The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#121 » by FinnTheHuman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 10:56 am

Misteclipse wrote:
dygaction wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


Embiid is not a better scorer, but a ref darling by getting 6 more pts a game from the free throw line.
Embiid is a slightly better defensive rebounder @11.2rpg vs. Jokic's 10.9rpg, but Jokic is a better offensive rebounder with 2.8orb vs. Embiid's 2.2orb.
Jokic is a more efficient scorer, MUCH better passer and WAY healthier. Glad Jokic did not have to go out 18 games to test what his team would be without him by playing all 50 games. Again, if Embiid did not get hurt, and could maintain his production, it would be still debatable though his chance would be higher. but now? better pray he will be healthy next season.
A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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Jokic doesn't even drop to the paint in PnR defense, he stays around the FT line area and defends by trying to stop the attackers from there. Which is why the opponents' FG% around the rim is high, but Embiid is actually attacked around the rim more frequently than Jokic, because he drops all the way to the rim.

And can I get a source about this "4th worst defense with Jokic on the court, 3rd best without"?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#122 » by Hussien Fatal » Thu Apr 8, 2021 11:17 am

I think Joel still has a chance dude is the best player in the league and he has 25 more games to prove it.
They call me Hussien Fatal its a two game table im robbin you **** cradle wit a knife in your navel....
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#123 » by The Rebel » Thu Apr 8, 2021 11:24 am

Misteclipse wrote:
eathb_au wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:It's pretty easy to explain actually. Counting stats. Jokic has the best counting stats in the league. That's great for him, but unfortunately doesn't excuse his almost equally poor defense in an NBA where teams that don't play defense don't win championships. His team having the 4th worst defense in the league while allowing the worst FG% in the paint with him on the floor won't get it done when it matters, unfortunately for Nuggets fans.

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That's to do with personnel, the Nuggets are full of crap defenders.

Fun fact, the Nuggets have played at the #1 defensive efficiency since acquiring Aaron Gordon.
They're full of crap defenders yet somehow have the 3rd best defense in the league when Jokic is on the bench? Interesting. About as interesting as Jokic having nothing to do with Denver's league worst FG% given up in the paint either.

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You have a link to those stats your making up?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#124 » by Janko035 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:26 pm

As always, proof is in the pudding. If this Misterclipse guy was as truly unbothered by the fact that Jokic will outshine Embiid for 3rd straight season as he claims, he wouldn't have wrote some dozen posts within few hours trying his hardest to downplay every single Jokic's strength and overstate his weaknesses (and vice versa for his homeboy).
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#125 » by Kurtz » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:32 pm

Misteclipse wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.





PER 31.3 for one and 31.4 for the other. Hey, if we're going in that direction, how about mentioning the stat that resides right next to PER - Win Shares? Joker 11.2, Embiid 6.4. Not in the same universe.
I don't think I have to explain to you why counting stats are terrible in general. Jokic has high win shares because of assists. That's it. There's your entire bias in counting stats like win shares. Even with the heavy assists bias Embiid is still 2nd in WS/48 which isn't biased towards players who have played more.

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Lol.

Yes, if we just ignore Jokic's assists (and you know, the fact that he's the best playmaking C in the modern history of the NBA) then the comparison is more even. Brilliant argument.

You threw out a lot of doozies this morning, but that one takes the cake.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#126 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:49 pm

Yes, if we just ignore Jokic's assists (and you know, the fact that he's the best playmaking C in the modern history of the NBA) then the comparison is more even. Brilliant argument.


He is the best playmaking C ever. And its not that close.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#127 » by HardenToSixers » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:51 pm

Dupp wrote:[list=][/list]
HardenToSixers wrote:
Woodsanity wrote:Yea Embiid is Hakeem on defense thats why the Sixers barely dropped off defensively with him out. :lol:

Btw Ben Simmons>Embiid defensively and he is a wing. True Sixers fans would probably agree but maybe not Embiid stans. :D

Watch basketball



Been watching, Embiids never there :thinking:
Is this a 3 year old take?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#128 » by rzzzzz » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:52 pm

The easiest way to judge Jokic vs Embiid is to....watch Jokic vs Embiid. They matched up when Denver played Philly this year.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#129 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:56 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
Yes, if we just ignore Jokic's assists (and you know, the fact that he's the best playmaking C in the modern history of the NBA) then the comparison is more even. Brilliant argument.


He is the best playmaking C ever. And its not that close.


He might even be the best playmaker the game of basketball has ever seen frankly. It's tough to compare against perimeter guys with totally different bodies, but Jokic's intelligence on the court is Bird-like.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#130 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:58 pm

rzzzzz wrote:The easiest way to judge Jokic vs Embiid is to....watch Jokic vs Embiid. They matched up when Denver played Philly this year.


