Is Fred VanVleet an all star?

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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#241 » by sllubwoc » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:25 pm

nikster wrote:
sllubwoc wrote:
nikster wrote:The record thing could change drastically. Since their 2-8 start raptors have turned things around and are playing at 55 win pace. Bulls are in the playoff spot now, but with how tight things are in the East they could just as easily end up in 12th as in the playoffs


So Raptors will win 55 and the Bulls will finish near the bottom in the East. Interesting.

No point in coversing if your gonna ignore the point I was trying to make. Even If you took what I said at face value as a literal prediction of the rest of the season,I would expect Raps to finish with 43 wins.


No the question is, should Van be an all star over players such as Zach Lavine. Your rebuttal is on the line of "Even though we aren't any better then the Bulls right now, Raptors will finish as a top seed and the Bulls will finish towards the bottom and due to that Van deserves the nod over someone who is far superior at playing basketball.." Just enjoying the takes of all the Raptor fans here is all.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#242 » by ATRAIN53 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:The dude has more blocked shots than Ben Simmons and he's 5"11 with a five inch vert and gator arms. Give him the spot!


Preech!

even has 10 more steals than him too!

He probably is an actual foot shorter than Simmons who was the #1 pick the year Fred got passed over at least twice by every team and went undrafted and battled his way onto the roster.

Simmons was All Defense last year and I hear a lot of NBA podcasters and NBA writes call Simmons a great defender.....

Not too shabby for an UNDRAFTED kid out of Rockford who got lowly Wichita State in the the Final 4 and a Sweet 16.

He should be the feel good story of the ASG.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#243 » by cool007 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:46 pm

Yeezus_ wrote:lol Lavine will definitely get the allstar spot over Fred I think due to raw stats but no competent GM is taking Lavine over Fred to win a championship.


This is gotta be joke right?
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#244 » by sllubwoc » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:55 pm

On a side note. If anyone wants to make good money. Nobody realizes that the Zach Lavine led Bulls are actually a very competent team. Raptor fans have proven here that they have no clue and it seems that the guys in Vegas also have no clue. The Bulls are almost always dogs or just slight favorites in every match up. Even against teams that the Bulls are far superior against. I think the trend will start to end soon when Zach makes the all star game and the Bulls start winning more often, but if for some reason it doesn't keep your eye open. I've won really good money on Bulls spreads this year.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#245 » by nikster » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:00 pm

sllubwoc wrote:
nikster wrote:
sllubwoc wrote:
So Raptors will win 55 and the Bulls will finish near the bottom in the East. Interesting.

No point in coversing if your gonna ignore the point I was trying to make. Even If you took what I said at face value as a literal prediction of the rest of the season,I would expect Raps to finish with 43 wins.


No the question is, should Van be an all star over players such as Zach Lavine. Your rebuttal is on the line of "Even though we aren't any better then the Bulls right now, Raptors will finish as a top seed and the Bulls will finish towards the bottom and due to that Van deserves the nod over someone who is far superior at playing basketball.." Just enjoying the takes of all the Raptor fans here is all.

I think Lavine is a better player this season, and that he should get the spot over FVV even if there was a wider gap in the record.

Somebody just used the record to justify Lavine over Fred, was just pointing out the flaws in that argument
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#246 » by raptor jesus » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:08 pm

sllubwoc wrote:On a side note. If anyone wants to make good money. Nobody realizes that the Zach Lavine led Bulls are actually a very competent team. Raptor fans have proven here that they have no clue and it seems that the guys in Vegas also have no clue. The Bulls are almost always dogs or just slight favorites in every match up. Even against teams that the Bulls are far superior against. I think the trend will start to end soon when Zach makes the all star game and the Bulls start winning more often, but if for some reason it doesn't keep your eye open. I've won really good money on Bulls spreads this year.


Good call - looks like the Bulls are 18-12 ATS this year, 3rd best in the league behind Utah and Phx. And I agree, Lavine becoming an All-Star will make them a more public team, and drive their price up.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#247 » by khufure » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:15 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:Lowry + Powell + 1st for Lavine and Porter Jr?

