How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient?

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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#21 » by JRoy » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:21 pm

Pattycakes wrote:He’s really there for pity, unless we’re really committing 25+ mins to 1 good game for every 9 stinkers. Nassir Little or even Ariza could have easily offered ten times the production on both ends of the court on the reg but we enjoy the chucker game plan as a franchise and that treadmill be churnin. It feels like a throwaway season despite our decent commitment to personnel for once. Stotts should have been fired by now, anyone out of Portland hopefully has realized the source of our nonexistent defense watching the Lakers 3rd string look a million times more unified than our freaking starters.


Hyperbole aside, I agree.

Too much iso ball, too little movement on offense and stinky d.

Time to send Stotts packing.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#22 » by BNM » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:32 pm

2015-16 Jamal Crawford == NBA 6th Man of the Year
26.9 MPG, 11.9 FGA/G, .404 FG%, .340 3FG%, .529 TS%, 14.2 PPG

2020-21 Carmelo Anthony == Regularly Trashed on RealGM General Board
25.2 MPG, 11.7 FGA/G, .413 FG%, .385 3FG%, .532 TS%, 13.5 PPG

Has the game really changed that much in 5 years? Way back in 2016, they gave guys awards for playing like Carmelo is today. Now, he's the poster child of inefficient chuckery.

Edit: After that 6th Man of the Year season, the Los Angeles Clippers awarded 36-year old Jamal Crawford with a 3-year $42 million contract. It wasn't just the award voters who were impressed with Crawford's production, it was also their coach/GM and owner. I don't see anyone throwing $42 million at Carmelo Anthony this offseason. He is currently on a vet min deal, which seems like a bargain given his production.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#23 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:He was widely thought of as the "best scorer in the league" for a while which kind of highlights how dumb basketball analysis was not so long ago. Even in his prime he was always just a marginally above average efficiency scorer.



Naw. This trend of just looking at efficiency and not analyzing how efficient shots are generated is so lazy.

For example one of the best ways to generate an efficient shot is to have a player who can create for themselves in order to draw double teams, but those players tend to be less efficient overall.

Carmelo at his prime was one of the best players at creating for himself. I'm not some big Carmelo fan but being able to create shots is not something ever player can do and is necessary to shift a defense so higher efficiency and lower volume players can be impactful. Basketball is a dynamic sport, meaning efficient shots don't grow on trees and have to be manufactured over and over. If it were easy everyone would do it but you act like it's just as simple as giving more shots to the more efficient and lower volume players and that totally misses a huge aspect of the game!
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#24 » by JasonStern » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:31 pm

As a Blazers fan that watches him play, Melo is hit and miss. He'll kill it one game, then go 1-8 or 2-10 with no assists the next game. Guy needs to load manage as he tends to play better when rested, but his pride won't let him do that. Probably had a handshake deal with Portland to be guaranteed minutes and shots, so you know he's going to use them. He's 220 points away from becoming 9th on the all-time scoring list, and barring injury, I'd be surprised if he doesn't eclipse that.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#25 » by og15 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:59 pm

BNM wrote:2015-16 Jamal Crawford == NBA 6th Man of the Year
26.9 MPG, 11.9 FGA/G, .404 FG%, .340 3FG%, .529 TS%, 14.2 PPG

2020-21 Carmelo Anthony == Regularly Trashed on RealGM General Board
25.2 MPG, 11.7 FGA/G, .413 FG%, .385 3FG%, .532 TS%, 13.5 PPG

Has the game really changed that much in 5 years? Way back in 2016, they gave guys awards for playing like Carmelo is today. Now, he's the poster child of inefficient chuckery.

Edit: After that 6th Man of the Year season, the Los Angeles Clippers awarded 36-year old Jamal Crawford with a 3-year $42 million contract. It wasn't just the award voters who were impressed with Crawford's production, it was also their coach/GM and owner. I don't see anyone throwing $42 million at Carmelo Anthony this offseason. He is currently on a vet min deal, which seems like a bargain given his production.

I'd say that the teammates were more impressed than the management.

Now, that was a bad off-season of contracts, so that's part of it, go look at the contracts handed out that off-season for better context. Austin Rivers got a pay day too. Jamal was originally not offered anything close to that. It was after the teammates complained and Austin's contract with his dad as PoBo was cited that Jamal was given that contract.

6th man of the year can at times be such a dumb award though, that's for sure. I call it the highest ppg off the bench award.

