OKC is a disgrace

[MoneyTalks41890]

For all the Raps fans out there - feel free to come down off your high horse now. hehehe

https://theathletic.com/2572979/2021/05/06/koreen-the-play-in-tournament-wasnt-intended-for-a-team-like-these-raptors/

The Raptors, on the other hand, have weighed the pros and cons of competing for the play-in tournament, and they have obviously decided for something considerably less than an all-in push. It is understandable. Lowry, who is still so good that he has had to be liberally rested in their “efforts,” is 35, and will be a free agent in August. The most important players on the team — Siakam, VanVleet and Anunoby — have already had a good chunk of high-leverage experience in their careers. It might be helpful, but it is not necessary to get them more reps. The temptation of extra revenue from home playoff games certainly isn’t overwhelming.

They have concluded that opportunities to evaluate some of the players further down the depth chart, and the better lottery odds that potentially come with that decision, are more valuable than prioritizing amassing as many wins as possible, and maybe playing more than the scheduled 72 games.

What I still don't get is why they didn't trade Lowry if this was the plan. Unless your only offer was Andrew Wiggins, surely you could have gotten something for him before he presumably walks.

They screwed up the negotiation the reports had them trying to play Miami and Philly off each other with a crazy asking price and then both of those teams went elsewhere and Toronto was left holding the bag

[cjmcallist]

We've gone into this before. Tanking for half a season when injury or bad luck strike is fine, if unfortunate. Building a team from the ground up to tank for 3+ years isn't. Raps doing the the former, OKC doing the latter (again, after they already did it to get KD, Westbrook, and Harden).

Besides being factually incorrect this just makes no sense

OKC intentionally sabotaging their team at the start of the season is exactly what happened. Maybe you could accuse Toronto of the same thing if they had traded Kyle Lowry at the start of the season the way OKC did Chris Paul.

No one is saying OKC isn’t tanking.

Your statement is what doesn’t make sense. How do you define bad luck? And for how long does a franchise have to have bad luck before you arbitrarily decide that it’s not okay? That’s why it doesn’t make sense.

In both situations the team evaluates their options and makes a strategic decision to do what they think is best.

[The Rebel]

For all the Raps fans out there - feel free to come down off your high horse now. hehehe

https://theathletic.com/2572979/2021/05/06/koreen-the-play-in-tournament-wasnt-intended-for-a-team-like-these-raptors/

The Raptors, on the other hand, have weighed the pros and cons of competing for the play-in tournament, and they have obviously decided for something considerably less than an all-in push. It is understandable. Lowry, who is still so good that he has had to be liberally rested in their “efforts,” is 35, and will be a free agent in August. The most important players on the team — Siakam, VanVleet and Anunoby — have already had a good chunk of high-leverage experience in their careers. It might be helpful, but it is not necessary to get them more reps. The temptation of extra revenue from home playoff games certainly isn’t overwhelming.

They have concluded that opportunities to evaluate some of the players further down the depth chart, and the better lottery odds that potentially come with that decision, are more valuable than prioritizing amassing as many wins as possible, and maybe playing more than the scheduled 72 games.

We've gone into this before. Tanking for half a season when injury or bad luck strike is fine, if unfortunate. Building a team from the ground up to tank for 3+ years isn't. Raps doing the the former, OKC doing the latter (again, after they already did it to get KD, Westbrook, and Harden).

What are you talking about? The Thunder and the Raptors are doing the exact same thing, the Raptors are just better this year. The Thunder traded Paul because he asked for a trade as soon as he got there, they sent Horford home because obviously Horford did not want to be part of the rebuild. They traded the veterans that were there and wanted traded, the Raptors instead of blowing up their championship team allowed their veterans to become free agents. They are both sitting guys to lose games now, but a few weeks ago there were people openly mocking the Thunder because they did so well early in the season, the Raptors had a lot of early season injuries and coviid issues, but they were never planning to win a championship this year.

Guys do not realize the value guys like Lowry and Paul bring to young teams. They work their asses off, they study the game, and are pros pros, exactly who you want young guys to follow. Fans also do not understand that most franchises want to be seen as taking care of the veterans, especially the guys who helped you win a championship, everybody around the league was watching and waiting for the Raptors to sell out Lowry, and they took care of him. That stuff gets noticed.

The Thunder were basically a year in front of the Raptors, because Paul wanted out the Thunder traded their veterans when they wanted out. Lowry wanted to stay, so here in a few weeks the RAptors will probably be taking bad contracts along with picks for cap space, and focusing on the draft and developing players.

