Is Fred VanVleet an all star?

[Woodsanity]

In the trash east why not?

[Up-And-Coming]

Probably gets left off unless there’s an injury or no-show

[VanWest82]

Bulls are 16 points per 100 better on defense when when Lavine sits. His on court DRTG is in the 112-115 range every single year. He’s a gifted scorer but I’m not sure he’s exactly playing the right way or making anyone better, and calling him a DH is being kind.

If you swapped him and Fred I bet Raps lose more games with the loss of their defensive leader and Bulls win more when Fred helps change their organizational culture.

Lavine will make all star over Fred because that game is a show case but I’d rather have Fred if I’m trying to win.

[HoopsterJones]

Not this year. His FG% and TS% aren’t close to other guards vying for All Star nods in the EC.

[sllubwoc]

Bulls are 16 points per 100 better on defense when when Lavine sits. His on court DRTG is in the 112-115 range every single year. He’s a gifted scorer but I’m not sure he’s exactly playing the right way or making anyone better, and calling him a DH is being kind.

If you swapped him and Fred I bet Raps lose more games with the loss of their defensive leader and Bulls win more when Fred helps change their organizational culture.

Lavine will make all star over Fred because that game is a show case but I’d rather have Fred if I’m trying to win.

So wrong.That's okay though.

[Johnny Bball]

Bulls are 16 points per 100 better on defense when when Lavine sits. His on court DRTG is in the 112-115 range every single year. He’s a gifted scorer but I’m not sure he’s exactly playing the right way or making anyone better, and calling him a DH is being kind.

If you swapped him and Fred I bet Raps lose more games with the loss of their defensive leader and Bulls win more when Fred helps change their organizational culture.

Lavine will make all star over Fred because that game is a show case but I’d rather have Fred if I’m trying to win.

So wrong.That's okay though.

Such detail, such thought.

[Vampirate]

FVV is a great defender no question but in today's NBA - a hyper efficient, huge volume scorer is more valuable than a great defending guard. It's a sad state of affairs.

I like FVV, he's exactly who the Clippers/Bulls/Bucks/Sixers all should target and throw real money at.

Considering track records though i'd take FVV over Lavine going into next year as Lavine is having a career year in an abnormal year. I'm not sure what one can take away from an empty stadium season.

FVV is just being FVV as his numbers are pretty consistent to what he's done in the past.

I'd even argue that FVV is having a better year than Brogdon if you consider PPS, Blocks and steals, though Brogdon due to his size has the better rebounding numbers and better shooting percentages overall. (though I don't think either has a big case over the other).

Track record says the older FVV has gone from a average guard to a good guard to a great guard while the younger Lavine has gone from a good guard to a borderline superstar type play

Its surprising to say but Lavine is at the point where it doesn't matter who lines up against him and its Just a different level of ascension and play. No knock against Fred but Lavines in the tier above him right now


Harden
Kyrie
Beal
Brown
Lavine
Simmons

Trae
Brogdon
FVV
Rozier

I'm not knocking what Lavine has done this year, he's clearly having a better year than FVV. I'm saying based on their track records i'm doubtful that Lavine is going to keep up this years type of production when the arena's are full again.

Or more accurately, this year to me looks like an outlier type of year for Lavine while FVV is pretty much putting up the same type of numbers as previous but on a higher volume.

I'm just skeptical, based on the past, that Lavine is this good of a scorer (this season compared to previous seasons) when looking at next season and onwards.

[everdiso]

Fred ranks 9th in the NBA in raptor, 1ith in RLM.

His team is 3rd in the East in both +/- and net rating, and will likely have the record to match that soon.

He's proven himself as a stud player for an elite team for years.

He's a clearcut all star.

[sllubwoc]

Bulls are 16 points per 100 better on defense when when Lavine sits. His on court DRTG is in the 112-115 range every single year. He’s a gifted scorer but I’m not sure he’s exactly playing the right way or making anyone better, and calling him a DH is being kind.

If you swapped him and Fred I bet Raps lose more games with the loss of their defensive leader and Bulls win more when Fred helps change their organizational culture.

Lavine will make all star over Fred because that game is a show case but I’d rather have Fred if I’m trying to win.

So wrong.That's okay though.

Such detail, such thought.

There is absolutely no argument between who deserves it more between the 2.

20 / 4 / 6 / 17.89 per TS% 55.2

29 / 5 / 5 / 23.10 per TS% 64.7

One of them gets doubled if he touches the ball in the 2nd half as well as nobody else on his team is capable of getting there own buckets.

Like I said...there is no argument.

Also the "the bulls are better without Zach on the floor" is so lazy it's sad. The Bulls starting offensive lineup over most of this season has been.

Coby White
Lavine
Garrett Temple
Pat Williams
Thad Young

When you play a majority of your minutes with sub par talent your team tends to not score as much as the opponent. All that said late in games he has more points in the 4th quarter then any player in the NBA.

