Rebel » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:29 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
76ciology wrote:Losing Jerami Grant is a big setback IMO.


I'm really stunned by it. Given that it wasn't about money, just Grant wanting a starring role, to me that makes me think Grant is a fool.

I really thought Denver was the perfect place for him to be a player the whole league knew about and respected.

I also am not really sure what Detroit is doing. If I were them I wouldn't have been pursing someone like Grant at all.

Anyway, I could be wrong on my Grant assessment, but this seems like one of those things that's just horrible bad luck on the part of the franchise losing their guy.

And yeah, Grant was the 3rd most valuable player they had and the best to fit around their Big 2. This hurts. Good chance the Nuggets fall back a bit next season. (Though on the other hand, maybe Murray & Porter really take leaps forward, so we'll see.)


I understand why you would think that after the Lakers series, but Grant was no where near our 3rd most valuable player on the court the entire season nor the 1st 2 rounds of the playoffs. In fact it is pretty easy to argue that the only reason he was in the rotation was his spot up shooting helped spread the floor for most of the season.

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