Didn't Embiid miss both games?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#131 » by Misteclipse » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:01 pm

FinnTheHuman wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:
dygaction wrote:
Embiid is not a better scorer, but a ref darling by getting 6 more pts a game from the free throw line.
Embiid is a slightly better defensive rebounder @11.2rpg vs. Jokic's 10.9rpg, but Jokic is a better offensive rebounder with 2.8orb vs. Embiid's 2.2orb.
Jokic is a more efficient scorer, MUCH better passer and WAY healthier. Glad Jokic did not have to go out 18 games to test what his team would be without him by playing all 50 games. Again, if Embiid did not get hurt, and could maintain his production, it would be still debatable though his chance would be higher. but now? better pray he will be healthy next season.
A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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Jokic doesn't even drop to the paint in PnR defense, he stays around the FT line area and defends by trying to stop the attackers from there. Which is why the opponents' FG% around the rim is high, but Embiid is actually attacked around the rim more frequently than Jokic, because he drops all the way to the rim.

And can I get a source about this "4th worst defense with Jokic on the court, 3rd best without"?
Embiid defends 2 more shots within 5 feet per game. Hardly a difference. And he allows a lower FG% from every single spot on the floor than Jokic. As for the source, it's Bball reference. 114.7 Drtg with Jokic on the court. 108.3 on the bench.

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#132 » by rzzzzz » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:10 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
rzzzzz wrote:The easiest way to judge Jokic vs Embiid is to....watch Jokic vs Embiid. They matched up when Denver played Philly this year.


Didn't Embiid miss both games?


:D
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#133 » by FinnTheHuman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:13 pm

Misteclipse wrote:
FinnTheHuman wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:A bunch of stats you have there. Funny how none of them mention Denver's 3rd best defense in the NBA with Jokic on the bench and 4th worst defense when Jokic is on the court. They also conveniently seem to be missing the part where Denver is allowing the worst FG% in the paint in the entire NBA. I don't suppose that has anything to do with Jokic being in the paint. This is a very typical Jokic stan argument. Pretend defense doesn't exist and spam counting stats.

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Jokic doesn't even drop to the paint in PnR defense, he stays around the FT line area and defends by trying to stop the attackers from there. Which is why the opponents' FG% around the rim is high, but Embiid is actually attacked around the rim more frequently than Jokic, because he drops all the way to the rim.

And can I get a source about this "4th worst defense with Jokic on the court, 3rd best without"?
Embiid defends 2 more shots within 5 feet per game. Hardly a difference. And he allows a lower FG% from every single spot on the floor than Jokic. As for the source, it's Bball reference. 114.7 Drtg with Jokic on the court. 108.3 on the bench.

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I'm looking at bball reference's defensive stats, and I can't find that info. He's 1st in Defensive winshares on the team, 3rd in Drtg at 109 behind Javale who's played 1 game and Hartenstein who got 10 minutes every other game, and he's 2nd in DBPM only behind Javale, who, I repeat, played only 1 game. So please provide a link that directs me to what you're saying, because all the stats I can find paint Jokic as the best defender on the team :lol:
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#134 » by Dupp » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:26 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
Dupp wrote:[list=][/list]
HardenToSixers wrote:Watch basketball



Been watching, Embiids never there :thinking:
Is this a 3 year old take?



He’s missed more than a third of this current season
Neato wrote:I'd also like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone for being a neato
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#135 » by HardenToSixers » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:34 pm

Dupp wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:
Dupp wrote:[list=][/list]


Been watching, Embiids never there :thinking:
Is this a 3 year old take?



He’s missed more than a third of this current season

He's back on the court after missing a couple weeks and has played a strong majority of four straight seasons. Pretty amazing comeback after most people would've said he would've never played basketball again and pretty amazingly dumb take out of you especially in a covid shortened season. better try next time.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#136 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:19 pm

FinnTheHuman wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:
FinnTheHuman wrote:
Jokic doesn't even drop to the paint in PnR defense, he stays around the FT line area and defends by trying to stop the attackers from there. Which is why the opponents' FG% around the rim is high, but Embiid is actually attacked around the rim more frequently than Jokic, because he drops all the way to the rim.

And can I get a source about this "4th worst defense with Jokic on the court, 3rd best without"?
Embiid defends 2 more shots within 5 feet per game. Hardly a difference. And he allows a lower FG% from every single spot on the floor than Jokic. As for the source, it's Bball reference. 114.7 Drtg with Jokic on the court. 108.3 on the bench.

