The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind

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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#61 » by dygaction » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:55 pm

VDT wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.

No he's not, actually Embiid is not better in anything than Jokic that much, he has the edge in rebounding but thats not that much of difference and shot blocking , but Jokic is better in steals, way better in facilitating , assisting the ball , and Jokic is the better shooter, Jokic is better in every shooting statistical category . Jokic was leading in PER until recently , before the trade, and Jokic is taking the step back , trying to incorporate Gordon into the offense and he is not forcing on the offense , scoring as much as Embiid , he has periods when he only facilitating , thats the reason why Embiid is averaging more points than Jokic , Jokic could average 30 points or more if he wants to , with his scoring, assisting , shooting averages, there is no doubt that Jokic is superior offensive player to Embiid , Embiid is also protected by the refs and he gets bunch of free throws every game, lots of freebies . Also Sixers were pretty fine with Embiid, being out, there wasn't that great drop off in wins and losses column . Jokic didn't miss the game this season, while Embiid was having lots of rest, being fresher player of two . And stop reading into win columns, if you wont mention how many injuries Denver had, players being out for different reasons all season long, and Denver is only three games behind the Sixers , could surpass them at the end of the season in game wins, also Sixers won bunch of games without Embiid as well.



Embiid is at least a tier higher as a scorer as volume counts (ironically they are at exactly the same efficiency right now 64.7% TS). He is a better rebounder (career 20.2 % TRB vs 18.2%) and is the much better defender. Jokic is the considerably better passer. He also tends to miss considerably less games if you want to count that.


Volume Jokic is actually slightly higher but Embiid gets WAY more free throw calls.
Heath aside, we know Jokic is a playoff performer, and Embiid's efficiency and numbers drop like a tank in the playoffs, if that means something.
Reg: 24.8/11.4/3.1; 48.6/32.7/80.3 shooting
Playoffs: 22.3/11.5/2.9; 43.7/28.6/78.6 shooting

Jokic:
Reg: 18.1/9.7/5.9; 53.2/35/83.1 shooting
Playoffs: 24.7/11.2/6.9; 51.3/41.6/84.1 shooting
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#62 » by VDT » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:13 pm

dygaction wrote:
VDT wrote:
Mickey8 wrote: No he's not, actually Embiid is not better in anything than Jokic that much, he has the edge in rebounding but thats not that much of difference and shot blocking , but Jokic is better in steals, way better in facilitating , assisting the ball , and Jokic is the better shooter, Jokic is better in every shooting statistical category . Jokic was leading in PER until recently , before the trade, and Jokic is taking the step back , trying to incorporate Gordon into the offense and he is not forcing on the offense , scoring as much as Embiid , he has periods when he only facilitating , thats the reason why Embiid is averaging more points than Jokic , Jokic could average 30 points or more if he wants to , with his scoring, assisting , shooting averages, there is no doubt that Jokic is superior offensive player to Embiid , Embiid is also protected by the refs and he gets bunch of free throws every game, lots of freebies . Also Sixers were pretty fine with Embiid, being out, there wasn't that great drop off in wins and losses column . Jokic didn't miss the game this season, while Embiid was having lots of rest, being fresher player of two . And stop reading into win columns, if you wont mention how many injuries Denver had, players being out for different reasons all season long, and Denver is only three games behind the Sixers , could surpass them at the end of the season in game wins, also Sixers won bunch of games without Embiid as well.



Embiid is at least a tier higher as a scorer as volume counts (ironically they are at exactly the same efficiency right now 64.7% TS). He is a better rebounder (career 20.2 % TRB vs 18.2%) and is the much better defender. Jokic is the considerably better passer. He also tends to miss considerably less games if you want to count that.


Volume Jokic is actually slightly higher but Embiid gets WAY more free throw calls.
Heath aside, we know Jokic is a playoff performer, and Embiid's efficiency and numbers drop like a tank in the playoffs, if that means something.
Reg: 24.8/11.4/3.1; 48.6/32.7/80.3 shooting
Playoffs: 22.3/11.5/2.9; 43.7/28.6/78.6 shooting


Embiid is averaging 3.5 ppg more than Jokic this year. The difference is even higher per 36. Embiid scored 28.7 ppg per 36 in his rookie season, a number that Jokic has never reached. Right now Embiid scores 33.2 ppg per 36.

