Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race

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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#321 » by Wagonband » Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:51 pm

LoneyROY wrote:[
Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.


It's a legit debate. Everyone pretending it's not is just so full of himself he can't think logically. You could find arguments for both. You are probably one of those "and it's not even close" guys. They are both legit top 7 players in the NBA. Depends on the game they have where you rank them 1-7
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#322 » by guille_4 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:04 pm

Wagonband wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:[
Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.


It's a legit debate. Everyone pretending it's not is just so full of himself he can't think logically. You could find arguments for both. You are probably one of those "and it's not even close" guys. They are both legit top 7 players in the NBA. Depends on the game they have where you rank them 1-7


I'm a huge Luka fan but IMO he's a tier 2 superstar. With KD and Curry back, he's likely no longer All-NBA 1st team. Still definitely an All-NBA player, an allstar and a top-10 player.

IMO Lebron, KD, Kawhi, Harden, Giannis, AD, Curry are the top-7 players in the NBA.

And Luka is in upper segment of the next tier with Embiid, Lillard, Jayson Tatum, Paul George, Jimmy Butler...
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#323 » by TheBonzaiEffect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:49 pm

guille_4 wrote:
Wagonband wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:[
Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.


It's a legit debate. Everyone pretending it's not is just so full of himself he can't think logically. You could find arguments for both. You are probably one of those "and it's not even close" guys. They are both legit top 7 players in the NBA. Depends on the game they have where you rank them 1-7


I'm a huge Luka fan but IMO he's a tier 2 superstar. With KD and Curry back, he's likely no longer All-NBA 1st team. Still definitely an All-NBA player, an allstar and a top-10 player.

IMO Lebron, KD, Kawhi, Harden, Giannis, AD, Curry are the top-7 players in the NBA.

And Luka is in upper segment of the next tier with Embiid, Lillard, Jayson Tatum, Paul George, Jimmy Butler...



That's weird considering Luka has been superior to Curry in literally every metric possible...
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#324 » by TheBonzaiEffect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:53 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
J_T wrote:
Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Nice strawman.

I didn't say defense proves nothing. I said "defensive stats" like D Rating are useless.

What does offense have to do with being targeted on defense. By that logic, Trae Young must be a DPOY. :lol:

Luka is not a good defensive player. Stop being such a homer and try looking at things objectively.

Don't quote "strawman" when you yourself got caught in some bad logic there. Even if true that Doncic was targeted on D, that doesn't mean that it's because of bad D. You CLAIM that it's because of bad D, but it could have been also because everyone except you knows that it's good to target offensive juggernauts on D, if nothing else just to tire them. But if they happen to get a few extra personal fouls during the process, even better. It's the main reason why top Clippers guns were not defending Luka as much as people thought they would.

But I understand that this concept might be slightly above your pay grade.

luka is bad at a couple things on D that ive noticed. he doesnt guard guards at all, hes too slow. He doesnt have the hands of a guy like jokic, and he just is good at using his heavy base against power players. He is an excellent target for a guy like dennis shroder or victor oladipo who likes to get a head of steam and blow by.

Harden is a better defender than luka and using stats for this season is kinda unfair given the drama. Harden has quicker feet, better hands, and great hands with the same good strength based defense as luka.

some same defenders that will blow by luka will also blow by harden as well, but harden has a better chance of picking up a steal or forcing them to do something stupid or contesting their pullup J.


Harden is nowhere near Luka currently as a defender. Oh, using stats for this season isn't fair? Luka's DBPM is currently at 1.9. Harden's career high is 1.6. So Luka is already a better defender than Harden has been at any point in his career.

No, Luka can't guard super quick PGs/SGs. Neither can Harden. But Luka is MUCH better guarding big wings on the perimeter. He's played great D on guys like PG13, LeBron, etc. on the perimeter. Both are good post defenders. Another big facet is Harden is lazy/unaware and gets lost on D a lot. He's probably the easiest guy in the NBA to backdoor cut on.

Luka is showing serious chops of being a very good defender in only his 3rd year. His current level of defense (we shall see if he keeps it up), is better than Harden's has ever been, and that's just an objective fact.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#325 » by KhalilS » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:03 pm

guille_4 wrote:
Wagonband wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:[
Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.


