Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic?

[velkisimo]

Unless i am reading this wrong, your argument values more 1 blowout game where a team beat Denver by 20 over 4 games where Denver won against that same team by 4 (talking about numbers Jokić was on the floor). According to that, Jokić is playing losing basketball at -4 while winning. This is just a random example, im not speaking about what actually happened.

Obviously this argument works the other way as well for someone with good numbers. I am horrible with pulling these stats, but it would be cool to see individual playoff games +/- and evaluate them as such, not summarized statistics that can be heavily impacted by outliers on small sample size, which playoff games can be.

The same thing happened in Sixers-Raptors Game 5, where the Sixers got destroyed. It doesn't make sense to me to exclude that data for either player though - their impact (or more likely, lack thereof) would have been a strong factor for why they were blown out in a given game.

You can't just exclude the games where a player got most dominated when you're trying to make an argument about who dominates more.

I thought argument was about playing winning basketball, not just colorful numbers. There is always going to be dry shooting spells. Playoff games are best of 7, so horrendous game or 2 will hurt you but wont kill you. Can kill your +/- though. Or vice versa, can prop it up.

Like i said, i dont know what these number are, havent looked, dont know who they favor. Just thought it would be a better way to look at +/-. Personally, give me either player at -4 on the floor but winning 4 out of 5 in the example i mentioned above

[TTP]

Debatable offensively.

Not even close defensively.

It's pretty easy. And I don't even think it's true, Jokic and Doncic are NBA darlings but people act like the world is against them for not tying the MVP every year.

It's not a debate offensively lol. You think just because Embiid is a volume scorer he has an argument?

I've been seeing this a lot lately and I really don't know why he has this reputation. He's fallen on his face in the playoffs even harder than Giannis has

This isn't true though.

Embiid has 757 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 7.0. His team is getting outscored by 7.2 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Giannis has 1515 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 2.2. His team is getting outscored by 0.1 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Embiid critics are just penalizing him for the Sixers performance when he's off the floor, where they have gotten absolutely destroyed. Giannis hasn't done nearly as much with his units, and his team has been breakeven when he's been off the floor.

Just for comparison, here's a list of #1 playoff options ranked by their career playoff on-court net ratings:

Kawhi: +10.4
Curry: +8.4
Embiid: +7.0
CP3: +7.0
Tatum: +7.0
LeBron: +6.3
Harden: +5.9
Durant: +5.7
Playoff P: +5.6
Westbrook: +4.5
Butler: +4.3
Lillard: +3.2
Giannis: +2.2
AD: +1.6
Jokic: +1.2


Now here's how each of their teams perform in the playoffs when they're off the floor:

Kawhi: +4.5
Harden: +0.8
Westbrook: 0.0
Giannis: -0.1
Durant: -0.6
Tatum: -0.7
Playoff P: -1.5
Butler: -2.6
Curry: -3.4
CP3: -3.5
AD: -3.5
Lillard: -3.9
LeBron: -4.1
Embiid: -7.2
Jokic: -7.5


Only Kawhi and Curry have averaged more dominant playoff units, and only Jokic has gotten less out of his teammates when he sits. The Sixers have absolutely crushed with Embiid on the floor in the playoffs, and they've gotten stomped when he's on the bench - blame Simmons or whoever if you want, but Embiid has done all he can.

[turnaroundJ]

I think it’s really close, and I would rather decide through intangibles like how well they lead teams to wins, and how they’ll look in the playoffs for the next few years. Alternatively, would you take a 9 on offense and 9 on defense vs a 10 on offense and 7 on defense? (very rough and subjective estimates)

In basketball I don’t think we just add the sum of the two. It’s a lot more complicated than just saying one player plays better defense. Being extremely elite in one aspect can still set you apart. Just because Dirk didn’t play defense as well as KG or Malone, he was not on there level? I think he was at the minimum, if not higher. But for now I lean towards Jokic. But it’s close. He’s one of the most talented players I’ve ever watched. Embiid too, but Jokic controls the game in a different way.

[LikeABosh]

It's not a debate offensively lol. You think just because Embiid is a volume scorer he has an argument?

I've been seeing this a lot lately and I really don't know why he has this reputation. He's fallen on his face in the playoffs even harder than Giannis has

Are you talking about Embiid here? Just want to check.

In game 7 against the Raptors - a game the Sixers lost on a freaking prayer of a shot by Kawhi - Embiid played FORTY FIVE minutes. In the THREE minutes he did not play, the Sixers were outscored by ELEVEN points.

HOW THE F IS THAT EMBIID'S FAULT?

That's very interesting but it also has nothing to do with what we're talking about

[LikeABosh]

It's not a debate offensively lol. You think just because Embiid is a volume scorer he has an argument?