Embiid's efficiency and scoring are down in the playoffs, but he only had one healthy postseason and that was just 4 games. His rookie playoffs he had to play with a mask and the second year he had knee issues and was ill for 2-3 games against the Raptors.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#63 » by NZB2323 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:16 pm

bearadonisdna wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Jokic is pretty much head and shoulders above everyone now. Embiid did have a case but that's probably done.

One guy who won't win but does have an interesting case is Gobert. He's probably going to be DPOY and he's the best player on the best regular season team. He's also the runaway leader in RAPM. I wouldn't even put him in top 5 but I could see how others might get there.


This is what I don’t understand.
To me Mitchell is clearly the teams best player.
Gobert is more efficient and their defensive anchor but this is a case of analytics run amuck.

Of course gobert will post great efficiency as a center.Treating Mitchell as a red headed step child for whatever reason isn’t enough for me to let some advanced stats tell me a top tier specialist like gobert is the better than Mitchell who is almost a superstar


Gobert anchors the defense and the whole offense is built around Gobert setting picks and the threat of him running to the rim. The Jazz are 3-0 without Mitchell this year, and can score at an elite level when Mitchell isn’t playing. There’s a reason the Jazz out score opponents by more when Gobert is playing without Mitchell than when Mitchell is playing without Gobert. I was trying to find those numbers but have been having some trouble. Could
Someone help me?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#64 » by Raps in 4 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:17 pm

It's Jokic and it's not close.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#65 » by VanWest82 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:20 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Jokic is pretty much head and shoulders above everyone now. Embiid did have a case but that's probably done.

One guy who won't win but does have an interesting case is Gobert. He's probably going to be DPOY and he's the best player on the best regular season team. He's also the runaway leader in RAPM. I wouldn't even put him in top 5 but I could see how others might get there.


This is what I don’t understand.
To me Mitchell is clearly the teams best player.
Gobert is more efficient and their defensive anchor but this is a case of analytics run amuck.

Of course gobert will post great efficiency as a center.Treating Mitchell as a red headed step child for whatever reason isn’t enough for me to let some advanced stats tell me a top tier specialist like gobert is the better than Mitchell who is almost a superstar


Gobert anchors the defense and the whole offense is built around Gobert setting picks and the threat of him running to the rim. The Jazz are 3-0 without Mitchell this year, and can score at an elite level when Mitchell isn’t playing. There’s a reason the Jazz out score opponents by more when Gobert is playing without Mitchell than when Mitchell is playing without Gobert. I was trying to find those numbers but have been having some trouble. Could
Someone help me?


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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#66 » by picko » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:21 pm

Jokic has played 17 more games and 700 more minutes than Embiid. The gap is too large for Embiid to overcome. So I'm not sure why this is even a discussion - let alone a discussion generating considerable back-and-forth.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#67 » by Raps in 4 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:22 pm

bearadonisdna wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Jokic is pretty much head and shoulders above everyone now. Embiid did have a case but that's probably done.

One guy who won't win but does have an interesting case is Gobert. He's probably going to be DPOY and he's the best player on the best regular season team. He's also the runaway leader in RAPM. I wouldn't even put him in top 5 but I could see how others might get there.


This is what I don’t understand.
To me Mitchell is clearly the teams best player.
Gobert is more efficient and their defensive anchor but this is a case of analytics run amuck.

Of course gobert will post great efficiency as a center.Treating Mitchell as a red headed step child for whatever reason isn’t enough for me to let some advanced stats tell me a top tier specialist like gobert is the better than Mitchell who is almost a superstar


Gobert's defence is just as valuable as Mitchell's offence, if not more.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#68 » by Wolfgang630 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:24 pm

The media is doing their thing by trying to push Embiid back into MVP conversation.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#69 » by NZB2323 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:27 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
bearadonisdna wrote:
This is what I don’t understand.
To me Mitchell is clearly the teams best player.
Gobert is more efficient and their defensive anchor but this is a case of analytics run amuck.

Of course gobert will post great efficiency as a center.Treating Mitchell as a red headed step child for whatever reason isn’t enough for me to let some advanced stats tell me a top tier specialist like gobert is the better than Mitchell who is almost a superstar


Gobert anchors the defense and the whole offense is built around Gobert setting picks and the threat of him running to the rim. The Jazz are 3-0 without Mitchell this year, and can score at an elite level when Mitchell isn’t playing. There’s a reason the Jazz out score opponents by more when Gobert is playing without Mitchell than when Mitchell is playing without Gobert. I was trying to find those numbers but have been having some trouble. Could
Someone help me?


