The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#101 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:05 am

Kurtz wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.





PER 31.3 for one and 31.4 for the other. Hey, if we're going in that direction, how about mentioning the stat that resides right next to PER - Win Shares? Joker 11.2, Embiid 6.4. Not in the same universe.
I don't think I have to explain to you why counting stats are terrible in general. Jokic has high win shares because of assists. That's it. There's your entire bias in counting stats like win shares. Even with the heavy assists bias Embiid is still 2nd in WS/48 which isn't biased towards players who have played more.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#102 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:12 am

dygaction wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


Embiid is not a better scorer, but a ref darling by getting 6 more pts a game from the free throw line.
Embiid is a slightly better defensive rebounder @11.2rpg vs. Jokic's 10.9rpg, but Jokic is a better offensive rebounder with 2.8orb vs. Embiid's 2.2orb.
Jokic is a more efficient scorer, MUCH better passer and WAY healthier. Glad Jokic did not have to go out 18 games to test what his team would be without him by playing all 50 games. Again, if Embiid did not get hurt, and could maintain his production, it would be still debatable though his chance would be higher. but now? better pray he will be healthy next season.
A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#103 » by Dupp » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:16 am

[list=][/list]
HardenToSixers wrote:
Woodsanity wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.

Yea Embiid is Hakeem on defense thats why the Sixers barely dropped off defensively with him out. :lol:

Btw Ben Simmons>Embiid defensively and he is a wing. True Sixers fans would probably agree but maybe not Embiid stans. :D

Watch basketball



Been watching, Embiids never there :thinking:
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#104 » by dygaction » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:20 am

Misteclipse wrote:
dygaction wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


Embiid is not a better scorer, but a ref darling by getting 6 more pts a game from the free throw line.
Embiid is a slightly better defensive rebounder @11.2rpg vs. Jokic's 10.9rpg, but Jokic is a better offensive rebounder with 2.8orb vs. Embiid's 2.2orb.
Jokic is a more efficient scorer, MUCH better passer and WAY healthier. Glad Jokic did not have to go out 18 games to test what his team would be without him by playing all 50 games. Again, if Embiid did not get hurt, and could maintain his production, it would be still debatable though his chance would be higher. but now? better pray he will be healthy next season.
A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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It is Embiid stans like you to list those :lol: Anyways, case closed and welcome Embiid next year.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#105 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:22 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Philly played us 2x, and the Lakers without LeBron, I wouldn't look too deeply into what they did without Embiid, they lost when they played good teams and the defense was bad in those games. They are worse defensively over the course of the season when he's out of the game. We're not comparing Embiid to his own previous defensive standards, we're comparing him to Jokic, and if you're going by on/off then how is this even a discusssion? Opponents have a 115.1 ORTG when Jokic is on the court and 108.7 when he's off. Trying to minimize the gap between Embiid and Jokic on defense is really the only way anyone can say Jokic is better or more worthy of being MVP. They are both elite offensive players, one if also elite on defense. That is why this thread is full of people just discrediting defense, it's obvious.


The defensive difference for Embiid on/off is relatively miniscule this season, hardly worth mentioning. I agree that Embiid is clearly better defensively than Jokic, but you are attempting to minimize Jokic's offensive advantage by merely stating that they're both elite. Yes - they are both elite at getting baskets, but one guy is the greatest passing NBA center of all time and the other is averaging as many turnovers as assists. Jokic is far more valuable on offense.