I've been seeing this a lot lately and I really don't know why he has this reputation. He's fallen on his face in the playoffs even harder than Giannis has

This isn't true though.

Embiid has 757 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 7.0. His team is getting outscored by 7.2 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Giannis has 1515 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 2.2. His team is getting outscored by 0.1 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Embiid critics are just penalizing him for the Sixers performance when he's off the floor, where they have gotten absolutely destroyed. Giannis hasn't done nearly as much with his units, and his team has been breakeven when he's been off the floor.

Just for comparison, here's a list of #1 playoff options ranked by their career playoff on-court net ratings:

Kawhi: +10.4
Curry: +8.4
Embiid: +7.0
CP3: +7.0
Tatum: +7.0
LeBron: +6.3
Harden: +5.9
Durant: +5.7
Playoff P: +5.6
Westbrook: +4.5
Butler: +4.3
Lillard: +3.2
Giannis: +2.2
AD: +1.6
Jokic: +1.2


Now here's how each of their teams perform in the playoffs when they're off the floor:

Kawhi: +4.5
Harden: +0.8
Westbrook: 0.0
Giannis: -0.1
Durant: -0.6
Tatum: -0.7
Playoff P: -1.5
Butler: -2.6
Curry: -3.4
CP3: -3.5
AD: -3.5
Lillard: -3.9
LeBron: -4.1
Embiid: -7.2
Jokic: -7.5


Only Kawhi and Curry have averaged more dominant playoff units, and only Jokic has gotten less out of his teammates when he sits. The Sixers have absolutely crushed with Embiid on the floor in the playoffs, and they've gotten stomped when he's on the bench - blame Simmons or whoever if you want, but Embiid has done all he can.

I don't know why you wasted your time posting all of this. Was the argument that he was a bad player? We're talking about his reputation as a scorer. He's had Giannis-like drop offs in the playoffs in his offensive production and efficiency, but somehow there's still people who think he compares to Jokic on offense (who has played as good if not better in the playoffs vs the RS)

[TTP]

Spoiler:

I've been seeing this a lot lately and I really don't know why he has this reputation. He's fallen on his face in the playoffs even harder than Giannis has

This isn't true though.

Embiid has 757 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 7.0. His team is getting outscored by 7.2 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Giannis has 1515 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 2.2. His team is getting outscored by 0.1 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Embiid critics are just penalizing him for the Sixers performance when he's off the floor, where they have gotten absolutely destroyed. Giannis hasn't done nearly as much with his units, and his team has been breakeven when he's been off the floor.

Just for comparison, here's a list of #1 playoff options ranked by their career playoff on-court net ratings:

Kawhi: +10.4
Curry: +8.4
Embiid: +7.0
CP3: +7.0
Tatum: +7.0
LeBron: +6.3
Harden: +5.9
Durant: +5.7
Playoff P: +5.6
Westbrook: +4.5
Butler: +4.3
Lillard: +3.2
Giannis: +2.2
AD: +1.6
Jokic: +1.2


Now here's how each of their teams perform in the playoffs when they're off the floor:

Kawhi: +4.5
Harden: +0.8
Westbrook: 0.0
Giannis: -0.1
Durant: -0.6
Tatum: -0.7
Playoff P: -1.5
Butler: -2.6
Curry: -3.4
CP3: -3.5
AD: -3.5
Lillard: -3.9
LeBron: -4.1
Embiid: -7.2
Jokic: -7.5


Only Kawhi and Curry have averaged more dominant playoff units, and only Jokic has gotten less out of his teammates when he sits. The Sixers have absolutely crushed with Embiid on the floor in the playoffs, and they've gotten stomped when he's on the bench - blame Simmons or whoever if you want, but Embiid has done all he can.

I don't know why you wasted your time posting all of this. Was the argument that he was a bad player? We're talking about his reputation as a scorer. He's had Giannis-like drop offs in the playoffs in his offensive production and efficiency, but somehow there's still people who think he compares to Jokic on offense (who has played as good if not better in the playoffs vs the RS)

Fair enough. Your specific comment I responded to didn't specify scorer in the post I quoted so I just assumed you meant overall impact, but now I see it in some earlier posts you made.

Regardless, my post is still useful for my other arguments here so it's far from a waste.

[The_Hater]

This thing called defense.

Media and casuals almost always say winning/playoff performance is the end all be all for deciding which players are the best.
Well Jokic's playoff resume is head and shoulders above what Embiid has done. It makes zero sense...Jokic's playoff numbers are better...he's gone farther in the post season...like why...why is this even a debate. Jokic is clearly the best Center in the world and it's driving me insane that so many people still believe Embiid is better. Skip Bayless can't even remember his name Why can't Jokic get a fair shake..

Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%

Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%

[LikeABosh]

Spoiler:

This isn't true though.