It's a legit debate. Everyone pretending it's not is just so full of himself he can't think logically. You could find arguments for both. You are probably one of those "and it's not even close" guys. They are both legit top 7 players in the NBA. Depends on the game they have where you rank them 1-7


I'm a huge Luka fan but IMO he's a tier 2 superstar. With KD and Curry back, he's likely no longer All-NBA 1st team. Still definitely an All-NBA player, an allstar and a top-10 player.

IMO Lebron, KD, Kawhi, Harden, Giannis, AD, Curry are the top-7 players in the NBA.

And Luka is in upper segment of the next tier with Embiid, Lillard, Jayson Tatum, Paul George, Jimmy Butler...


That remains to be seen, from game 3 to game 12 of the Mavs Luka played out of his mind, and last game he was simply out of gas, anyone who watched the last few games will understand.
I don't think anyone can claim that Luka is better than accomplished player like Harden right now, but these 7-8 games Luka, with a normal roster, is an all NBA 1st team and MVP, we'll see how it goes from here once JRich, DFS and Kleber are back and KP stops chucking 35 footers and starts diversifying his offensive output, against Toronto he wasn't as bad.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#326 » by Lockdown504090 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:16 pm

TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
J_T wrote:Don't quote "strawman" when you yourself got caught in some bad logic there. Even if true that Doncic was targeted on D, that doesn't mean that it's because of bad D. You CLAIM that it's because of bad D, but it could have been also because everyone except you knows that it's good to target offensive juggernauts on D, if nothing else just to tire them. But if they happen to get a few extra personal fouls during the process, even better. It's the main reason why top Clippers guns were not defending Luka as much as people thought they would.

But I understand that this concept might be slightly above your pay grade.

luka is bad at a couple things on D that ive noticed. he doesnt guard guards at all, hes too slow. He doesnt have the hands of a guy like jokic, and he just is good at using his heavy base against power players. He is an excellent target for a guy like dennis shroder or victor oladipo who likes to get a head of steam and blow by.

Harden is a better defender than luka and using stats for this season is kinda unfair given the drama. Harden has quicker feet, better hands, and great hands with the same good strength based defense as luka.

some same defenders that will blow by luka will also blow by harden as well, but harden has a better chance of picking up a steal or forcing them to do something stupid or contesting their pullup J.


Harden is nowhere near Luka currently as a defender. Oh, using stats for this season isn't fair? Luka's DBPM is currently at 1.9. Harden's career high is 1.6. So Luka is already a better defender than Harden has been at any point in his career.

No, Luka can't guard super quick PGs/SGs. Neither can Harden. But Luka is MUCH better guarding big wings on the perimeter. He's played great D on guys like PG13, LeBron, etc. on the perimeter. Both are good post defenders. Another big facet is Harden is lazy/unaware and gets lost on D a lot. He's probably the easiest guy in the NBA to backdoor cut on.

Luka is showing serious chops of being a very good defender in only his 3rd year. His current level of defense (we shall see if he keeps it up), is better than Harden's has ever been, and that's just an objective fact.
harden spent most of his career as a serious negative and improved significantly. I don’t think harden was lazy the last three years in Houston on D . I need to see more of luka on the big wing players, I only have one series to look at and I’m not sure if it’s luka or the clippers just playing awful in the first round
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#327 » by LoneyROY » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:49 pm

TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
I'm confused. So...you're wow'd by Harden 34/6/12, but not by Luka averaging better than that with better defense over a 6 game stretch? Luka is better than Harden.


Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.

They have similar playstyles...except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general, and a better shooter. Real tough call. :lol:

Oh, and you know what Harden is averaging this year outside of the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to get out of Houston? 35/12/7. It ain't close.


You mean the TWO game sample size? Which is worse than Luka's SIX game sample size? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imagine thinking Harden is better than Luka when Luka has a better PER, BPM, and VORP. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#328 » by GeorgeGervin » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:50 pm

I think Luka's getting too much hate on this forum. Maybe you guys don't like fresh blood, but there's no way a guy almost averaging a 30 points triple double while playing good defense shouldn't be in the MVP conversation.
Not saying he is the MVP, but he is clearly playing elite offense while providing good defense.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#329 » by Some smartguy » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:51 pm

LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.