I hope this helps. Either way. Think whatever you want but Zach Lavine is a better basketball player then Van. Cheers.

[Johnny Bball]

So wrong.That's okay though.

Such detail, such thought.

There is absolutely no argument between who deserves it more between the 2.

20 / 4 / 6 / 17.89 per TS% 55.2

29 / 5 / 5 / 23.10 per TS% 64.7

One of them gets doubled if he touches the ball in the 2nd half as well as nobody else on his team is capable of getting there own buckets.

Like I said...there is no argument.

Also the "the bulls are better without Zach on the floor" is so lazy it's sad. The Bulls starting offensive lineup over most of this season has been.

Coby White
Lavine
Garrett Temple
Pat Williams
Thad Young

When you play a majority of your minutes with sub par talent your team tends to not score as much as the opponent. All that said late in games he has more points in the 4th quarter then any player in the NBA.

Lmao. The guys post is about defense and you don't even touch on it without even a hint of an argument. So, wrong, but it's ok.

[Vampirate]

Considering track records though i'd take FVV over Lavine going into next year as Lavine is having a career year in an abnormal year. I'm not sure what one can take away from an empty stadium season.

FVV is just being FVV as his numbers are pretty consistent to what he's done in the past.

I'd even argue that FVV is having a better year than Brogdon if you consider PPS, Blocks and steals, though Brogdon due to his size has the better rebounding numbers and better shooting percentages overall. (though I don't think either has a big case over the other).

Track record says the older FVV has gone from a average guard to a good guard to a great guard while the younger Lavine has gone from a good guard to a borderline superstar type play

Its surprising to say but Lavine is at the point where it doesn't matter who lines up against him and its Just a different level of ascension and play. No knock against Fred but Lavines in the tier above him right now


Harden
Kyrie
Beal
Brown
Lavine
Simmons

Trae
Brogdon
FVV
Rozier

I'm not knocking what Lavine has done this year, he's clearly having a better year than FVV. I'm saying based on their track records i'm doubtful that Lavine is going to keep up this years type of production when the arena's are full again.

Or more accurately, this year to me looks like an outlier type of year for Lavine while FVV is pretty much putting up the same type of numbers as previous but on a higher volume.

I'm just skeptical, based on the past, that Lavine is this good of a scorer (this season compared to previous seasons) when looking at next season and onwards.

Then again, Siakam just one day decided he was tired of being a role player and became an all star so jumps like that can happen.

[Raps in 4]

Put up a poll

He has some raw numbers but numbers with a sub 20 PER is generally not an all-star and he's at 17 (15 is an average NBA player, he's ranked 59th in PER right now) unless you're on the team with the best record or second best in the NBA.

PER is a junk stat. He's #18 in RPM this year (+3.87) and #17 in RAPM (+2.82).

[VanWest82]

I hope this helps. Either way. Think whatever you want but Zach Lavine is a better basketball player then Van. Cheers.

How does that analysis account for Lavine being arguably the worst help defender in the NBA? It might actually be impossible to play NBA level defense with him in the game due to his lack of awareness and effort on that end. He seems to be a little better on ball the last couple years though so maybe there's hope.

[sllubwoc]

Such detail, such thought.

There is absolutely no argument between who deserves it more between the 2.

20 / 4 / 6 / 17.89 per TS% 55.2

29 / 5 / 5 / 23.10 per TS% 64.7

One of them gets doubled if he touches the ball in the 2nd half as well as nobody else on his team is capable of getting there own buckets.

Like I said...there is no argument.

Also the "the bulls are better without Zach on the floor" is so lazy it's sad. The Bulls starting offensive lineup over most of this season has been.

Coby White
Lavine
Garrett Temple
Pat Williams
Thad Young

When you play a majority of your minutes with sub par talent your team tends to not score as much as the opponent. All that said late in games he has more points in the 4th quarter then any player in the NBA.

Lmao. The guys post is about defense and you don't even touch on it without even a hint of an argument. So, wrong, but it's ok.

There is no argument. I don't need to argue anything at all. Zach argues for me when he plays in games at night. He is a better basketball player then Van. Van plays on a much better team and has like 2 more wins then the injure riddled Bulls team. Great work Van. Zach Lavine will make the all star game before Van. End of argument. There saved everyone a bunch of time.

[BIGJ1ER]

So wrong.That's okay though.

Such detail, such thought.

There is absolutely no argument between who deserves it more between the 2.

20 / 4 / 6 / 17.89 per TS% 55.2

29 / 5 / 5 / 23.10 per TS% 64.7

One of them gets doubled if he touches the ball in the 2nd half as well as nobody else on his team is capable of getting there own buckets.

Like I said...there is no argument.

Also the "the bulls are better without Zach on the floor" is so lazy it's sad. The Bulls starting offensive lineup over most of this season has been.

Coby White
Lavine
Garrett Temple
Pat Williams
Thad Young

When you play a majority of your minutes with sub par talent your team tends to not score as much as the opponent. All that said late in games he has more points in the 4th quarter then any player in the NBA.