Embiid has 757 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 7.0. His team is getting outscored by 7.2 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Giannis has 1515 career playoff minutes. In those minutes, his units are outscoring opponents by 2.2. His team is getting outscored by 0.1 in the minutes he doesn't play.

Embiid critics are just penalizing him for the Sixers performance when he's off the floor, where they have gotten absolutely destroyed. Giannis hasn't done nearly as much with his units, and his team has been breakeven when he's been off the floor.

Just for comparison, here's a list of #1 playoff options ranked by their career playoff on-court net ratings:

Kawhi: +10.4
Curry: +8.4
Embiid: +7.0
CP3: +7.0
Tatum: +7.0
LeBron: +6.3
Harden: +5.9
Durant: +5.7
Playoff P: +5.6
Westbrook: +4.5
Butler: +4.3
Lillard: +3.2
Giannis: +2.2
AD: +1.6
Jokic: +1.2


Now here's how each of their teams perform in the playoffs when they're off the floor:

Kawhi: +4.5
Harden: +0.8
Westbrook: 0.0
Giannis: -0.1
Durant: -0.6
Tatum: -0.7
Playoff P: -1.5
Butler: -2.6
Curry: -3.4
CP3: -3.5
AD: -3.5
Lillard: -3.9
LeBron: -4.1
Embiid: -7.2
Jokic: -7.5


Only Kawhi and Curry have averaged more dominant playoff units, and only Jokic has gotten less out of his teammates when he sits. The Sixers have absolutely crushed with Embiid on the floor in the playoffs, and they've gotten stomped when he's on the bench - blame Simmons or whoever if you want, but Embiid has done all he can.

I don't know why you wasted your time posting all of this. Was the argument that he was a bad player? We're talking about his reputation as a scorer. He's had Giannis-like drop offs in the playoffs in his offensive production and efficiency, but somehow there's still people who think he compares to Jokic on offense (who has played as good if not better in the playoffs vs the RS)

Fair enough. I didn't see you say anything about scorer in the post I quoted but now I see it in some earlier posts you made.

Regardless, my post is still useful for my other arguments here so it's far from a waste.

Yeah, I don't think I mentioned it specifically but I was just following the conversation. Nevermind

[Galloisdaman]

I think both are very good but also benefit being in this era of centers.

Offensively I would give Jokic the edge. Defensively I would give Embiid the edge but neither one of these guys is at the level of great defensive centers.

I thought Anthony Davis was the best big man when Denver played the Lakers in last years playoffs.

[r0drig0lac]

That's the most casual argument you can make..only proving my point.

ok nuggets fan

You hate white European players. You know you do. Why the charade? Just own it, why not just say it, when everyone knows it already?

NO, Bodiroga and Diamantidis are among my 10 favorite players, the rest of your post is just your opinion and I don't really care (with your opinion about my opinion or anything), I think we clarify it here.

[Beethoven]

..it's driving me insane that so many people still believe ..something else

Why is it so important for you that some others think or believe something different than you? As long as you opine that Jokic is better than Embiid , than that is all that should matter to you , no? You'll drive yourself crazy when youre always focused on comparisons (rather than just liking something) and how other perceive that comparison.

[_qubik]

Because he plays something called defense.

This is a really bizarre argument that I always see. The assumption here is that Embiid is similar to Jokic offensively so his defense gives him the edge.

Except it isn't the case here, Embiid isn't even in the same stratosphere as Jokic offensively. Jokic anchors a top 3 offense. Embiid anchors a top 15 offense which is not good for a "30 ppg scorer" with one all star and a border-line all star on his team and multiple competent shooters like Seth Curry and Danny Green shooting over 40% on high volume.

This is like a Giannis vs Steph Curry comparison. Steph is a mediocre defender, Giannis is a "two way player" except Giannis is a higher impact offensive player than Embiid to be honest.

Top defenses win champioships without a top offense, the other way cant be said though. If Jokic play in schemes like this Nuggets he will go down as one of the greatest to never win a title

[Mickey8]

I think both are very good but also benefit being in this era of centers.

Offensively I would give Jokic the edge. Defensively I would give Embiid the edge but neither one of these guys is at the level of great defensive centers.

I thought Anthony Davis was the best big man when Denver played the Lakers in last years playoffs.

Anthony Davis was getting away with the murder in that series , because he was allowed to play the defense while committing fouls, bunch of uncalled fouls against Millsap for an example while Denver defenders would get whistle against them if they would look in the direction of Davis , Howard was let hacking Jokic on every position, that's the luxury when one team have the refs in their pockets, you turn to the proper channels like the Lakers organization did, going with that statement publicly with no shame, if that's not a fix , then I don't know what it is

[Mickey8]

Because he plays something called defense.

