Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic?

[TTP]

Embiid is a great player but even when healthy i dont trust his offensive game to translate to the playoffs.
He is is skilled but is also getting babied by the refs and gets an easy whistle on contact he initiates. Once the playoffs start and refs swallow their whistles his efficiency will take a big dip.

His defense is good but is also being bolstered by playing on a really good defensive team.
Would he be great at defense on a bad defensive team where he also has to carry a big offensive load? I doubt it, especially considering his durability issues.

Give me Jokic any time.

We have plenty of evidence of Embiid dominating in the playoffs though, and that was before he took a huge step forward offensively with his mid-range game and passing this year.

His free throw rate in the playoffs to date (.566) is actually higher than his regular season free throw rate (.537).

Embiid has played 757 career playoff minutes. The Sixers are +7.0 in those minutes. They are an absurd +14.2 better while Embiid is on the floor.

Just as a comparison, LeBron is widely considered to be one of the greatest of our era at elevating his game for the playoffs. His teams are only +6.3 in the playoffs and +10.5 better when he's on the floor.

People that thinks Embiid's game won't translate to the playoffs are just not paying attention. It already has. Now he might finally have the team that doesn't let him down.

Are you pulling these numbers out of the 4 game playoff series against Boston or his career averages? I assume its the former.

Career averages. His numbers were terrible in the 4 game series vs Boston and dragged his career numbers down a bit. His numbers in 2018-19 were absolutely unreal (+41.3 on/offs that postseason).

[birdlives_ma]

Well if we're talking about winning, either have won anything of note, so that's kind of a moot point.

For me though, it's pretty simple: Jokic is an elite offensive player, and a below-average defender. Embiid is a really good offensive player, and an elite defender. Center is the only position where both things probably matter equally. Therefore, gimme Embiid.

I've always thought that Embiid has a slight edge as a player over Jokic. However, given that Jokic never gets hurt and Embiid is just by default going to miss 20-30% of each season, I'll take Jokic. His overall production is better than Embiid by virtue of being more available.

That's totally fair. That is the best ability, after all.

[Snotbubbles]

We have plenty of evidence of Embiid dominating in the playoffs though, and that was before he took a huge step forward offensively with his mid-range game and passing this year.

His free throw rate in the playoffs to date (.566) is actually higher than his regular season free throw rate (.537).

Embiid has played 757 career playoff minutes. The Sixers are +7.0 in those minutes. They are an absurd +14.2 better while Embiid is on the floor.

Just as a comparison, LeBron is widely considered to be one of the greatest of our era at elevating his game for the playoffs. His teams are only +6.3 in the playoffs and +10.5 better when he's on the floor.

People that thinks Embiid's game won't translate to the playoffs are just not paying attention. It already has. Now he might finally have the team that doesn't let him down.

Are you pulling these numbers out of the 4 game playoff series against Boston or his career averages? I assume its the former.

Career averages. His numbers were terrible in the 4 game series vs Boston and dragged his career numbers down a bit. His numbers in 2018-19 were absolutely unreal (+41.3 on/offs that postseason).

Embiid was the only Sixer that actually showed up that series. I'll be interested to see how Denver does in this years playoffs without Murray. Embiid's numbers in the playoffs have been getting better each year.

[WHITE_HOT_HEAT]

Jokic is white and chubby...

Simple reason

[kuclas]

Embiid 0-4 Boston no Simmons even though he averaged 30-10 on elite true shooting percentages. Why? Because defense matters and Embiid didn’t play good defense (neither did the Sixers team)

Embiid struggles offensively against raptors 2019 but elite defensively.

That’s why you can’t pay attention to offensive numbers.

The real question for Denver fans is why they struggled to barley beat lower seeded teams even with home court in 2019. Spurs 4-3 and than lost to Portland 3-4.

Again in the bubble 4-3 jazz and than another 4-3 vs clippers (more due to Murray). Than 1-4 lakers.

What’s gonna to happen with Jokic in the playoffs this year without Murray. They are most likely staring at a matchup vs lakers. With home court. Nuggets may make it 1-4. Without home court and healthy lakers. Nuggets looking at 0-4 as well. Are Jokic supporters gonna to make excuses why they gonna to get bounced in the first round playoffs? Of course they will. They will likely point to Jokic 30-10-6 numbers vs lakers in a 1-4 lost and say. Look at those great stats. And Murray was hurt.