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DM w/out RG +1.0


Thank you. What website did you use?
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#70 » by VanWest82 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:32 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
Gobert anchors the defense and the whole offense is built around Gobert setting picks and the threat of him running to the rim. The Jazz are 3-0 without Mitchell this year, and can score at an elite level when Mitchell isn’t playing. There’s a reason the Jazz out score opponents by more when Gobert is playing without Mitchell than when Mitchell is playing without Gobert. I was trying to find those numbers but have been having some trouble. Could
Someone help me?


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RG w/out DM +18.6
DM w/out RG +1.0


Thank you. What website did you use?


https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=1628378&VsPlayerID=203497
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#71 » by phanman » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:51 pm

The Jazz are so good offensively and balanced roster wise that it's a bit of shame that Gobert couldn't boost his 14.6ppg to like 18 to get some serious consideration for MVP. People who think Mitchell is the most important player on this Jazz team are blinded by PPG.

That said Jokic's numbers are unreal and he leads his entire team in a majority of all counting stats, advanced stats and impact numbers.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#72 » by dygaction » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:58 pm

VDT wrote:
dygaction wrote:
VDT wrote:

Embiid is at least a tier higher as a scorer as volume counts (ironically they are at exactly the same efficiency right now 64.7% TS). He is a better rebounder (career 20.2 % TRB vs 18.2%) and is the much better defender. Jokic is the considerably better passer. He also tends to miss considerably less games if you want to count that.


Volume Jokic is actually slightly higher but Embiid gets WAY more free throw calls.
Heath aside, we know Jokic is a playoff performer, and Embiid's efficiency and numbers drop like a tank in the playoffs, if that means something.
Reg: 24.8/11.4/3.1; 48.6/32.7/80.3 shooting
Playoffs: 22.3/11.5/2.9; 43.7/28.6/78.6 shooting


Embiid is averaging 3.5 ppg more than Jokic this year. The difference is even higher per 36. Embiid scored 28.7 ppg per 36 in his rookie season, a number that Jokic has never reached. Right now Embiid scores 33.2 ppg per 36.

Embiid's efficiency and scoring are down in the playoffs, but he only had one healthy postseason and that was just 4 games. His rookie playoffs he had to play with a mask and the second year he had knee issues and was ill for 2-3 games against the Raptors.


Again, that is not due to higher volume but more free throws, so we need to see whether he can gets those calls or goes Harden mode in playoffs. Also a few points higher does not mean much as Jokic is also playing the point role with >8 assists a game.
Without finding any exceptions, here are Jokic's stats in playoffs, and you can expect him to elevate his game in bigger moments. You rarely find players get 5ppg higher with higher efficiency in the playoffs, even for superstars.
Reg: 18.1/9.7/5.9; 53.2/35/83.1 shooting
Playoffs: 24.7/11.2/6.9; 51.3/41.6/84.1 shooting with 33 games played
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#73 » by Slim Charless » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:00 am

VDT wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:Embiid is the most impactful defensive player in the NBA with a skill level that translates well to the playoffs.

There is no single other player you would take when going on a playoff run for maximum defensive impact.


That's crazy talk. He's not even the best defender on his own team.


Embiid is possibly the best defensive player in the league in a vacuum. Certainly better than Gobert as he is stronger and more athletic without giving up much in length. He is not that however when he has to iso score 33ppg per 36 on the offensive end. I would also take someone like Giannis over Gobert if he didnt have to be a volume scorer.


Ya I disagree with most of this. Gobert is the center of Utah's defense and w/o him they would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Embiid is very good but he is helped by the fact that he has the "real" DPOY on his team in Simmons as well as Thybulle, who is very good himself. We got a great look at what Philly is with no Simmons and only Biid last year in the playoffs when Boston swept them-convincingly. If Biid didn't have 2 all defense level perimeter players around him, it'd be a different thing. He doesn't have the ability to switch onto guards as well as this is nothing to say about his health concerns compared to Gorbert or even Giannis
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#74 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:24 am

Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Whopper_Sr wrote:
Nope. The offensive gap is much larger. What defensive advantages does Embiid have over Jokic aside from rim protection? Neither can defend in space.

On offense, Jokic's playmaking and passing blows Embiid out of the water. Embiid's much higher FTr is a plus but how is that going to hold up in the playoffs when refs swallow the whistle?