So you want us to give a 25yo hard worker good culture SG about to make 1st all star due to basically 50-40-90 huge efficiency 30 points+ per game ... for a mid 30s guard. Oh, and for the icing on the cake lets include a swap of a pretty good young lottery pick C for a 2nd round 27yo meh short SG making $21M for 2 years. That's not all, you'll throw in ~15-25 pick 1st round to entice!! Danny Aigne is that you? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: in what universe would the Bulls EVER consider this? Everything you just offered was complete garbage and it's a miracle you can do it with a straight face. Are you by chance good at selling used cars?
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#248 » by RapsFan2000 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:16 pm

If he was on an American team, I'm sure he'd be up there in votes. Unfortunately, the Raptors get no love from media or American voters so its tough. I'd put him over Ben Simmons, Rozier and Brogdon. People don't watch all the Raptors games and don't see his impact on the court.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#249 » by RaptorPride » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:21 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:The dude has more blocked shots than Ben Simmons and he's 5"11 with a five inch vert and gator arms. Give him the spot!


Preech!

even has 10 more steals than him too!

He probably is an actual foot shorter than Simmons who was the #1 pick the year Fred got passed over at least twice by every team and went undrafted and battled his way onto the roster.

Simmons was All Defense last year and I hear a lot of NBA podcasters and NBA writes call Simmons a great defender.....

Not too shabby for an UNDRAFTED kid out of Rockford who got lowly Wichita State in the the Final 4 and a Sweet 16.

He should be the feel good story of the ASG.

Damn I didn't even know this
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#250 » by SF_Warriors » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:26 pm

VanWest82 wrote:This debate reminds me so much of the Derozan vs. Lowry debates from 5-6 years ago. The majority of NBA fans were sure Derozan was the better player because his stats looked better (He averaged 27 ppg!), and Raptors fans were screaming at the top of their lungs that Lowry easily impacted winning more. DD has two All NBA nods to Lowry's one. Siakam even has one over him. It's a disgrace.

Now Fred has taken over the mantle of the no stats all star who influences winning way more than a lot of these DH all stars but doesn't get the credit for it. People are still too easily influenced by raw stats and shooting splits.

Not that these are a bunch better, but...

RPM: FVV +3.87, Lavine +0.49
LEBRON: FVV +3.16, Lavine +0.23
RAPTOR: FVV +6.8, Lavine +1.8

Any of the advanced stats that don't rely on offensive box score and actually look at defense say Fred is a way better player.


Looking at RAPTOR stats for this season, it has Capela ahead of AD, Giannis, Gobert, steph curry..

Am I supposed to believe Capela is better suited for the ASG than those guys?

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#251 » by PistolPeteJR » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:35 pm

khufure wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:Lowry + Powell + 1st for Lavine and Porter Jr?

So you want us to give a 25yo hard worker good culture SG about to make 1st all star due to basically 50-40-90 huge efficiency 30 points+ per game ... for a mid 30s guard. Oh, and for the icing on the cake lets include a swap of a pretty good young lottery pick C for a 2nd round 27yo meh short SG making $21M for 2 years. That's not all, you'll throw in ~15-25 pick 1st round to entice!! Danny Aigne is that you? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: in what universe would the Bulls EVER consider this? Everything you just offered was complete garbage and it's a miracle you can do it with a straight face. Are you by chance good at selling used cars?


1) If you go and read the rest of this thread, you'll see that I mistakened Porter for having a few years left on his contract, and so there was value in my mind for the expiring.

2) If you think Powell is a "2nd round 27yo meh", you don't know anything about him at all.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#252 » by MissileMike » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:38 pm

SF_Warriors wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:This debate reminds me so much of the Derozan vs. Lowry debates from 5-6 years ago. The majority of NBA fans were sure Derozan was the better player because his stats looked better (He averaged 27 ppg!), and Raptors fans were screaming at the top of their lungs that Lowry easily impacted winning more. DD has two All NBA nods to Lowry's one. Siakam even has one over him. It's a disgrace.

Now Fred has taken over the mantle of the no stats all star who influences winning way more than a lot of these DH all stars but doesn't get the credit for it. People are still too easily influenced by raw stats and shooting splits.

Not that these are a bunch better, but...

RPM: FVV +3.87, Lavine +0.49
LEBRON: FVV +3.16, Lavine +0.23
RAPTOR: FVV +6.8, Lavine +1.8

Any of the advanced stats that don't rely on offensive box score and actually look at defense say Fred is a way better player.