They have similar playstyles...except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general, and a better shooter. Real tough call. :lol:

Oh, and you know what Harden is averaging this year outside of the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to get out of Houston? 35/12/7. It ain't close.


You mean the TWO game sample size? Which is worse than Luka's SIX game sample size? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imagine thinking Harden is better than Luka when Luka has a better PER, BPM, and VORP. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.

James Harden has played 2 games for the Nets. That means you were using a sample size of 2 unless you are counting the Houston games.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#330 » by LoneyROY » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:53 pm

Some smartguy wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
You mean the TWO game sample size? Which is worse than Luka's SIX game sample size? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imagine thinking Harden is better than Luka when Luka has a better PER, BPM, and VORP. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.

James Harden has played 2 games for the Nets. That means you were using a sample size of 2 unless you are counting the Houston games.


Yes, I used the first 3 Houston games as I noted, before the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to force a trade.

But personally, I like to use eye test as well to evaluate...and Harden's simply just a more talented player. Quickness, handles, strength, shooting. It's all Harden.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#331 » by Archx » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:00 pm

LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
pr0wler wrote:I thought Luka was better than Harden though, according to RealGM poll...? :lol:


I'm confused. So...you're wow'd by Harden 34/6/12, but not by Luka averaging better than that with better defense over a 6 game stretch? Luka is better than Harden.


Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.

They have similar playstyles...except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general, and a better shooter. Real tough call. :lol:

Oh, and you know what Harden is averaging this year outside of the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to get out of Houston? 35/12/7. It ain't close.


This is kinda weak argument. Luka plays with G-league players right now while Harden plays on a team which will likely go very far in the playoffs. Also has designated targets to pass the ball to ( Harris & KD ). Both great shooters and floor spacers.

When Harden played with Houston, by his own definition lesser team, he was Rick Rolled by Doncic. So, does Harden make Mavs magically better if they switch places? I hardly think so...


"except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general"


How is this an argument by which you say player A is better than player B? By this logic Rudy Gobert is the MVP and Jokic is a 3rd stringer... :o
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#332 » by LoneyROY » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:01 pm

Archx wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
I'm confused. So...you're wow'd by Harden 34/6/12, but not by Luka averaging better than that with better defense over a 6 game stretch? Luka is better than Harden.


Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.

They have similar playstyles...except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general, and a better shooter. Real tough call. :lol:

Oh, and you know what Harden is averaging this year outside of the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to get out of Houston? 35/12/7. It ain't close.


This is kinda weak argument. Luka plays with G-league players right now while Harden plays on a team which will likely go very far in the playoffs. Also has designated targets to pass the ball to ( Harris & KD ). Both great shooters and floor spacers.

When Harden played with Houston, by his own definition lesser team, he was Rick Rolled by Doncic. So, does Harden make Mavs magically better if they switch places? I hardly think so...


"except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general"


How is this an argument by which you say player A is better than a player B? By this logic Rudy Gobert is the MVP and Jokic is a 3rd stringer... :o


Do Jokic and Gobert have similar playstyles? No they don't. Their skillsets are remarkably different.

Harden and Luka, on other hand, do have similar skillsets and that makes physical traits a big factor when comparing the two.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#333 » by TheBonzaiEffect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:04 pm

LoneyROY wrote:
Some smartguy wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.

James Harden has played 2 games for the Nets. That means you were using a sample size of 2 unless you are counting the Houston games.


Yes, I used the first 3 Houston games as I noted, before the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to force a trade.

But personally, I like to use eye test as well to evaluate...and Harden's simply just a more talented player. Quickness, handles, strength, shooting. It's all Harden.


:lol: :lol: :lol: So he was trying in 3 of the Houston games, but not the other 5. Sorry, were we supposed to intuitively know your egregious cherry picking process?
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#334 » by TheBonzaiEffect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:06 pm

LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
Imagine actually thinking Luka is better than Harden.

They have similar playstyles...except Harden is faster, stronger, just far more explosive in general, and a better shooter. Real tough call. :lol:

Oh, and you know what Harden is averaging this year outside of the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to get out of Houston? 35/12/7. It ain't close.


