DPOY thread

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DPOY 20/21 season

Rudy Gobert
79
48%
Ben Simmons
36
22%
Joel Embiid
5
3%
Marcus Smart
1
1%
Myles Turner
9
5%
Kawhi Leonard
2
1%
Anthony Davis
3
2%
Giannis Antetokoumpo
9
5%
Draymond Green
5
3%
Other (Dort, Anunoby, Capela, etc.)
15
9%
 
Total votes: 164

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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#161 » by Hikari » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:24 pm

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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#162 » by lobosloboslobos » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:06 am

Interesting that on the last page we were talking about defensive versatility and also comparing OG and Simmons. Today BBallIndex posted their rankings for most versatile defender this year. OG is 4th and Simmons 5th. The biggest difference between them is OG spends 43% covering bigs and Simmons only 29%. Pretty even overall though.

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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#163 » by DCasey91 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:53 am

Gobert will probably win it again that’s fair enough. But an interesting observation he does bleed a lot of value in the playoffs as results have shown. He isn’t fleet footed to recover.

Love OG he’s a stud. Might be bias as a fan of Simmons but my god he has been a nightmare on defence for well over a year now. He has more size than OG. Shoulda seen when he went out to sit last night. Our perimeter defense cratered was funny to watch. At least other raptors (Siakam and co.) can cover matchups abit more effectively.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#164 » by GSP » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:46 am

Its pretty crazy Ben is near unanimously seen as a better defender than Joel now not only by most fans but even media these days. He was higher in Dpoy voting last year and will likely be again. I dont disagree but it shows the improvements hes made and there are some who act like hes still the same guy from his rookie season
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#165 » by DCasey91 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 am

GSP wrote:Its pretty crazy Ben is near unanimously seen as a better defender than Joel now not only by most fans but even media these days. He was higher in Dpoy voting last year and will likely be again. I dont disagree but it shows the improvements hes made and there are some who act like hes still the same guy from his rookie season



Yep correct kinda like Spurs Leonard. Embiid defensive impact has dropped off quite abit past two years. Reputation etc.
Whereas Ben has gone bananas on that end.

Embiid has gone like prime Dirk on offense so far this year though lol.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#166 » by Basileus777 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:03 am

lobosloboslobos wrote:Interesting that on the last page we were talking about defensive versatility and also comparing OG and Simmons. Today BBallIndex posted their rankings for most versatile defender this year. OG is 4th and Simmons 5th. The biggest difference between them is OG spends 43% covering bigs and Simmons only 29%. Pretty even overall though.

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Isn't this really just a measure of how much these teams use switching as a defensive strategy? I don't think anyone is calling James Harden the most versatile defender in the league.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#167 » by KqWIN » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:22 am

GSP wrote:Its pretty crazy Ben is near unanimously seen as a better defender than Joel now not only by most fans but even media these days. He was higher in Dpoy voting last year and will likely be again. I dont disagree but it shows the improvements hes made and there are some who act like hes still the same guy from his rookie season


Year after year the numbers show that Ben cannot carry a defense. The defense comes and goes with Embiid. This year is the same, except the defense is bad with only Embiid as well.

Ben might be the best at what he does on defense. I don’t think what people say about him is necessarily wrong, but to me it’s fairly obvious that Embiid is the more impactful (and thus better) defender.

There’s really no statistical basis to have Ben ahead of Embiid. It’s heavily favored towards Embiid. I can’t really consider Ben a serious DPOY candidate until he comes close to Embiid.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#168 » by EireannX » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:11 am

DCasey91 wrote:Gobert will probably win it again that’s fair enough. But an interesting observation he does bleed a lot of value in the playoffs as results have shown. He isn’t fleet footed to recover.


Except they haven't really shown that.

See https://www.forbes.com/sites/bendowsett/2020/06/29/rudy-goberts-improved-perimeter-defense-is-an-major-tool-for-the-utah-jazz/?sh=3a7c4f8775c5, it is based on last year but he was the #1 isolation defender on significant volume, and much of that was on switches against guards. His recovery is elite level, and people hanging on the one year he was coming back from injury need a new slant.

The years that we got rolled by Houston, our defence was fine. Both Harden and Capela shot below their season averages and scored below their season averages during the series. And our defensive strategy was to defend Harden from the side to prevent stepback 3s and foul baiting and give him a lane to drive, relying on Gobert to cover both Harden and Capela.

We didn't get rolled on defense, we got totally rolled on offense. Chris Paul cheated off Rubio to help cover every pick and roll, leaving him wide open on the perimeter. He shot 20% from 3 before giving up. Basically every offensive possession reset every time Rubio got the ball and our offense cratered as a result. It turned into Mitchell playing late shot clock hero ball and there's no efficiency to be had there.

Houston's scoring average for the series was 5PPG below their season average. Utah's was 11 below their own.

And so we have had the retooling of the last two years, replacing strong defensive non-shooters with proper perimeter threats, even when it has led to a drop in defensive prowess. And it seems to be paying off.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#169 » by Mighty Quinn » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:24 am

I'd say OG. Dude is ridiculously long and could guard any wing at any pace.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#170 » by LoveMyRaps » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:19 pm

Let's hear some All-Defense teams predictions.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#171 » by Catchall » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:07 am

According to Cleaning the Glass, the Jazz now have the #1 defensive rating in the league, along with a top-4 offense.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#172 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:16 pm

DCasey91 wrote:Gobert will probably win it again that’s fair enough. But an interesting observation he does bleed a lot of value in the playoffs as results have shown. He isn’t fleet footed to recover.