In terms of Carmelo, he's 36 or 37, so not sure why one would expect much more.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#26 » by BNM » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:52 pm

JasonStern wrote:As a Blazers fan that watches him play, Melo is hit and miss. He'll kill it one game, then go 1-8 or 2-10 with no assists the next game. Guy needs to load manage as he tends to play better when rested, but his pride won't let him do that. Probably had a handshake deal with Portland to be guaranteed minutes and shots, so you know he's going to use them. He's 220 points away from becoming 9th on the all-time scoring list, and barring injury, I'd be surprised if he doesn't eclipse that.


You're exaggerating (he's had exactly two such games all season), but your point is valid. Melo is streaky and definitely plays better when rested. Coming into the season, I expected him to be an 8th, or 9th man, at best. Injuries, unfortunately, have forced him into a larger role. He hasn't been terrible, in general, he's just being asked to do too much and has semi-regular bad games. It's a tough schedule for all players this year, but especially for someone Carmelo's age. In fact, I'm pleasantly surprised he hasn't been a lot worse, given his age and minutes.

He's also had some really good games that POR doesn't win without his scoring. He's scored 18 or more points 16 times this season and POR is 12-4 in those 16 games. Unfortunately, he's also had 17 games scoring in single digits and POR is 7-10 in those 17 games. So, yeah, he's streaky and when he's good, he's still very good, but when he's not hitting his shots, he's bad and hurting the team. But you can say that about a lot of volume scorers in this league, especially bench players.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#27 » by BNM » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:57 pm

og15 wrote:
BNM wrote:2015-16 Jamal Crawford == NBA 6th Man of the Year
26.9 MPG, 11.9 FGA/G, .404 FG%, .340 3FG%, .529 TS%, 14.2 PPG

2020-21 Carmelo Anthony == Regularly Trashed on RealGM General Board
25.2 MPG, 11.7 FGA/G, .413 FG%, .385 3FG%, .532 TS%, 13.5 PPG

Has the game really changed that much in 5 years? Way back in 2016, they gave guys awards for playing like Carmelo is today. Now, he's the poster child of inefficient chuckery.

Edit: After that 6th Man of the Year season, the Los Angeles Clippers awarded 36-year old Jamal Crawford with a 3-year $42 million contract. It wasn't just the award voters who were impressed with Crawford's production, it was also their coach/GM and owner. I don't see anyone throwing $42 million at Carmelo Anthony this offseason. He is currently on a vet min deal, which seems like a bargain given his production.

I'd say that the teammates were more impressed than the management.

Now, that was a bad off-season of contracts, so that's part of it, go look at the contracts handed out that off-season for better context. Austin Rivers got a pay day too. Jamal was originally not offered anything close to that. It was after the teammates complained and Austin's contract with his dad as PoBo was cited that Jamal was given that contract.

6th man of the year can at times be such a dumb award though, that's for sure. I call it the highest ppg off the bench award.

In terms of Carmelo, he's 36 or 37, so not sure why one would expect much more.


No need to remind this POR fan about bad contracts in the summer of 2016 (Evan Turner, Allen Crabbe, Meyers Leonard, Festus Ezeli), but you made a good point. Doc is a good coach, but was a terrible GM, especially in terms of cap management. That contract he gave his son put them over the luxury tax threshold and, I believe, put them in repeater tax territory. He could have paid Austin $2 million over fair market value and stayed below the tax threshold, but basically paid his son twice what he was worth.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#28 » by Danny1616 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:58 pm

He takes really stupid shots. He's been taking stupid shots for most his career but he was still decently efficient until around 2014 because he had a great combination of size, strength and quickness. Peak melo around 2008/2009 was almost unstoppable offensively. Once he lost a bit of that athleticism, his efficiency went down because of his poor basketball IQ.

He's had a nice career, but I always thought Melo never got close to his potential. It's rare to find someone with such a smooth stroke, his size, quickness, athleticism all in one package.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#29 » by FreeSpiritNY » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:01 pm

Carmelo is now who he has always been. He is just taking less shots. Inefficient. He does t make anyone around him better and doesn't open the game for anyone.

Never liked him. NOT A TEAM PLAYER. :-?
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#30 » by fanofthegreats » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:49 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:He was widely thought of as the "best scorer in the league" for a while which kind of highlights how dumb basketball analysis was not so long ago. Even in his prime he was always just a marginally above average efficiency scorer.



Naw. This trend of just looking at efficiency and not analyzing how efficient shots are generated is so lazy.

For example one of the best ways to generate an efficient shot is to have a player who can create for themselves in order to draw double teams, but those players tend to be less efficient overall.

