The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#41 » by MindState » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:37 pm

NY 567 wrote:They're the front runners right now, but Dame is in the picture, and it looks like Luka is going to make a serious push too. It's far from a 2 man race


No.

Its Jokic, follwed by Embiid and Dame bringing up the rear (his team record just wont be good enough).
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#42 » by bearadonisdna » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:50 pm

This is the year nobody deserves it.
Possibly 72 games not enough to establish a case over others.

My hiatus from this board only reaffirmed my narrative that Jokic was not the mvp. IMO he was not even the mvp of his own division because his team was 7.5 games back at the time.

Right now I think his case gets a little hotter due to the addition of Aaron Gordon and possible seeding resurgence. Otherwise it’s really hard to differentiate an mvp from this proverbial pool of misfits.

Also I do not understand this consensus that gobert is utahs best player. And also a clear indifference of recognizing the best teams best player in the running .
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#43 » by Slim Charless » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:52 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Embiid is most likely going to be a top 5 finalist for defensive player of the year, the gap on defense between them is huge, trying to spin it as anything else is just silly. It's like asking what defensive advantages does Gobert have over Tristan Thompson.


Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.


That's crazy talk. He's not even the best defender on his own team.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#44 » by Woodsanity » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:55 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Embiid is most likely going to be a top 5 finalist for defensive player of the year, the gap on defense between them is huge, trying to spin it as anything else is just silly. It's like asking what defensive advantages does Gobert have over Tristan Thompson.


Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.

Yea Embiid is Hakeem on defense thats why the Sixers barely dropped off defensively with him out. :lol:

Btw Ben Simmons>Embiid defensively and he is a wing. True Sixers fans would probably agree but maybe not Embiid stans. :D
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#45 » by draftnightsuit » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:57 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#46 » by Kurtz » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:01 pm

draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


:lol:


PER 31.3 for one and 31.4 for the other. Hey, if we're going in that direction, how about mentioning the stat that resides right next to PER - Win Shares? Joker 11.2, Embiid 6.4. Not in the same universe.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#47 » by VanWest82 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:05 pm

Jokic is pretty much head and shoulders above everyone now. Embiid did have a case but that's probably done.

One guy who won't win but does have an interesting case is Gobert. He's probably going to be DPOY and he's the best player on the best regular season team. He's also the runaway leader in RAPM. I wouldn't even put him in top 5 but I could see how others might get there.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#48 » by Woodsanity » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:08 pm

draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


He has .1 more PER and marginally more rebounds. This doesn't even count as a tangible advantage especially since he actually had worse numbers than Jokic pre injury. Lets say if somehow he could actually play a full season his numbers would be substantially worse.

As for the 9-9 record, this includes earlier in the season where other Sixers players were hurt or had to deal with covid. Talk about blatantly misleading. The recent record is much better with 7-3 so nice little lie there.

I will give you this. Better defender but thats about it but the Sixers defense was still great without him since he isnt even the best defender on his own team. :)
twix2500 wrote:If Lebron went to NY and Melo to Miami, Melo would have a trophy and Lebron would not.

Tiesto_Lakers wrote:The more I watch basketball, the more I realize that Kobe, in his absolute prime (2006-2008), was a top 2 player of all-time, only second to Jordan.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#49 » by NZB2323 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:10 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:I understand his stats are nowhere near Embiid or Jokic, but how is CP3 not even in the top 3 conversation? We know that team would fall apart without him, if Nash could win the MVP why can't CP3? They went from 10th fastest team in pace last year, to 26th this year, they are playing at his pace, he's controlling them like a master and yet no love for mvp?

Between Embiid and Jokic, I give the edge to Embiid, the gap between them defensively is much bigger than the gap on offense.


50 games of Jokic > 33 games of Embiid

The best ability is availability. Embiid has missed 18 games and Jokic has missed 0.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#50 » by donnieme » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:12 pm

The race is between Jokic and Jokic.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#51 » by NZB2323 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:27 pm

draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


What do you think the Nuggets record would be without Jokic? Jokic doesn't have another all-star on his team and has to play in the West.

Embiid has a higher PER by 0.1, gets 0.3 more rebounds per game, his team has a better win percentage by .046, and scores 3.5 more points per game.

Jokic gets 5.4 more assists per game while averaging less turnovers, has a higher WS by 4.8, a higher BPM by 3.5, a higher VORP by 3.4, and has missed 0 games, as opposed to 18 missed by Embiid.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#52 » by bearadonisdna » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:28 pm

VanWest82 wrote:Jokic is pretty much head and shoulders above everyone now. Embiid did have a case but that's probably done.

One guy who won't win but does have an interesting case is Gobert. He's probably going to be DPOY and he's the best player on the best regular season team. He's also the runaway leader in RAPM. I wouldn't even put him in top 5 but I could see how others might get there.


This is what I don’t understand.
To me Mitchell is clearly the teams best player.
Gobert is more efficient and their defensive anchor but this is a case of analytics run amuck.