[prophet_of_rage]

LOL at nobody blatantly tanking in the 90s. Look at the Clippers rosters in the late 90s for example, it's high comedy. Their highest paid player was Stojko Vrankovic.

The Clippers didn't tank. Sterling didn't give a ****. He was cheap.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Yeezus_]

For all the Raps fans out there - feel free to come down off your high horse now. hehehe

https://theathletic.com/2572979/2021/05/06/koreen-the-play-in-tournament-wasnt-intended-for-a-team-like-these-raptors/

What I still don't get is why they didn't trade Lowry if this was the plan. Unless your only offer was Andrew Wiggins, surely you could have gotten something for him before he presumably walks.

They screwed up the negotiation the reports had them trying to play Miami and Philly off each other with a crazy asking price and then both of those teams went elsewhere and Toronto was left holding the bag

And both Miami and Philly will regret the decision and come back to us this summer with a sign and trade offer equivalent to atleast what was offered at the deadline. This story isn’t over yet just wait.

[ItsDanger]

Who are these clowns bringing the Raptors into this discussion? Most of our games are competitive, the players are still giving 100%.

[ciueli]

Besides being factually incorrect this just makes no sense

OKC intentionally sabotaging their team at the start of the season is exactly what happened. Maybe you could accuse Toronto of the same thing if they had traded Kyle Lowry at the start of the season the way OKC did Chris Paul.

No one is saying OKC isn’t tanking.

Your statement is what doesn’t make sense. How do you define bad luck? And for how long does a franchise have to have bad luck before you arbitrarily decide that it’s not okay? That’s why it doesn’t make sense.

In both situations the team evaluates their options and makes a strategic decision to do what they think is best.

Yet in OKC's case, the "strategic decision" is gutting the team of anyone past the age of 23 who could contribute to wins, absorbing bad contracts in exchange for draft picks, signing a number of G-League players to fill out the roster, signing no veteran free agents of consequence, all while spending less money on player salaries than any other team in the league.

The problem here is you're trying to equate what OKC did from the start of the season (assemble a team from day 1 to lose as many games as possible in search of high draft picks) with what Toronto is doing now (throwing in the towel after trying to win most of the season due to bad luck and an inability to properly fill one position). Considering that OKC's tank job will certainly last more than just this season, It's extremely disingenuous.

[Shock Defeat]

OKC is not just losing games, they are not even competitive whatsoever. They get blown out by 30 every single game. OKC should be fined.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

What I still don't get is why they didn't trade Lowry if this was the plan. Unless your only offer was Andrew Wiggins, surely you could have gotten something for him before he presumably walks.

They screwed up the negotiation the reports had them trying to play Miami and Philly off each other with a crazy asking price and then both of those teams went elsewhere and Toronto was left holding the bag

And both Miami and Philly will regret the decision and come back to us this summer with a sign and trade offer equivalent to atleast what was offered at the deadline. This story isn’t over yet just wait.

I wouldn't hold out hope for that. A huge chunk of 35yo Lowry's trade value was tied to having him for this season's playoffs. And Miami can likely just sign him outright this offseason if they still want him

[HabsAndDubs]

For all the Raps fans out there - feel free to come down off your high horse now. hehehe

https://theathletic.com/2572979/2021/05/06/koreen-the-play-in-tournament-wasnt-intended-for-a-team-like-these-raptors/

The Raptors, on the other hand, have weighed the pros and cons of competing for the play-in tournament, and they have obviously decided for something considerably less than an all-in push. It is understandable. Lowry, who is still so good that he has had to be liberally rested in their “efforts,” is 35, and will be a free agent in August. The most important players on the team — Siakam, VanVleet and Anunoby — have already had a good chunk of high-leverage experience in their careers. It might be helpful, but it is not necessary to get them more reps. The temptation of extra revenue from home playoff games certainly isn’t overwhelming.

They have concluded that opportunities to evaluate some of the players further down the depth chart, and the better lottery odds that potentially come with that decision, are more valuable than prioritizing amassing as many wins as possible, and maybe playing more than the scheduled 72 games.

What I still don't get is why they didn't trade Lowry if this was the plan. Unless your only offer was Andrew Wiggins, surely you could have gotten something for him before he presumably walks.

I think there are only a few teams Lowry would’ve wanted to go to, and at this point, I think proving to the league that Toronto takes care of their stars and doesn’t try and pawn them for future pieces is more important than whatever they would’ve gotten back.

Convincing a star to move to Canada and pay Ontario taxes still isn’t super easy, but the way Masai does business certainly helps. Toronto probably couldn’t get a good enough offer from Miami or Philly, so decided that it’s better to please your franchise corner stone and hope to maybe get something back from a sign and trade this summer. It’s not like Lowry would’ve gotten Toronto some blue chip can’t miss pieces, so they aren’t losing that much by just keeping him and letting him walk.