Looking at RAPTOR stats for this season, it has Capela ahead of AD, Giannis, Gobert, steph curry..

Am I supposed to believe Capela is better suited for the ASG than those guys?

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/


Any metric where your rating is influenced by Coby White... is flawed.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#253 » by sllubwoc » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:38 pm

raptor jesus wrote:
sllubwoc wrote:On a side note. If anyone wants to make good money. Nobody realizes that the Zach Lavine led Bulls are actually a very competent team. Raptor fans have proven here that they have no clue and it seems that the guys in Vegas also have no clue. The Bulls are almost always dogs or just slight favorites in every match up. Even against teams that the Bulls are far superior against. I think the trend will start to end soon when Zach makes the all star game and the Bulls start winning more often, but if for some reason it doesn't keep your eye open. I've won really good money on Bulls spreads this year.


Good call - looks like the Bulls are 18-12 ATS this year, 3rd best in the league behind Utah and Phx. And I agree, Lavine becoming an All-Star will make them a more public team, and drive their price up.


I have been telling all my friends who are degenerate sports gamblers like me all season that the Bulls are getting straight up disrespected in games vs teams like the Hornets/Kings/Rockets ect. Yesterday in our usual group text at lunch about what NBA games we like that night I said "Guys, Woods and Oladipo are both out tonight...you know...the 2 guys who scored 30 a piece last time they played the Bulls. All you have to do is give 2 points for even odds. The ticket will be cashed by mid 3rd quarter."

What I didn't mention to them was to also get in on the Wizards money line vs the Lakers because well...I never tell anyone I am betting on a team with Westbrick. Those bets my friends only find out about after the game..depending outcome. :lol:
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#254 » by VanWest82 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:17 pm

SF_Warriors wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:This debate reminds me so much of the Derozan vs. Lowry debates from 5-6 years ago. The majority of NBA fans were sure Derozan was the better player because his stats looked better (He averaged 27 ppg!), and Raptors fans were screaming at the top of their lungs that Lowry easily impacted winning more. DD has two All NBA nods to Lowry's one. Siakam even has one over him. It's a disgrace.

Now Fred has taken over the mantle of the no stats all star who influences winning way more than a lot of these DH all stars but doesn't get the credit for it. People are still too easily influenced by raw stats and shooting splits.

Not that these are a bunch better, but...

RPM: FVV +3.87, Lavine +0.49
LEBRON: FVV +3.16, Lavine +0.23
RAPTOR: FVV +6.8, Lavine +1.8

Any of the advanced stats that don't rely on offensive box score and actually look at defense say Fred is a way better player.


Looking at RAPTOR stats for this season, it has Capela ahead of AD, Giannis, Gobert, steph curry..

Am I supposed to believe Capela is better suited for the ASG than those guys?

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/


On a per min basis they’re all close but those guys are ahead of him in the aggregate (WAR).

As for your question, it depends if you’d like to see defense in the all star game given that’s where all of Capela’s value is. Do you think Rudy Gobert should be in the all star game? If we don’t care about defensive impact and we only want to show case guys with all star caliber offensive skill then I guess the answer is no to guys like Capela, Gobert, Turner, etc. I personally think the all star game sucks when guys aren’t playing any defense.

Also, none of these plus/minus based impact stats are perfect but more often than not they do give a better snap shot of value than box score based stuff.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#255 » by SF_Warriors » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:22 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
SF_Warriors wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:This debate reminds me so much of the Derozan vs. Lowry debates from 5-6 years ago. The majority of NBA fans were sure Derozan was the better player because his stats looked better (He averaged 27 ppg!), and Raptors fans were screaming at the top of their lungs that Lowry easily impacted winning more. DD has two All NBA nods to Lowry's one. Siakam even has one over him. It's a disgrace.

Now Fred has taken over the mantle of the no stats all star who influences winning way more than a lot of these DH all stars but doesn't get the credit for it. People are still too easily influenced by raw stats and shooting splits.

Not that these are a bunch better, but...