Here's the thing, if you're using on/off like this, I don't understand where your argument is coming from that Jokic is far more valuable on offense, the Sixers have a 120.6 ORTG when Embiid is on the court and 108 when he's off. They are worse on defense without him even if it's small, they don't get better defensively when he's off the court like the Nuggets do when Jokic is off. You can't have it both ways, you can't use on/off like this to justify one position, even though on/off paints a completely different picture. The Sixers offense is ugly when Embiid is off the floor, he's valuable on that side of the floor in a different way. Regardless of what the on/off says, I don't think Embiid is as good of an offensive player as Jokic. No, but the gap is much closer there than the chasm that exists on defense, they aren't even in the same ballpark on defense.
Exactly. You can't use on/off to try and minimize Embiid's defense while trying to convince me that Jokic's offense vs Embiid's is somehow a bigger gap than the gap between their defense. The data doesn't support it. Those same on/off stats he keeps trying to use actually kill his argument and show that Embiid's impact on Philly's offense is actually quite comparable to Jokic's impact on Denver's offense.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#106 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:28 am

Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
The defensive difference for Embiid on/off is relatively miniscule this season, hardly worth mentioning. I agree that Embiid is clearly better defensively than Jokic, but you are attempting to minimize Jokic's offensive advantage by merely stating that they're both elite. Yes - they are both elite at getting baskets, but one guy is the greatest passing NBA center of all time and the other is averaging as many turnovers as assists. Jokic is far more valuable on offense.


Here's the thing, if you're using on/off like this, I don't understand where your argument is coming from that Jokic is far more valuable on offense, the Sixers have a 120.6 ORTG when Embiid is on the court and 108 when he's off. They are worse on defense without him even if it's small, they don't get better defensively when he's off the court like the Nuggets do when Jokic is off. You can't have it both ways, you can't use on/off like this to justify one position, even though on/off paints a completely different picture. The Sixers offense is ugly when Embiid is off the floor, he's valuable on that side of the floor in a different way. Regardless of what the on/off says, I don't think Embiid is as good of an offensive player as Jokic. No, but the gap is much closer there than the chasm that exists on defense, they aren't even in the same ballpark on defense.


I didn't claim that Embiid doesn't help Philly offensively - clearly he's huge for them on that end. Not as big as Jokic, but big. My point was about defense - Embiid has shifted his focus from defense to offense this year, and you can see it in the data.

So when we're talking defensive "chasm" - that just doesn't exist between the two this year. If Embiid played as well defensively as in the past - sure, but this year, while the gap is real, it's hardly a chasm. And as has been mentioned, Embiid has had the benefit of being surrounded by strong defenders and backed up by a strong defensive C, whereas Jokic had no defensive players around him until the Gordon trade.

So indeed, we have Jokic, a superior overall offensive player, vs Embiid a superior defender. Which one is more valuable is subjective, although the modern game seems to value offense a lot more. Had they both played a similar amount of games, I'd have no issue with team record being the tiebreaker. But Embiid's missed games make this an easy call.
I don't think you understand how data works. The gap is smaller because Philly actually has a competent backup C for maybe the first time in Embiid's career. The gap was so massive in the past because that's what happens when you're trotting out the Mike Muscala and Amir Johnsons of the world as your backup C. The Sixers have the #2 defense in the league currently. That's not all because of Embiid obviously but he certainly is a huge reason for that. They obviously wouldn't be #2 or anywhere near that with Jokic at C

Not to mention how inaccurate saying the modern game favors offense more is. A team outside the top 10 in defense hasn't won a ring in 20 years since the 01 Lakers. How exactly is offense favored again? The Lakers literally just won a ring last year with a mediocre offense and elite defense.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#107 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:41 am

Veselyfan wrote:Nikola Jokic is currently leading the NBA in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP.

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Everybody talking about Jokic bad defense, can you explain this ? He is also in TOP 10 in steals per game.
Read on Twitter


Jokic is the MVP, and its not even close.
It's pretty easy to explain actually. Counting stats. Jokic has the best counting stats in the league. That's great for him, but unfortunately doesn't excuse his almost equally poor defense in an NBA where teams that don't play defense don't win championships. His team having the 4th worst defense in the league while allowing the worst FG% in the paint with him on the floor won't get it done when it matters, unfortunately for Nuggets fans.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#108 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:48 am