[shangrila]

For all the Raps fans out there - feel free to come down off your high horse now. hehehe

https://theathletic.com/2572979/2021/05/06/koreen-the-play-in-tournament-wasnt-intended-for-a-team-like-these-raptors/

What I still don't get is why they didn't trade Lowry if this was the plan. Unless your only offer was Andrew Wiggins, surely you could have gotten something for him before he presumably walks.

I think there are only a few teams Lowry would’ve wanted to go to, and at this point, I think proving to the league that Toronto takes care of their stars and doesn’t try and pawn them for future pieces is more important than whatever they would’ve gotten back.

Convincing a star to move to Canada and pay Ontario taxes still isn’t super easy, but the way Masai does business certainly helps. Toronto probably couldn’t get a good enough offer from Miami or Philly, so decided that it’s better to please your franchise corner stone and hope to maybe get something back from a sign and trade this summer. It’s not like Lowry would’ve gotten Toronto some blue chip can’t miss pieces, so they aren’t losing that much by just keeping him and letting him walk.

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying they should have shipped him to anywhere. But even if deals with Philly or Miami didn't include prospects like Maxey or Herro I still think they would have gotten a decent return for him from either of those teams and should have taken it.

[John Murdoch]

Sure they exiled Horford and randomly rest Dort but Pistons , Magic etc are doin similar . The fact that they waited to trade CP3 told me they actually wanted to get SGA playoff experience . Presti is playing his hand properly

[cjmcallist]

Your statement is what doesn’t make sense. How do you define bad luck? And for how long does a franchise have to have bad luck before you arbitrarily decide that it’s not okay? That’s why it doesn’t make sense.

In both situations the team evaluates their options and makes a strategic decision to do what they think is best.

Yet in OKC's case, the "strategic decision" is gutting the team of anyone past the age of 23 who could contribute to wins, absorbing bad contracts in exchange for draft picks, signing a number of G-League players to fill out the roster, signing no veteran free agents of consequence, all while spending less money on player salaries than any other team in the league.

The problem here is you're trying to equate what OKC did from the start of the season (assemble a team from day 1 to lose as many games as possible in search of high draft picks) with what Toronto is doing now (throwing in the towel after trying to win most of the season due to bad luck and an inability to properly fill one position). Considering that OKC's tank job will certainly last more than just this season, It's extremely disingenuous.

Yes, this is correct. I guess I just don't see any problem with that. I'm open to hearing what the problem is, but I don't see it - and haven't heard a good argument thus far.

I think where I'm not following you is: how do you know how long OKC's tank will last? It seems to me like your assuming something you don't know, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

[1bigfan13]

Obviously completely bottoming out with G-Leaguers, rookies, and fringe NBA players was OKC's plan all along. It's probably why they decided early on not to allow fans at any games this season. I believe they are the only NBA team that didn't allow fans all season. As strange as it may sound, I think they probably didn't feel it would be morally right to charge fans to pay to watch a team that they knew would be historically bad.

[ciueli]

Your statement is what doesn’t make sense. How do you define bad luck? And for how long does a franchise have to have bad luck before you arbitrarily decide that it’s not okay? That’s why it doesn’t make sense.

In both situations the team evaluates their options and makes a strategic decision to do what they think is best.

Yet in OKC's case, the "strategic decision" is gutting the team of anyone past the age of 23 who could contribute to wins, absorbing bad contracts in exchange for draft picks, signing a number of G-League players to fill out the roster, signing no veteran free agents of consequence, all while spending less money on player salaries than any other team in the league.

The problem here is you're trying to equate what OKC did from the start of the season (assemble a team from day 1 to lose as many games as possible in search of high draft picks) with what Toronto is doing now (throwing in the towel after trying to win most of the season due to bad luck and an inability to properly fill one position). Considering that OKC's tank job will certainly last more than just this season, It's extremely disingenuous.

Yes, this is correct. I guess I just don't see any problem with that. I'm open to hearing what the problem is, but I don't see it - and haven't heard a good argument thus far.

I think where I'm not following you is: how do you know how long OKC's tank will last? It seems to me like your assuming something you don't know, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

The problem is that OKC following the same process that Philadelphia did in order to get multiple stars via the draft. It makes a mockery of the competitive spirit of the league, it makes the sport unwatchable when there a team decides it's not even going to try to win games. If you don't understand why this is detrimental to the league and the sport as a whole, it's just willful ignorance on your part.