[Cookin Baskets]

Jokic is a better passer but defensively and on the low block Embiid is more physical. They are both great centers really.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Jokic is white and chubby...

Simple reason

He looks like a 7-foot version of the janitor from my elementary school. That’s my reason. Lol

[Alatan]

We have plenty of evidence of Embiid dominating in the playoffs though, and that was before he took a huge step forward offensively with his mid-range game and passing this year.

His free throw rate in the playoffs to date (.566) is actually higher than his regular season free throw rate (.537).

Embiid has played 757 career playoff minutes. The Sixers are +7.0 in those minutes. They are an absurd +14.2 better while Embiid is on the floor.

Just as a comparison, LeBron is widely considered to be one of the greatest of our era at elevating his game for the playoffs. His teams are only +6.3 in the playoffs and +10.5 better when he's on the floor.

People that thinks Embiid's game won't translate to the playoffs are just not paying attention. It already has. Now he might finally have the team that doesn't let him down.

Are you pulling these numbers out of the 4 game playoff series against Boston or his career averages? I assume its the former.

Career averages. His numbers were terrible in the 4 game series vs Boston and dragged his career numbers down a bit. His numbers in 2018-19 were absolutely unreal (+41.3 on/offs that postseason).

Just checked his advanced stats on BBall ref. His numbers are better than i thought but still not nearly as good as he is posting this season. Could be that he got much better but when i watch him play he does receive a lot of soft calls that wont be there in the playoffs. Easy calls forces the defense to play easier on you so it also affects your shooting numbers.

For instance his career playoff FT rate is 0,566 while his FT rate this season is an astounding 0,649. Shaqs career Ft rate is 0,578 and his PO FTR is 0,639 where he was basically hacked on purpose.

Embiids 2020 playoff FT rate was a crazy 0,797 though so maybe im wrong on this one.

Still he is a great player and a better playoff performer than i thought.

[DaPessimist]

I notice the OP conveniently forgot to talk about the other half of basketball.

[DrPampiloni]

Jokic is white and chubby...

Simple reason

He looks like a 7-foot version of the janitor from my elementary school. That’s my reason. Lol

This weird homoerotic turn was unexpected. But I guess basketball is also about AeStHeTiCs

[WHITE_HOT_HEAT]

Jokic is white and chubby...

Simple reason

He looks like a 7-foot version of the janitor from my elementary school. That’s my reason. Lol

This weird homoerotic turn was unexpected. But I guess basketball is also about AeStHeTiCs

Yup. People generally tend to hide the fact that we are all materialistic, hold prejudices and have a facade of fake morality.. The reason I laugh at all the moral outrage on what's wrong/right etc on Social Media..

I'm just simply stating what the real reason here. I myself prefer Jokic due to his playmaking ability, stamina/durability and the fact that he doesn't flop. Embiid is great too though.

[Bum Adebayo]

More importantly, why do most people feel the need to compare players all the time, when the only thing it will do is boring and predictable:
-80% of people will bring down the other player, especially the fans of a player's team will bring down the other with lame arguments most of the time. There is no point on hearing the opinion of said fan, 99% of the time he defends his player just because player is on his team, he is biased beyond repair and will do nothing to try to remove his bias.
-20% of the people will actually bring decent to good arguments as to why one player is better than the other, but will be eclipsed by the 80%.

The end result is players end up being underappreciated.

[KuruptedCav]

Draft position, market, east coast bias.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Lalouie]

because there's a premium on athleticism. there's a mistaken belief that athleticism has a higher ceiling, but all it is is it's showier

[SK21209]

Individual offense is more important than individual defense and Jokic is clearly a superior offensive player (and maybe the best offensive player in the league). However, and this is going to sound hyperbolic, but Jokic is worse defensively as a center than any other center to play significant minutes for a championship team since the turn of the century:

2020 Lakers - AD/Dwight/McGee
2019 Lakers - Gasol/Ibaka
2018 Warriors - Green/Cousins
2017 - Green/McGee
2016 - Thompson/Mozgov
2015 - Bogut/Green
2014 - Duncan/Splitter
2013 - Bosh/Birdman
2012 - Bosh/Birdman
2011 - Chandler
2010 - Gasol/Bynum
2009 - Gasol/Bynum
2008 - Garnett/Perkins
2007 - Duncan/Oberto
2006 - Shaq/Mourning
2005 - Duncan/Mohammed
2004 - B. Wallace/R. Wallace
2003 - Duncan/Robinson
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq

Poor defensive centers have become even easier to exploit in 2021, where there's a LOT more pick-and-roll and mismatch hunting than there was in the 2000's where you'd just throw it into the post and your other big was also clogging the lane. It's almost disqualifying to have a poor defensive center in 2021. Now Embiid isn't particularly versatile defensively, but he's just so much better than Jokic on that end. For that reason alone, I think I'd rather have Embiid just because I'm still getting elite level offense along with the strong defense. And I'm saying this while firmly believing Jokic is the best offensive center since Shaq and the best passing big man of all time.