Embiid is most likely going to be a top 5 finalist for defensive player of the year, the gap on defense between them is huge, trying to spin it as anything else is just silly. It's like asking what defensive advantages does Gobert have over Tristan Thompson.


Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.


Philly played us 2x, and the Lakers without LeBron, I wouldn't look too deeply into what they did without Embiid, they lost when they played good teams and the defense was bad in those games. They are worse defensively over the course of the season when he's out of the game. We're not comparing Embiid to his own previous defensive standards, we're comparing him to Jokic, and if you're going by on/off then how is this even a discusssion? Opponents have a 115.1 ORTG when Jokic is on the court and 108.7 when he's off. Trying to minimize the gap between Embiid and Jokic on defense is really the only way anyone can say Jokic is better or more worthy of being MVP. They are both elite offensive players, one if also elite on defense. That is why this thread is full of people just discrediting defense, it's obvious.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#75 » by VDT » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:29 am

Slim Charless wrote:
VDT wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
That's crazy talk. He's not even the best defender on his own team.


Embiid is possibly the best defensive player in the league in a vacuum. Certainly better than Gobert as he is stronger and more athletic without giving up much in length. He is not that however when he has to iso score 33ppg per 36 on the offensive end. I would also take someone like Giannis over Gobert if he didnt have to be a volume scorer.


Ya I disagree with most of this. Gobert is the center of Utah's defense and w/o him they would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Embiid is very good but he is helped by the fact that he has the "real" DPOY on his team in Simmons as well as Thybulle, who is very good himself. We got a great look at what Philly is with no Simmons and only Biid last year in the playoffs when Boston swept them-convincingly. If Biid didn't have 2 all defense level perimeter players around him, it'd be a different thing. He doesn't have the ability to switch onto guards as well as this is nothing to say about his health concerns compared to Gorbert or even Giannis


My point is that if Embiid had the same offensive responsibilities as Gobert (i.e set screens and roll to the basket) he would likely be a better defender. He is stronger, more athletic and has more of a mean streak.

The Sixers team last year was a trainwreck. Horford and Harris were playing out of position and the perimeter was porous with with players like Milton, Korkmaz etc that were both inexperienced and bad defenders. Against a perimeter oriented team and under these circumstances it is hard for a center to have much of an impact. The defensive schemes in the first couple of games that had Embiid drop back and allow open jumpers in the pnr didnt help either.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#76 » by Inspektor1312 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:35 am

Whopper_Sr wrote: Embiid's much higher FTr is a plus but how is that going to hold up in the playoffs when refs swallow the whistle?


I've seen a lot of talk about this but the evidence suggests otherwise. Joel averages 9FTA per game in his playoff career, and last year he averaged 14FTA, although in only 4 games.

He's a beast and durability is his only weakness. If he didn't get injured it would be a close race between him and Jokic, but in my mind he's out of the race.

Jokic is the frontrunner, with Lillard, Giannis, Luka and CP3 in a tier below.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#77 » by Kurtz » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:37 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Embiid is most likely going to be a top 5 finalist for defensive player of the year, the gap on defense between them is huge, trying to spin it as anything else is just silly. It's like asking what defensive advantages does Gobert have over Tristan Thompson.


Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.


Philly played us 2x, and the Lakers without LeBron, I wouldn't look too deeply into what they did without Embiid, they lost when they played good teams and the defense was bad in those games. They are worse defensively over the course of the season when he's out of the game. We're not comparing Embiid to his own previous defensive standards, we're comparing him to Jokic, and if you're going by on/off then how is this even a discusssion? Opponents have a 115.1 ORTG when Jokic is on the court and 108.7 when he's off. Trying to minimize the gap between Embiid and Jokic on defense is really the only way anyone can say Jokic is better or more worthy of being MVP. They are both elite offensive players, one if also elite on defense. That is why this thread is full of people just discrediting defense, it's obvious.


The defensive difference for Embiid on/off is relatively miniscule this season, hardly worth mentioning. I agree that Embiid is clearly better defensively than Jokic, but you are attempting to minimize Jokic's offensive advantage by merely stating that they're both elite. Yes - they are both elite at getting baskets, but one guy is the greatest passing NBA center of all time and the other is averaging as many turnovers as assists. Jokic is far more valuable on offense.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#78 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:43 am

Kurtz wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Kurtz wrote:
Philly played their best defense of the season when Embiid missed his last 10 games. His on/off-court defensive rating is near neutral this season - he's been coasting on defense this year. If he's a defensive player of the year nominee it will be based on his reputation rather than actual performance this season.