[jwise44]

What I still don't get is why they didn't trade Lowry if this was the plan. Unless your only offer was Andrew Wiggins, surely you could have gotten something for him before he presumably walks.

They screwed up the negotiation the reports had them trying to play Miami and Philly off each other with a crazy asking price and then both of those teams went elsewhere and Toronto was left holding the bag

And both Miami and Philly will regret the decision and come back to us this summer with a sign and trade offer equivalent to atleast what was offered at the deadline. This story isn’t over yet just wait.

You won’t get the equivalent of what was offered at the deadline

But I applaud Toronto for not caving when teams were low-balling

They won’t get much, if anything, in a sign and trade, but it’s ridiculous teams can low ball now with the whole players giving a list of teams now

[cjmcallist]

Yes, this is correct. I guess I just don't see any problem with that. I'm open to hearing what the problem is, but I don't see it - and haven't heard a good argument thus far.

I think where I'm not following you is: how do you know how long OKC's tank will last? It seems to me like your assuming something you don't know, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

The problem is that OKC following the same process that Philadelphia did in order to get multiple stars via the draft. It makes a mockery of the competitive spirit of the league, it makes the sport unwatchable when there a team decides it's not even going to try to win games. If you don't understand why this is detrimental to the league and the sport as a whole, it's just willful ignorance on your part.

No need to get personal. Reasonable people can disagree about tanking.

The way I see it is that OKC is giving up 2-3 years of competitiveness in exchange for 7-10 years of competitiveness. That was the story the first time around. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Look at teams like CLE, MIN, SAC, ORL. Are those really better alternatives? Not to me.

[Jadoogar]

OKC brought a heavy duty tank

Read on Twitter

[Badonkadonk]

They screwed up the negotiation the reports had them trying to play Miami and Philly off each other with a crazy asking price and then both of those teams went elsewhere and Toronto was left holding the bag

And both Miami and Philly will regret the decision and come back to us this summer with a sign and trade offer equivalent to atleast what was offered at the deadline. This story isn’t over yet just wait.

You won’t get the equivalent of what was offered at the deadline

But I applaud Toronto for not caving when teams were low-balling

They won’t get much, if anything, in a sign and trade, but it’s ridiculous teams can low ball now with the whole players giving a list of teams now

Miami was offering the Oladipo package, with one rumor suggesting MAYBE they'd consider Duncan Robinson in lieu of one of the players for Lowry (something the Raptors wouldn't want for the same reasons they traded away Norm Powell, who is also an RFA and straight up better).

Morey came out and said post-fact that they had no interest in trading future assets, and that they had the George Hill deal ready the day before the deadline. All of these Raptors fans wishing for Maxey or a 1st were dreaming.

Time will tell if that was the right gamble for Miami or Philly (with the latter being the interesting scenario), but there was no deal for Lowry that made sense. He has since sat for ~2/3rds of the Raptors games, so his presence hasn't derailed the tank either.

Bottom line - it was more valuable to keep him around and either extend him and revisit this whole thing next year or explore a S&T.

[ciueli]

Yes, this is correct. I guess I just don't see any problem with that. I'm open to hearing what the problem is, but I don't see it - and haven't heard a good argument thus far.

I think where I'm not following you is: how do you know how long OKC's tank will last? It seems to me like your assuming something you don't know, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

The problem is that OKC following the same process that Philadelphia did in order to get multiple stars via the draft. It makes a mockery of the competitive spirit of the league, it makes the sport unwatchable when there a team decides it's not even going to try to win games. If you don't understand why this is detrimental to the league and the sport as a whole, it's just willful ignorance on your part.

No need to get personal. Reasonable people can disagree about tanking.

The way I see it is that OKC is giving up 2-3 years of competitiveness in exchange for 7-10 years of competitiveness. That was the story the first time around. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Look at teams like CLE, MIN, SAC, ORL. Are those really better alternatives? Not to me.

The thing you're not factoring in is the impact on the league as a whole. Maybe you don't care about your team losing tons of games for 3+ years, but fans of other teams have to watch their team play your team. It's bad enough when one team does it, can you imagine how unwatchable the NBA would become if more than about 2-3 teams were doing the same thing simultaneously?

In the NBA there is something of a gentleman's agreement that teams won't do this, that every year each team will do its best to be competitive, at least until it's clear that the playoffs are out of reach due to injury, player regression, poor coaching, or lack of talent. You can argue that it's in a single team's best interest to implement an intentional multi-year tank job (I think even that is debatable because it's a path that fraught with randomness) but it will never be in the best interests of the league as a whole which is why there were a lot of unhappy owners the last time a team resorted to it (the "Process" 76ers).