I hope this helps. Either way. Think whatever you want but Zach Lavine is a better basketball player then Van. Cheers.

You do realise on/off doesn't care about how bad your team is, it just factors in how your team performs with you on/off the court. If your team is that horrible, you should have even more opportunity to post a higher on/off split, like Westbrook did in 17 or Duncan did in 03, James did in his cavs stints etc etc.

The real counter to raw/on off and net rtg data is using lineup data to link correlations, but I don't think you've realised that.

[Reeko]

Not this year. His FG% and TS% aren’t close to other guards vying for All Star nods in the EC.

Really? We're measuring All Stars by their FG% and TS%?

[VanWest82]

Lmao. The guys post is about defense and you don't even touch on it without even a hint of an argument. So, wrong, but it's ok.

There is no argument. I don't need to argue anything at all. Zach argues for me when he plays in games at night. He is a better basketball player then Van. Van plays on a much better team and has like 2 more wins then the injure riddled Bulls team. Great work Van. Zach Lavine will make the all star game before Van. End of argument. There saved everyone a bunch of time.

FVV on court NRTG: +5.3
FVV off court NRTG: -4.7 (lowest on team)

Lavine on court NRTG: -3.3
Lavine off court NRTG: +4.4 (2nd highest on team)

It really seems like Raptors are good when Fred plays and suck when he sits, and Bulls are good when Zach sits and suck when he plays. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story but when you dig deeper you get some better clues.

Raptors ORTG no Fred: 103.9 (lowest on team)
Bulls DRTG no Lavine: 99.0 (lowest on team)

Given how involved these guys are it's probably safe to believe those telling off court numbers. Put another way, there's something VanVleet is bringing to Raptors offense that belies his offensive stats, and there's something Lavine isn't bringing to Bulls defense that's killing them when he's on the court, and saving them when he's not.

[sllubwoc]

Such detail, such thought.

There is absolutely no argument between who deserves it more between the 2.

20 / 4 / 6 / 17.89 per TS% 55.2

29 / 5 / 5 / 23.10 per TS% 64.7

One of them gets doubled if he touches the ball in the 2nd half as well as nobody else on his team is capable of getting there own buckets.

Like I said...there is no argument.

Also the "the bulls are better without Zach on the floor" is so lazy it's sad. The Bulls starting offensive lineup over most of this season has been.

Coby White
Lavine
Garrett Temple
Pat Williams
Thad Young

When you play a majority of your minutes with sub par talent your team tends to not score as much as the opponent. All that said late in games he has more points in the 4th quarter then any player in the NBA.

I hope this helps. Either way. Think whatever you want but Zach Lavine is a better basketball player then Van. Cheers.

You do realise on/off doesn't care about how bad your team is, it just factors in how your team performs with you on/off the court. If your team is that horrible, you should have even more opportunity to post a higher on/off split, like Westbrook did in 17 or Duncan did in 03, James did in his cavs stints etc etc.

The real counter to raw/on off and net rtg data is using lineup data to link correlations, but I don't think you've realised that.

Nice. All fine and dandy. Zach Lavine will make the all star game before Van does. Someone who is as smart as you at stats that don't really matter at all should even realize that. Be on the right side of history with me.

[HoopsterJones]

Not this year. His FG% and TS% aren’t close to other guards vying for All Star nods in the EC.

Really? We're measuring All Stars by their FG% and TS%?

Well when you compare 40.8% and 55% to 51.8% and 64.7% and scoring almost 29 PPG what do you think?

[sllubwoc]

Lmao. The guys post is about defense and you don't even touch on it without even a hint of an argument. So, wrong, but it's ok.

There is no argument. I don't need to argue anything at all. Zach argues for me when he plays in games at night. He is a better basketball player then Van. Van plays on a much better team and has like 2 more wins then the injure riddled Bulls team. Great work Van. Zach Lavine will make the all star game before Van. End of argument. There saved everyone a bunch of time.

FVV on court NRTG: +5.3
FVV off court NRTG: -4.7 (lowest on team)

Lavine on court NRTG: -3.3
Lavine off court NRTG: +4.4 (2nd highest on team)

It really seems like Raptors are good when Fred plays and suck when he sits, and Bulls are good when Zach sits and suck when he plays. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story but when you dig deeper you get some better clues.

Raptors ORTG no Fred: 103.9 (lowest on team)
Bulls DRTG no Lavine: 99.0 (lowest on team)

Given how involved these guys are it's probably safe to believe those telling off court numbers. Put another way, there's something VanVleet is bringing to Raptors offense that belies his offensive stats, and there's something Lavine isn't bringing to Bulls defense that's killing them when he's on the court, and saving them when he's not.

Your stats indicate that the Bulls would be better off releasing Zach Lavine. Any stat that suggests that is broken and I have no interest in listening to it.....at all. Zach Lavines team has 1 more loss then Van's team and Van's team is MUCH MUCH MUCH more talented. That is a real stat.