Of course gobert will post great efficiency as a center.Treating Mitchell as a red headed step child for whatever reason isn’t enough for me to let some advanced stats tell me a top tier specialist like gobert is the better than Mitchell who is almost a superstar
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#53 » by USWAY » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:30 pm

Jokic is the front runner, he's been amazing all season. Not a slight at Embiid who's been monstrous this season. But after the latest injury the max % of games he can play if he didn't miss another game this year is 75%. Way too low.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#54 » by dygaction » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:36 pm

draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


Embiid is not a better scorer, but a ref darling by getting 6 more pts a game from the free throw line.
Embiid is a slightly better defensive rebounder @11.2rpg vs. Jokic's 10.9rpg, but Jokic is a better offensive rebounder with 2.8orb vs. Embiid's 2.2orb.
Jokic is a more efficient scorer, MUCH better passer and WAY healthier. Glad Jokic did not have to go out 18 games to test what his team would be without him by playing all 50 games. Again, if Embiid did not get hurt, and could maintain his production, it would be still debatable though his chance would be higher. but now? better pray he will be healthy next season.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#55 » by Mickey8 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:36 pm

draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:The only stopping Embiid from winning MVP is games played.

Other than that, he’s the unanimous MVP. There’s really no debate.

Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.

No he's not, actually Embiid is not better in anything than Jokic that much, he has the edge in rebounding but thats not that much of difference and shot blocking , but Jokic is better in steals, way better in facilitating , assisting the ball , and Jokic is the better shooter, Jokic is better in every shooting statistical category . Jokic was leading in PER until recently , before the trade, and Jokic is taking the step back , trying to incorporate Gordon into the offense and he is not forcing on the offense , scoring as much as Embiid , he has periods when he only facilitating , thats the reason why Embiid is averaging more points than Jokic , Jokic could average 30 points or more if he wants to , with his scoring, assisting , shooting averages, there is no doubt that Jokic is superior offensive player to Embiid , Embiid is also protected by the refs and he gets bunch of free throws every game, lots of freebies . Also Sixers were pretty fine with Embiid, being out, there wasn't that great drop off in wins and losses column . Jokic didn't miss the game this season, while Embiid was having lots of rest, being fresher player of two . And stop reading into win columns, if you wont mention how many injuries Denver had, players being out for different reasons all season long, and Denver is only three games behind the Sixers , could surpass them at the end of the season in game wins, also Sixers won bunch of games without Embiid as well.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#56 » by VanWest82 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:40 pm

bearadonisdna wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Jokic is pretty much head and shoulders above everyone now. Embiid did have a case but that's probably done.

One guy who won't win but does have an interesting case is Gobert. He's probably going to be DPOY and he's the best player on the best regular season team. He's also the runaway leader in RAPM. I wouldn't even put him in top 5 but I could see how others might get there.


This is what I don’t understand.
To me Mitchell is clearly the teams best player.
Gobert is more efficient and their defensive anchor but this is a case of analytics run amuck.

Of course gobert will post great efficiency as a center.Treating Mitchell as a red headed step child for whatever reason isn’t enough for me to let some advanced stats tell me a top tier specialist like gobert is the better than Mitchell who is almost a superstar


I like Mitchell but there's a Derozan like quality with him where his teams seem to perform well when he isn't in the game. Jazz are just trashing teams with Mitchell on the bench (+11 per 100) whereas they're actually a losing team minus Rudy (-1.4 per 100) who has one of the best on/off splits in the league. Feels like they get a lot mileage out of Conley/Gobert PnR, but Rudy's case for MVP is really about how crazy his defensive impact is. Again, I wouldn't vote for him but he's definitely driving a lot of winning for them.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#57 » by VDT » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:30 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.

Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.


That's crazy talk. He's not even the best defender on his own team.


Embiid is possibly the best defensive player in the league in a vacuum. Certainly better than Gobert as he is stronger and more athletic without giving up much in length. He is not that however when he has to iso score 33ppg per 36 on the offensive end. I would also take someone like Giannis over Gobert if he didnt have to be a volume scorer.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#58 » by Janko035 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:31 pm

There's no getting around the fact that only once in 65 years has an MVP missed more than 14% of the season, and Embiid has already missed more than 25%. His chances are over.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#59 » by clyde21 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:36 pm

Capn'O wrote:The center position is ALIVE!!!!!

Spoiler:
the power forward position, not so much


the PF position never made sense anyways...it's like hey, let's have a big, but not a big as big as our real big, play 8-12 feet away from the basket at all times

this natural progression where the PF position is essentially just a bigger SF with an actual perimeter skill set makes way more sense.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#60 » by VDT » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:36 pm

Mickey8 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.

No he's not, actually Embiid is not better in anything than Jokic that much, he has the edge in rebounding but thats not that much of difference and shot blocking , but Jokic is better in steals, way better in facilitating , assisting the ball , and Jokic is the better shooter, Jokic is better in every shooting statistical category . Jokic was leading in PER until recently , before the trade, and Jokic is taking the step back , trying to incorporate Gordon into the offense and he is not forcing on the offense , scoring as much as Embiid , he has periods when he only facilitating , thats the reason why Embiid is averaging more points than Jokic , Jokic could average 30 points or more if he wants to , with his scoring, assisting , shooting averages, there is no doubt that Jokic is superior offensive player to Embiid , Embiid is also protected by the refs and he gets bunch of free throws every game, lots of freebies . Also Sixers were pretty fine with Embiid, being out, there wasn't that great drop off in wins and losses column . Jokic didn't miss the game this season, while Embiid was having lots of rest, being fresher player of two . And stop reading into win columns, if you wont mention how many injuries Denver had, players being out for different reasons all season long, and Denver is only three games behind the Sixers , could surpass them at the end of the season in game wins, also Sixers won bunch of games without Embiid as well.



Embiid is at least a tier higher as a scorer as volume counts (ironically they are at exactly the same efficiency right now 64.7% TS). He is a better rebounder (career 20.2 % TRB vs 18.2%) and is the much better defender. Jokic is the considerably better passer. He also tends to miss considerably less games if you want to count that.

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