This is a really bizarre argument that I always see. The assumption here is that Embiid is similar to Jokic offensively so his defense gives him the edge.

Except it isn't the case here, Embiid isn't even in the same stratosphere as Jokic offensively. Jokic anchors a top 3 offense. Embiid anchors a top 15 offense which is not good for a "30 ppg scorer" with one all star and a border-line all star on his team and multiple competent shooters like Seth Curry and Danny Green shooting over 40% on high volume.

This is like a Giannis vs Steph Curry comparison. Steph is a mediocre defender, Giannis is a "two way player" except Giannis is a higher impact offensive player than Embiid to be honest.

Top defenses win champioships without a top offense, the other way cant be said though. If Jokic play in schemes like this Nuggets he will go down as one of the greatest to never win a title

Dirk Nowitzki was a great defender You surround Jokic with the defensive minded players that are useful on the offense and you can win with him, even now Jokic have the better defensive win share than Embiid . Jokic is the better play off performer than Embiid in a much tougher Conference. As I said Embiid is overrated as the defender , he's lucky he has Simmons on that end, that makes him look great .

[Beethoven]

I think both are very good but also benefit being in this era of centers.

Offensively I would give Jokic the edge. Defensively I would give Embiid the edge but neither one of these guys is at the level of great defensive centers.

I thought Anthony Davis was the best big man when Denver played the Lakers in last years playoffs.

Definitely. The better defense moves onward. AD and Dwight absolutely played great against them.

[The Rebel]

This thing called defense.

Media and casuals almost always say winning/playoff performance is the end all be all for deciding which players are the best.
Well Jokic's playoff resume is head and shoulders above what Embiid has done. It makes zero sense...Jokic's playoff numbers are better...he's gone farther in the post season...like why...why is this even a debate. Jokic is clearly the best Center in the world and it's driving me insane that so many people still believe Embiid is better. Skip Bayless can't even remember his name Why can't Jokic get a fair shake..

Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%

Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%

Defense, you mean like Embiid giving up more points at the rim than Jokic does?

[Galloisdaman]

I think both are very good but also benefit being in this era of centers.

Offensively I would give Jokic the edge. Defensively I would give Embiid the edge but neither one of these guys is at the level of great defensive centers.

I thought Anthony Davis was the best big man when Denver played the Lakers in last years playoffs.

Anthony Davis was getting away with the murder in that series , because he was allowed to play the defense while committing fouls, bunch of uncalled fouls against Millsap for an example while Denver defenders would get whistle against them if they would look in the direction of Davis , Howard was let hacking Jokic on every position, that's the luxury when one team have the refs in their pockets, you turn to the proper channels like the Lakers organization did, going with that statement publicly with no shame, if that's not a fix , then I don't know what it is

Sometimes refs are not perfect. I do not think it was fixed but I have seen calls go to some bigger name players and teams for sure at times.

[Hal14]

It's close.

Both of them are absolute freaks/monsters. 2 of the best players in the league, in their prime and also possibly at their peak, carrying really good teams. Embiid is better on defense but Jokic is better at creating for others/passing/making teammates better.

I feel like Jokic's passing edge is slightly bigger than Embiid's defense edge, and also ability to be insanely good at creating for others is also a slightly more valuable skill to actually make a team better than defense. Jokic is by far the best passing big man in the league, not even close. Might even be the best passing big of all time. You can't say the same about Embiid's defense. He's not the best defensive big in the league, let alone being anywhere close to best defensive big of all time.

That's why I have Jokic higher...just barely.

Playoffs is where it matters most, though. How each guy performs in this year's playoffs and how far they can carry their team will tell us more about who's better. Of course, you do have to take into account Embiid has a better supporting cast, especially with Murray out for the year, plus Embiid plays in the easier conference..

[The_Hater]

This thing called defense.

Media and casuals almost always say winning/playoff performance is the end all be all for deciding which players are the best.
Well Jokic's playoff resume is head and shoulders above what Embiid has done. It makes zero sense...Jokic's playoff numbers are better...he's gone farther in the post season...like why...why is this even a debate. Jokic is clearly the best Center in the world and it's driving me insane that so many people still believe Embiid is better. Skip Bayless can't even remember his name Why can't Jokic get a fair shake..

Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%

Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%

Defense, you mean like Embiid giving up more points at the rim than Jokic does?

Are your actually trying to make some sort of argument that Jokic is superior to Embiid defensively because you found a half season worth of exactly one stat?

That’s not a good look my friend. But sure, please continue.

[dickfox]

I just think the defensive edge Embiid has is important. However, Jokic's defense ain't horrible and if you put good defensive players around him, he can lead you to a championship. He doesn't have that right now with Murray and Porter Jr. so I'd say Philly is in a better spot to win it all. Give Jokic, Jrue Holiday and Jimmy Butler, and it's a different story.