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I'm looking at bball reference's defensive stats, and I can't find that info. He's 1st in Defensive winshares on the team, 3rd in Drtg at 109 behind Javale who's played 1 game and Hartenstein who got 10 minutes every other game, and he's 2nd in DBPM only behind Javale, who, I repeat, played only 1 game. So please provide a link that directs me to what you're saying, because all the stats I can find paint Jokic as the best defender on the team :lol:



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https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2021/on-off/
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#137 » by FinnTheHuman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:36 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FinnTheHuman wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:Embiid defends 2 more shots within 5 feet per game. Hardly a difference. And he allows a lower FG% from every single spot on the floor than Jokic. As for the source, it's Bball reference. 114.7 Drtg with Jokic on the court. 108.3 on the bench.

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I'm looking at bball reference's defensive stats, and I can't find that info. He's 1st in Defensive winshares on the team, 3rd in Drtg at 109 behind Javale who's played 1 game and Hartenstein who got 10 minutes every other game, and he's 2nd in DBPM only behind Javale, who, I repeat, played only 1 game. So please provide a link that directs me to what you're saying, because all the stats I can find paint Jokic as the best defender on the team :lol:



Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2021/on-off/


Okay, thanks, I see. That stat definitely doesn't make Jokic's defense look good. I'm just confused as hell with all these defensive stats that are sending mixed messages about Jokic's defense. Although, on this sample size, the stat you guys provided feels like the most relevant one when it comes to assessing Joker's defense. Still, his offense more than makes up for it.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#138 » by Alatan » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:43 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FinnTheHuman wrote:
Misteclipse wrote:Embiid defends 2 more shots within 5 feet per game. Hardly a difference. And he allows a lower FG% from every single spot on the floor than Jokic. As for the source, it's Bball reference. 114.7 Drtg with Jokic on the court. 108.3 on the bench.

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I'm looking at bball reference's defensive stats, and I can't find that info. He's 1st in Defensive winshares on the team, 3rd in Drtg at 109 behind Javale who's played 1 game and Hartenstein who got 10 minutes every other game, and he's 2nd in DBPM only behind Javale, who, I repeat, played only 1 game. So please provide a link that directs me to what you're saying, because all the stats I can find paint Jokic as the best defender on the team :lol:



Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2021/on-off/


This can be partially explained by Jokic playing almost always against the opponents starters while he is on the bench against bench players.

Does anyone know what is the average off rating of bench units?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#139 » by slicedbread2 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:43 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:
Yes, if we just ignore Jokic's assists (and you know, the fact that he's the best playmaking C in the modern history of the NBA) then the comparison is more even. Brilliant argument.


He is the best playmaking C ever. And its not that close.


He might even be the best playmaker the game of basketball has ever seen frankly. It's tough to compare against perimeter guys with totally different bodies, but Jokic's intelligence on the court is Bird-like.


Jokic's game reminds me in ways of Arvydas Sabonis minus Sabonis' athleticism that resulted in a backboard being broken and the fact that he was the reason the US dream team was formed. That dude had eyes in the back of his head and could stroke it from anywhere. It always made me wonder if it weren't for politics like the Iron Curtain, how dominant would Sabonis have been with Drexler, Porter and those Trail Blazers teams of the late 80's/early 90's. A true tragedy as by the time he came to Portland, the dude's knees were so shot that he qualified for a handicap parking spot at 7'3 and still looked great post-surgery in the time he played in the NBA.

These are the times where b-ball fans truly should cherish these type of players as they don't come around very often. I hope Embiid and Jokic have long and productive careers so that we can cherish them. I swear if Embiid didn't get hurt, it'd be a dead heat and I could've seen Jokic losing due to the media, but at the same time it could result in him morphing into Olajuwon when Robinson was given the MVP and Hakeem killed him afterwards.

I will be honest: I did place a bet on Jokic to when MVP at 14-1 for $50 and if he wins it's a nice $700 in the pocket otherwise no harm no foul. There's something about his game that's aesthetically pleasing to watch where he can pull Houdini like tricks outta nowhere that make it fun to watch. If he doesn't win it this year, a part of me would love CP3 to finally win a ring as that dude is truly something else.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#140 » by kazyv » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:51 pm

Alatan wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FinnTheHuman wrote:
I'm looking at bball reference's defensive stats, and I can't find that info. He's 1st in Defensive winshares on the team, 3rd in Drtg at 109 behind Javale who's played 1 game and Hartenstein who got 10 minutes every other game, and he's 2nd in DBPM only behind Javale, who, I repeat, played only 1 game. So please provide a link that directs me to what you're saying, because all the stats I can find paint Jokic as the best defender on the team :lol:



Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2021/on-off/


This can be partially explained by Jokic playing almost always against the opponents starters while he is on the bench against bench players.

Does anyone know what is the average off rating of bench units?


just another case of individual unadjusted stats being useless. that's why we have real +/-, which while still not capturing the whole picture, at least can't distort it quite as much as raw stats.

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