dygaction wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:
dygaction wrote:
Embiid is not a better scorer, but a ref darling by getting 6 more pts a game from the free throw line.
Embiid is a slightly better defensive rebounder @11.2rpg vs. Jokic's 10.9rpg, but Jokic is a better offensive rebounder with 2.8orb vs. Embiid's 2.2orb.
Jokic is a more efficient scorer, MUCH better passer and WAY healthier. Glad Jokic did not have to go out 18 games to test what his team would be without him by playing all 50 games. Again, if Embiid did not get hurt, and could maintain his production, it would be still debatable though his chance would be higher. but now? better pray he will be healthy next season.
A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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It is Embiid stans like you to list those Anyways, case closed and welcome Embiid next year.
I'm a Sixers fan. I could give 2 **** if Embiid wins MVP personally. It's a meaningless award. Ask Bucks fans. I'd rather see Ben win DPOY and care more about us actually doing something in the playoffs for once. Thankfully we've actually fixed our defense to where it should be since defense has won championships for 20 years now. As for the rest of that drivel, I don't have to be biased towards a certain side of the floor because my superstar actually does both at an elite level. Much more pleasing on my eyes to watch too.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#109 » by dygaction » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:55 am

Misteclipse wrote:
dygaction wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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It is Embiid stans like you to list those Anyways, case closed and welcome Embiid next year.
I'm a Sixers fan. I could give 2 **** if Embiid wins MVP personally. It's a meaningless award. Ask Bucks fans. I'd rather see Ben win DPOY and care more about us actually doing something in the playoffs for once. Thankfully we've actually fixed our defense to where it should be since defense has won championships for 20 years now. As for the rest of that drivel, I don't have to be biased towards a certain side of the floor because my superstar actually does both at an elite level. Much more pleasing on my eyes to watch too.

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Then don't be mad or name calling others Jokic stan. As a Doncic stan, I feel offended :lol: Oh, and I totally disagree MVP is meaningless. It is the passport to be in the discussion of all time greats.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#110 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:04 am

dygaction wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:
dygaction wrote:
It is Embiid stans like you to list those Anyways, case closed and welcome Embiid next year.
I'm a Sixers fan. I could give 2 **** if Embiid wins MVP personally. It's a meaningless award. Ask Bucks fans. I'd rather see Ben win DPOY and care more about us actually doing something in the playoffs for once. Thankfully we've actually fixed our defense to where it should be since defense has won championships for 20 years now. As for the rest of that drivel, I don't have to be biased towards a certain side of the floor because my superstar actually does both at an elite level. Much more pleasing on my eyes to watch too.

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Then don't be mad or name calling others Jokic stan. As a Doncic stan, I feel offended Oh, and I totally disagree MVP is meaningless. It is the passport to be in the discussion of all time greats.
Would you prefer Euro stan instead? Slavic stan? Balkan stan?

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#111 » by eathb_au » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:11 am

Misteclipse wrote:
Veselyfan wrote:Nikola Jokic is currently leading the NBA in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP.

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Everybody talking about Jokic bad defense, can you explain this ? He is also in TOP 10 in steals per game.
Read on Twitter


Jokic is the MVP, and its not even close.
It's pretty easy to explain actually. Counting stats. Jokic has the best counting stats in the league. That's great for him, but unfortunately doesn't excuse his almost equally poor defense in an NBA where teams that don't play defense don't win championships. His team having the 4th worst defense in the league while allowing the worst FG% in the paint with him on the floor won't get it done when it matters, unfortunately for Nuggets fans.

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That's to do with personnel, the Nuggets are full of crap defenders.

Fun fact, the Nuggets have played at the #1 defensive efficiency since acquiring Aaron Gordon.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#112 » by eathb_au » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:13 am

Tobias Harris would be the scoring champion and Ben Simmons would average 20+ PPG with Jokic setting them up. I mean look at what he's done with lesser talents in Gordon and Porter Jr
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#113 » by Blomberg » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:38 am

No race this year. It's Jokic and it's not even close.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#114 » by psimanic1 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:48 am

People saying Embiid is better scorer because of 3ppg more, and using TS% when Embiid has like 6 more FTs per game.... 3ppg more on 6FTs more doesnt help Embiid actually..
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#115 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:58 am

eathb_au wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:
Veselyfan wrote:Nikola Jokic is currently leading the NBA in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP.