RPM: FVV +3.87, Lavine +0.49
LEBRON: FVV +3.16, Lavine +0.23
RAPTOR: FVV +6.8, Lavine +1.8

Any of the advanced stats that don't rely on offensive box score and actually look at defense say Fred is a way better player.


Looking at RAPTOR stats for this season, it has Capela ahead of AD, Giannis, Gobert, steph curry..

Am I supposed to believe Capela is better suited for the ASG than those guys?

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/


On a per min basis they’re all close but those guys are ahead of him in the aggregate (WAR).

As for your question, it depends if you’d like to see defense in the all star game given that’s where The majority of Capela’s value is. Do you think Rudy Gobert should be in the all star game? If we don’t care about defensive impact and we only want to show case guys with all star caliber offensive skill then I guess the answer is no to guys like Capela, Gobert, Turner, etc.

Also, none of these plus/minus based impact stats are perfect but more often than not they do give a better snap shot of value than box score based stuff.


I do think gobert should be considered to be an all star. His defensive impact is near transcendant, elite rim protection and rebounding..you cant say that about any part of van vleets game although he is basically giving all star impact or at least close to it.

My point is that jist because someone has a higher raptor and war, doesnt necessarily mean they are a better player..would I take capela over bam adebayo who has a lower raptor and war? Probably not.

Van vleet has a higher raptor and war than giannis but no one would tell you they would choose fvv because of those numbers.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#256 » by everdiso » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:35 pm

It'll be classic NBA to see the Raps be the highest ranked team without any all-star representation.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#257 » by VanWest82 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:45 pm

SF_Warriors wrote:I do think gobert should be considered to be an all star. His defensive impact is near transcendant, elite rim protection and rebounding..you cant say that about any part of van vleets game although he is basically giving all star impact or at least close to it.

It would seem Capela is giving similar, albeit lesser, defensive impact to Gobert. Their stats are almost identical. Other than mins played and team wins, it feels silly to say Gobert should be considered and Capela shouldn't when they're essentially providing the same things.

I agree there is no transcendent piece to VanVleet's game. He's just a do-it-all, under-the-radar impact guy. He's exactly like Lowry was, and like Lowry it's probably going to take years worth of winning and dominating advanced stats for people to finally give him credit, and many still won't because he's never going to dominate the box score.

My point is that jist because someone has a higher raptor and war, doesnt necessarily mean they are a better player..would I take capela over bam adebayo who has a lower raptor and war? Probably not.

Van vleet has a higher raptor and war than giannis but no one would tell you they would choose fvv because of those numbers.

I'd take Adebayo over Capela too. Like I said, it's not perfect. But it's also interesting that a lot of these advanced stats don't like Bam as much as the box score and eye test do. That doesn't mean he isn't a good player, but it might mean his in game impact is a bit overstated (and Capela's understated).

Also, I think it's important to use more than one plus/minus metric like I did. Giannis graded out higher in RPM and LEBRON. That doesn't mean those ones are better, but they might have a better read on Giannis vs. VanVleet. RAPTOR is likely better for a bunch of other dudes. Average them out and you probably have something close to the right answer. But the point of the exercise was to demonstrate that VanVleet is clearly adding value that his box score isn't capturing whereas Lavine's box score is likely over-representing his value to a significant degree. Have to look at all the evidence.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#258 » by everdiso » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:03 pm

;ab_channel=TooMuchHoops

;ab_channel=AlwaysHoops
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#259 » by Danny1616 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:23 pm

everdiso wrote:It'll be classic NBA to see the Raps be the highest ranked team without any all-star representation.


Fred should make it but last few years have been pretty fair to the Raptors with all-star representation.

Kyle and Demar made it together from 2016-2018, Lowry and Kawhi made it in 2019, and Lowry and Pascal made it in 2020.

The only real snub the Raptors had was Joe Johnson getting the nod over Lowry in 2014.
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Re: Is Fred VanVleet an all star? 

Post#260 » by phanman » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:26 pm

Considering voting probably concluded prior to our team playing much better, he probably won't be announced tonight. Honestly it's going to work out for the best because it gives Freddy another thing to add to the big chip on his shoulder and that means we get to the bouncy Lavine in an All Star setting where he'll absolutely shine.

Feels odd to potentially not getting an All Star Rep, but that's the territory your in when your one of the most disappointing teams to start the season.

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