Love OG he’s a stud. Might be bias as a fan of Simmons but my god he has been a nightmare on defence for well over a year now. He has more size than OG. Shoulda seen when he went out to sit last night. Our perimeter defense cratered was funny to watch. At least other raptors (Siakam and co.) can cover matchups abit more effectively.


I don't buy this playoff thing. His team has struggled against Harden....and mostly because of bad coaching, not his play.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#173 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:17 pm

GSP wrote:Its pretty crazy Ben is near unanimously seen as a better defender than Joel now not only by most fans but even media these days. He was higher in Dpoy voting last year and will likely be again. I dont disagree but it shows the improvements hes made and there are some who act like hes still the same guy from his rookie season


I don't see him as the better defender, but the growth there is insane. People who think Ben isn't progressing is just crazy talk.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#174 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:59 pm

It's amazing how much talk guys who aren't rim protectors get in these discussions when they have no place there.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#175 » by JN61 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:41 pm

I like Gobert. To me it doesn't even matter if he wouldn't be statistically best or Utah being the best defensive team in the league. This is case where Utah is so much ahead rest of the pack at this point that gotta hand it to Gobert, anchoring one of the best defences, having massive lead to other teams and so on.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#176 » by Panic610 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:27 am

dhsilv2 wrote:It's amazing how much talk guys who aren't rim protectors get in these discussions when they have no place there.


And for that reason there should be two separate awards Inside and Perimeter DPOY.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#177 » by kuclas » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:11 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:how is Simmons a candidate and not Embiid? Does not compute.

I feel like propping up Simmons as some sort of DPOY candidate is basically a coping mechanism for him being just about the worst shooter in the league.

Embiid is very plainly the best defensive piece on the 76ers.

They both need each other. The perimeter defense sucks for sixers without Simmons.

Just look at the games Embiid has played without Simmons. Blow out Loss to both a
Hawks and Portland. Embiid could score at will in both games but the perimeter defense rendered Embiid interior defense meaningless. Or one can look at the bubble sweep to the Celtics where their guards got off almost any shot they want. Without Simmons 6 foot 10 body roaming and pestering the perimeter. It becomes hard to become a defensive anchor center when perimeter guys are open all day

But Simmons needs Embiid rim deterrent/protection. Simmons can gamble more knowing Embiid is at the rim.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#178 » by KqWIN » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:47 am

kuclas wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:how is Simmons a candidate and not Embiid? Does not compute.

I feel like propping up Simmons as some sort of DPOY candidate is basically a coping mechanism for him being just about the worst shooter in the league.

Embiid is very plainly the best defensive piece on the 76ers.

They both need each other. The perimeter defense sucks for sixers without Simmons.

Just look at the games Embiid has played without Simmons. Blow out Loss to both a
Hawks and Portland. Embiid could score at will in both games but the perimeter defense rendered Embiid interior defense meaningless. Or one can look at the bubble sweep to the Celtics where their guards got off almost any shot they want. Without Simmons 6 foot 10 body roaming and pestering the perimeter. It becomes hard to become a defensive anchor center when perimeter guys are open all day

But Simmons needs Embiid rim deterrent/protection. Simmons can gamble more knowing Embiid is at the rim.


Long term data really does not support this.

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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#179 » by DCasey91 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:04 am

All I know is Ben locked up Doncic big time. 7to’s. Against marquee matchups first pick is Ben. (suspected he would, Ben is an nightmare matchup for Luka). There’s big big value there

Siakam
Grant
Leonard
Giannis
James
Tatum
Doncic
Westbrook
Lillard

I’m taking Ben no question. If you’re not a Bulky Center/jitterbug guard (he is getter better at that), Ben is Public Enemy Number 1.
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Re: DPOY thread 

Post#180 » by kuclas » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:28 am

KqWIN wrote:
kuclas wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I feel like propping up Simmons as some sort of DPOY candidate is basically a coping mechanism for him being just about the worst shooter in the league.

Embiid is very plainly the best defensive piece on the 76ers.

They both need each other. The perimeter defense sucks for sixers without Simmons.

Just look at the games Embiid has played without Simmons. Blow out Loss to both a
Hawks and Portland. Embiid could score at will in both games but the perimeter defense rendered Embiid interior defense meaningless. Or one can look at the bubble sweep to the Celtics where their guards got off almost any shot they want. Without Simmons 6 foot 10 body roaming and pestering the perimeter. It becomes hard to become a defensive anchor center when perimeter guys are open all day

But Simmons needs Embiid rim deterrent/protection. Simmons can gamble more knowing Embiid is at the rim.


Long term data really does not support this.

Image


I’m a huge Embiid fan. Not really a Simmons fan.

But Simmons defense has been amazing on the perimeter. Just watch the games.

Yeah. Anytime you lose an Embiid as defensive anchor the defense is gonna to take a big hit. The paint is wide open when he leaves the floor.

But the few games last season. The bubble playoffs and the two games Simmons has missed. Sixers perimeter defense just looked bad.

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