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Everybody talking about Jokic bad defense, can you explain this ? He is also in TOP 10 in steals per game.
Read on Twitter


Jokic is the MVP, and its not even close.
It's pretty easy to explain actually. Counting stats. Jokic has the best counting stats in the league. That's great for him, but unfortunately doesn't excuse his almost equally poor defense in an NBA where teams that don't play defense don't win championships. His team having the 4th worst defense in the league while allowing the worst FG% in the paint with him on the floor won't get it done when it matters, unfortunately for Nuggets fans.

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That's to do with personnel, the Nuggets are full of crap defenders.

Fun fact, the Nuggets have played at the #1 defensive efficiency since acquiring Aaron Gordon.
They're full of crap defenders yet somehow have the 3rd best defense in the league when Jokic is on the bench? Interesting. About as interesting as Jokic having nothing to do with Denver's league worst FG% given up in the paint either.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#116 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:05 am

psimanic1 wrote:People saying Embiid is better scorer because of 3ppg more, and using TS% when Embiid has like 6 more FTs per game.... 3ppg more on 6FTs more doesnt help Embiid actually..
That also completely disregards the fact that Embiid does it despite facing much more help defense and double teams than Jokic. And also completely disregards the fact that Embiid actually exerts energy on defense every game while Jokic takes a nap on defense allowing the NBA worst FG% in the paint. Jokic should be more efficient. Yet he's not.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#117 » by The-Power » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:11 am

Capn'O wrote:The center position is ALIVE!!!!!

the power forward position, not so much

Giannis, AD, Zion, KD this year? The first two would arguably be better as Centers for their teams but they are still PFs (otherwise we could include someone like LeBron in the list of PFs).
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#118 » by Johnny Firpo » Thu Apr 8, 2021 10:27 am

Misteclipse wrote:They're full of crap defenders yet somehow have the 3rd best defense in the league when Jokic is on the bench? Interesting. About as interesting as Jokic having nothing to do with Denver's league worst FG% given up in the paint either.


Can we check these stats for the last 20 games or so? I tell you why. I have watched basically all Nuggets games, and what I saw in the first half of the season, or close to it, was abysmal perimeter defense, and they regularly left Jokic on an island on defense, which is obviously the worst position you can put him in. In the last almost two months, everyone seems to play, and defend much better. It started even before Gordon. And if you could check Jokic's rim protection for that period, I think you could even see huge improvements there. Form, team chemistry matters, the Nuggets is a completely different team now than they were in the first half of the season, and they seemingly took another step after acquiring Gordon. I think they are legit contenders now.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#119 » by psimanic1 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 10:38 am

Misteclipse wrote:
psimanic1 wrote:People saying Embiid is better scorer because of 3ppg more, and using TS% when Embiid has like 6 more FTs per game.... 3ppg more on 6FTs more doesnt help Embiid actually..
That also completely disregards the fact that Embiid does it despite facing much more help defense and double teams than Jokic. And also completely disregards the fact that Embiid actually exerts energy on defense every game while Jokic takes a nap on defense allowing the NBA worst FG% in the paint. Jokic should be more efficient. Yet he's not.

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Did you watch any Nuggets game, and how much double teams are around Jokic under the basket?
Also, Nuggets bench has to have better defense because only they know how to do is defense, and they are playing against bench units, for what, 10-15mpg? Its much easier for Embiid to be defensive force when you also have good defenders around him, only good defender in Denver was Harris and he was injured, we will se how it goes with Gordon now, they(starting 5) had 100 dRTG in first 4 or 5 games and 130oRtg
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#120 » by Dupp » Thu Apr 8, 2021 10:43 am

Embiid also is not a better scorer than Jokic. So far his ability to score the ball in the playoffs hasn't even been remotley close to Jokics. Whos done it at an elite level in the post season consistently. Embiid has been relatively bad offensively in the post season.


Now health provided i expect Embiid to take a huge leap offensively this post season. Still, Jokic is way more proven.
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