You mean the TWO game sample size? Which is worse than Luka's SIX game sample size? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imagine thinking Harden is better than Luka when Luka has a better PER, BPM, and VORP. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.



No, I don't think Harden is "physically superior." We can't really measure that, though. Which is kind of what you're hanging your hat on...unquantifiable opinions...
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#335 » by LoneyROY » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:07 pm

TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
Some smartguy wrote:James Harden has played 2 games for the Nets. That means you were using a sample size of 2 unless you are counting the Houston games.


Yes, I used the first 3 Houston games as I noted, before the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to force a trade.

But personally, I like to use eye test as well to evaluate...and Harden's simply just a more talented player. Quickness, handles, strength, shooting. It's all Harden.


:lol: :lol: :lol: So he was trying in 3 of the Houston games, but not the other 5. Sorry, were we supposed to intuitively know your egregious cherry picking process?


You can believe whatever you please...I personally don't need a 2, 3, or 6-game sample size to validate Harden's ability and production. He's been doing it for YEARS.

Like I said, the eye test is clear and Harden has put up more than enough stats over the years to validate that.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#336 » by LoneyROY » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:11 pm

TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
You mean the TWO game sample size? Which is worse than Luka's SIX game sample size? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imagine thinking Harden is better than Luka when Luka has a better PER, BPM, and VORP. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.



No, I don't think Harden is "physically superior." We can't really measure that, though. Which is kind of what you're hanging your hat on...unquantifiable opinions...


Unquantifiable? So do you watch basketball or do you just read the statistics after the game?

I personally watch the games...I watch the players and their athletic exploits. Harden is on a different level as an athlete than Doncic, that much is not really debatable.
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#337 » by TheBonzaiEffect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:23 pm

LoneyROY wrote:
TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.



No, I don't think Harden is "physically superior." We can't really measure that, though. Which is kind of what you're hanging your hat on...unquantifiable opinions...


Unquantifiable? So do you watch basketball or do you just read the statistics after the game?

I personally watch the games...I watch the players and their athletic exploits. Harden is on a different level as an athlete than Doncic, that much is not really debatable.


You got me, I don't watch any games and your opinion, rooted in nothing objective, is gospel! :wink:
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#338 » by Yuri36 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:39 pm

LoneyROY wrote:
Some smartguy wrote:
LoneyROY wrote:
Uh, no bud I used a 5-game sample...1 short of your 6-game sample that deemed Luka the best in the league. :lol:

And interesting you have no response to Harden simply being physically superior.

James Harden has played 2 games for the Nets. That means you were using a sample size of 2 unless you are counting the Houston games.


Yes, I used the first 3 Houston games as I noted, before the 5-game stretch in which he purposely tanked to force a trade.

But personally, I like to use eye test as well to evaluate...and Harden's simply just a more talented player. Quickness, handles, strength, shooting. It's all Harden.


What about passing and rebounding, two areas where Luka literally destroys Harden?
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Re: Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race 

Post#339 » by guille_4 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:22 pm

TheBonzaiEffect wrote:
guille_4 wrote:
Wagonband wrote:
It's a legit debate. Everyone pretending it's not is just so full of himself he can't think logically. You could find arguments for both. You are probably one of those "and it's not even close" guys. They are both legit top 7 players in the NBA. Depends on the game they have where you rank them 1-7


I'm a huge Luka fan but IMO he's a tier 2 superstar. With KD and Curry back, he's likely no longer All-NBA 1st team. Still definitely an All-NBA player, an allstar and a top-10 player.

IMO Lebron, KD, Kawhi, Harden, Giannis, AD, Curry are the top-7 players in the NBA.

And Luka is in upper segment of the next tier with Embiid, Lillard, Jayson Tatum, Paul George, Jimmy Butler...


That's weird considering Luka has been superior to Curry in literally every metric possible...


Steph is coming out off an injury, I'm not basing my opinion on 10-13 games this season but on the players they are. You could argue Curry belongs to the second tier, but I'd still much rather have Curry in game 7 of a play offs series than Luka. He's proven.

I do hope Luka proves me wrong.

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