Philly played us 2x, and the Lakers without LeBron, I wouldn't look too deeply into what they did without Embiid, they lost when they played good teams and the defense was bad in those games. They are worse defensively over the course of the season when he's out of the game. We're not comparing Embiid to his own previous defensive standards, we're comparing him to Jokic, and if you're going by on/off then how is this even a discusssion? Opponents have a 115.1 ORTG when Jokic is on the court and 108.7 when he's off. Trying to minimize the gap between Embiid and Jokic on defense is really the only way anyone can say Jokic is better or more worthy of being MVP. They are both elite offensive players, one if also elite on defense. That is why this thread is full of people just discrediting defense, it's obvious.


The defensive difference for Embiid on/off is relatively miniscule this season, hardly worth mentioning. I agree that Embiid is clearly better defensively than Jokic, but you are attempting to minimize Jokic's offensive advantage by merely stating that they're both elite. Yes - they are both elite at getting baskets, but one guy is the greatest passing NBA center of all time and the other is averaging as many turnovers as assists. Jokic is far more valuable on offense.


Here's the thing, if you're using on/off like this, I don't understand where your argument is coming from that Jokic is far more valuable on offense, the Sixers have a 120.6 ORTG when Embiid is on the court and 108 when he's off. They are worse on defense without him even if it's small, they don't get better defensively when he's off the court like the Nuggets do when Jokic is off. You can't have it both ways, you can't use on/off like this to justify one position, even though on/off paints a completely different picture. The Sixers offense is ugly when Embiid is off the floor, he's valuable on that side of the floor in a different way. Regardless of what the on/off says, I don't think Embiid is as good of an offensive player as Jokic. No, but the gap is much closer there than the chasm that exists on defense, they aren't even in the same ballpark on defense.
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#79 » by HardenToSixers » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:49 am

Kurtz wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Ya you know either than the fact Jokic is having the better season and all. But ya Embiid would be the unanimous MVP with no debate for sure.


Embiid is better than Jokic at everything except for assists and shooting %. Embiid is the better scorer, rebounder, defender, has a higher PER, and a better record. Jokic is the better passer and is slightly more efficient.

Sixers are 26-7 with Embiid, 9-9 without him. If there was any question as to who the MVP is, that answers it.

Like I said, no debate.


:lol:


PER 31.3 for one and 31.4 for the other. Hey, if we're going in that direction, how about mentioning the stat that resides right next to PER - Win Shares? Joker 11.2, Embiid 6.4. Not in the same universe.

PER and win shares are both stupid stats that no GM in the world would ever look at to compare two players
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Re: The MVP race is between Jokic and Embiid, Change my mind 

Post#80 » by Slim Charless » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:50 am

VDT wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
VDT wrote:
Embiid is possibly the best defensive player in the league in a vacuum. Certainly better than Gobert as he is stronger and more athletic without giving up much in length. He is not that however when he has to iso score 33ppg per 36 on the offensive end. I would also take someone like Giannis over Gobert if he didnt have to be a volume scorer.


Ya I disagree with most of this. Gobert is the center of Utah's defense and w/o him they would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Embiid is very good but he is helped by the fact that he has the "real" DPOY on his team in Simmons as well as Thybulle, who is very good himself. We got a great look at what Philly is with no Simmons and only Biid last year in the playoffs when Boston swept them-convincingly. If Biid didn't have 2 all defense level perimeter players around him, it'd be a different thing. He doesn't have the ability to switch onto guards as well as this is nothing to say about his health concerns compared to Gorbert or even Giannis


My point is that if Embiid had the same offensive responsibilities as Gobert (i.e set screens and roll to the basket) he would likely be a better defender. He is stronger, more athletic and has more of a mean streak.

The Sixers team last year was a trainwreck. Horford and Harris were playing out of position and the perimeter was porous with with players like Milton, Korkmaz etc that were both inexperienced and bad defenders. Against a perimeter oriented team and under these circumstances it is hard for a center to have much of an impact. The defensive schemes in the first couple of games that had Embiid drop back and allow open jumpers in the pnr didnt help either.


I disagree with him being a better defender at all. Him rolling to the basket has nothing to do his inability to switch to the perimeter and cover as much space.

My point is that having Simmons and Thybulle there allows them to cover up for his weaknesses. Gobert and Simmons have way more responsibility. They're not scoring as much as Embiid, but they still have shown way more ability to be the better defenders regardless.

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