Carmelo at his prime was one of the best players at creating for himself. I'm not some big Carmelo fan but being able to create shots is not something ever player can do and is necessary to shift a defense so higher efficiency and lower volume players can be impactful. Basketball is a dynamic sport, meaning efficient shots don't grow on trees and have to be manufactured over and over. If it were easy everyone would do it but you act like it's just as simple as giving more shots to the more efficient and lower volume players and that totally misses a huge aspect of the game!


Your on the right track that numbers should always be viewed with context. But all of the great scorers in the past that people think Melo should be placed with were clearly more efficient (James Jordan Durant ). I don’t buy that an elite shot creator has to take a hit on efficiency, either your at that tier or not.

It’s the same game Kobe fans play when asked about his relative inefficiency compared to the tier 1 scorers.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#31 » by BIGJ1ER » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:54 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:
jptremblay wrote:It's frustating to watch Melo, he has size, never relied much on athleticisim,

He relied a lot on athleticism in his prime, he had an incredible first step for a guy his size, that's how he got to the rim so easily and once he got there, he was strong enough to finish through contact against pretty much every wing defender in the league. And now he's lost his explosiveness it's normal to be much less efficient, especially with his ego being still pretty big and the green light he gets from the coach for some some mysterious reason.


What's interesting is how he was always a poor rim finisher, even in his prime. What helped him was his lethal second jump which allowed him to grab alot of his own misses.

He was also poor at drawing fouls relative to his playstyle and attack zones, which as a younger Knicks fan back in the day I thought was honorable since he wasn't a 'flopper', but realistically it always hamstrung him.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#32 » by og15 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:22 pm

BNM wrote:
og15 wrote:
BNM wrote:2015-16 Jamal Crawford == NBA 6th Man of the Year
26.9 MPG, 11.9 FGA/G, .404 FG%, .340 3FG%, .529 TS%, 14.2 PPG

2020-21 Carmelo Anthony == Regularly Trashed on RealGM General Board
25.2 MPG, 11.7 FGA/G, .413 FG%, .385 3FG%, .532 TS%, 13.5 PPG

Has the game really changed that much in 5 years? Way back in 2016, they gave guys awards for playing like Carmelo is today. Now, he's the poster child of inefficient chuckery.

Edit: After that 6th Man of the Year season, the Los Angeles Clippers awarded 36-year old Jamal Crawford with a 3-year $42 million contract. It wasn't just the award voters who were impressed with Crawford's production, it was also their coach/GM and owner. I don't see anyone throwing $42 million at Carmelo Anthony this offseason. He is currently on a vet min deal, which seems like a bargain given his production.

I'd say that the teammates were more impressed than the management.

Now, that was a bad off-season of contracts, so that's part of it, go look at the contracts handed out that off-season for better context. Austin Rivers got a pay day too. Jamal was originally not offered anything close to that. It was after the teammates complained and Austin's contract with his dad as PoBo was cited that Jamal was given that contract.

6th man of the year can at times be such a dumb award though, that's for sure. I call it the highest ppg off the bench award.

In terms of Carmelo, he's 36 or 37, so not sure why one would expect much more.


No need to remind this POR fan about bad contracts in the summer of 2016 (Evan Turner, Allen Crabbe, Meyers Leonard, Festus Ezeli), but you made a good point. Doc is a good coach, but was a terrible GM, especially in terms of cap management. That contract he gave his son put them over the luxury tax threshold and, I believe, put them in repeater tax territory. He could have paid Austin $2 million over fair market value and stayed below the tax threshold, but basically paid his son twice what he was worth.

Yea, giving Austin $11 million was, well, interesting. Even in that bloated contract off-season, he should not have gotten much more than a mild raise from his $3 million the last season, especially not from a team looking to contend.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#33 » by meekrab » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:41 pm

Danny1616 wrote:He takes really stupid shots. He's been taking stupid shots for most his career but he was still decently efficient until around 2014 because he had a great combination of size, strength and quickness. Peak melo around 2008/2009 was almost unstoppable offensively. Once he lost a bit of that athleticism, his efficiency went down because of his poor basketball IQ.

He's had a nice career, but I always thought Melo never got close to his potential. It's rare to find someone with such a smooth stroke, his size, quickness, athleticism all in one package.

Ironically, 2009 Melo was equally as inefficient as current Melo, he just took a lot more shots.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#34 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:47 pm

jptremblay wrote:It's frustating to watch Melo, he has size, never relied much on athleticisim, plays in a team where other players (Lillard, CJ) take off pressure on him giving free spots for Melo...but his stats are still bad.
I'm not a Melo hater, after Durant he is the best skilled wing as a pure scorer in the last 20 years. He can post up, face up, shoot 3s, long 2s, great footwork, handles, he can score from every spot on the court, but his number are still bad.

53% TS is just bad for him. I know he never was too much efficient in his prime, but he had a high usage surrounded with meh players...but know he has no excuse.


4 big things:

1. There are players with a good sense of efficiency, and there are players without. Melo's always been the latter. He can do all the things you'd want as a scorer, but he never knew the optimal technique to use in each setting. This didn't make him a bad player, but it's always held him back.

2. The assumption that a player can be more efficient in a more limited role tends to implicitly presume that the bad shots will be cut out and only the good will remain, but if this isn't something you can force with offensive design, you're still just relying on that player's judgment, which with Melo, was never great.

3. It has to be understood that back when Melo was young he was getting to the rim a lot. Way more shots from 3 ft in, way more free throws. Those were the numbers inflating Melo's efficiency to adequacy. Take those away and even though he's feasting on assisted 3 attempts, he's still hurting.

4. For perspective, Melo's now been in the league for about as long as he was alive prior to being in the NBA, and he's still putting up efficiency that puts MVP Iverson to shame. I understand that the league is more efficient now and we tend to judge players based on that standards, but the primary thing that's happened is just that the league has gotten way, way smarter. All this to say, if Melo were putting up these numbers in a less smart era, we wouldn't say it was inefficient.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#35 » by monopoman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:15 am

BNM wrote:2015-16 Jamal Crawford == NBA 6th Man of the Year
26.9 MPG, 11.9 FGA/G, .404 FG%, .340 3FG%, .529 TS%, 14.2 PPG

2020-21 Carmelo Anthony == Regularly Trashed on RealGM General Board
25.2 MPG, 11.7 FGA/G, .413 FG%, .385 3FG%, .532 TS%, 13.5 PPG

Has the game really changed that much in 5 years? Way back in 2016, they gave guys awards for playing like Carmelo is today. Now, he's the poster child of inefficient chuckery.

Edit: After that 6th Man of the Year season, the Los Angeles Clippers awarded 36-year old Jamal Crawford with a 3-year $42 million contract. It wasn't just the award voters who were impressed with Crawford's production, it was also their coach/GM and owner. I don't see anyone throwing $42 million at Carmelo Anthony this offseason. He is currently on a vet min deal, which seems like a bargain given his production.


Indeed and Jamal in 2015-2016 might be an even worse defender than Carmelo is today. The Blazer offense while a bit one dimensional is fine for the most part, I think I need more consistent effort and defensive schemes on the other end that is the problem.
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Re: How Carmelo Anthony manages to be so inefficient? 

Post#36 » by jptremblay » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:30 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
jptremblay wrote:It's frustating to watch Melo, he has size, never relied much on athleticisim, plays in a team where other players (Lillard, CJ) take off pressure on him giving free spots for Melo...but his stats are still bad.
I'm not a Melo hater, after Durant he is the best skilled wing as a pure scorer in the last 20 years. He can post up, face up, shoot 3s, long 2s, great footwork, handles, he can score from every spot on the court, but his number are still bad.

53% TS is just bad for him. I know he never was too much efficient in his prime, but he had a high usage surrounded with meh players...but know he has no excuse.


4 big things:

1. There are players with a good sense of efficiency, and there are players without. Melo's always been the latter. He can do all the things you'd want as a scorer, but he never knew the optimal technique to use in each setting. This didn't make him a bad player, but it's always held him back.

2. The assumption that a player can be more efficient in a more limited role tends to implicitly presume that the bad shots will be cut out and only the good will remain, but if this isn't something you can force with offensive design, you're still just relying on that player's judgment, which with Melo, was never great.

3. It has to be understood that back when Melo was young he was getting to the rim a lot. Way more shots from 3 ft in, way more free throws. Those were the numbers inflating Melo's efficiency to adequacy. Take those away and even though he's feasting on assisted 3 attempts, he's still hurting.

4. For perspective, Melo's now been in the league for about as long as he was alive prior to being in the NBA, and he's still putting up efficiency that puts MVP Iverson to shame. I understand that the league is more efficient now and we tend to judge players based on that standards, but the primary thing that's happened is just that the league has gotten way, way smarter. All this to say, if Melo were putting up these numbers in a less smart era, we wouldn't say it was inefficient.


I agree, thanks for the explanation.
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