[eathb_au]

Embiid 0-4 Boston no Simmons even though he averaged 30-10 on elite true shooting percentages. Why? Because defense matters and Embiid didn’t play good defense (neither did the Sixers team)

Embiid struggles offensively against raptors 2019 but elite defensively.

That’s why you can’t pay attention to offensive numbers.

The real question for Denver fans is why they struggled to barley beat lower seeded teams even with home court in 2019. Spurs 4-3 and than lost to Portland 3-4.

Again in the bubble 4-3 jazz and than another 4-3 vs clippers (more due to Murray). Than 1-4 lakers.

What’s gonna to happen with Jokic in the playoffs this year without Murray. They are most likely staring at a matchup vs lakers. With home court. Nuggets may make it 1-4. Without home court and healthy lakers. Nuggets looking at 0-4 as well. Are Jokic supporters gonna to make excuses why they gonna to get bounced in the first round playoffs? Of course they will. They will likely point to Jokic 30-10-6 numbers vs lakers in a 1-4 lost and say. Look at those great stats. And Murray was hurt.

What is the point of this comment? Expecting the Nuggets to beat the Lakers at the moment was like expecting the young LeBron Cavs (think Mo Williams as second best player) to beat the Celtics/Spurs/Lakers in the playoffs back in the day... No one expects it because their team/supporting cast is so bad despite having arguably the league MVP.

I think young LeBron and current Jokic's situation are similar, MVPesque numbers but on a really really bad team with no secondary all star, just a cast of roleplayers with maybe 1 guy that might put up all star numbers once every five games. If there are posters that don't want Jokic to win a championship, they will need to wish that he will never pair with a second all star in his career. Jokic himself has actually hinted that he'd like to pair with Luka one day FWIW.

Jokic + Murray playing a star level in the bubble = WCF trip. Now it's just Jokic on his own.

[TTP]

Embiid 0-4 Boston no Simmons even though he averaged 30-10 on elite true shooting percentages. Why? Because defense matters and Embiid didn’t play good defense (neither did the Sixers team)

Embiid struggles offensively against raptors 2019 but elite defensively.

That’s why you can’t pay attention to offensive numbers.

The real question for Denver fans is why they struggled to barley beat lower seeded teams even with home court in 2019. Spurs 4-3 and than lost to Portland 3-4.

Again in the bubble 4-3 jazz and than another 4-3 vs clippers (more due to Murray). Than 1-4 lakers.

What’s gonna to happen with Jokic in the playoffs this year without Murray. They are most likely staring at a matchup vs lakers. With home court. Nuggets may make it 1-4. Without home court and healthy lakers. Nuggets looking at 0-4 as well. Are Jokic supporters gonna to make excuses why they gonna to get bounced in the first round playoffs? Of course they will. They will likely point to Jokic 30-10-6 numbers vs lakers in a 1-4 lost and say. Look at those great stats. And Murray was hurt.

What is the point of this comment? Expecting the Nuggets to beat the Lakers at the moment was like expecting the young LeBron Cavs (think Mo Williams as second best player) to beat the Celtics/Spurs/Lakers in the playoffs back in the day... No one expects it because their team/supporting cast is so bad despite having arguably the league MVP.

I think young LeBron and current Jokic's situation are similar, MVPesque numbers but on a really really bad team with no secondary all star, just a cast of roleplayers with maybe 1 guy that might put up all star numbers once every five games. If there are posters that don't want Jokic to win a championship, they will need to wish that he will never pair with a second all star in his career. Jokic himself has actually hinted that he'd like to pair with Luka one day FWIW.

Jokic + Murray playing a star level in the bubble= WCF trip. Now it's just Jokic on his own.

They're both excellent players and Jokic should deservedly win MVP this season but is this statement true?

-The Nuggets were outscored in the first round and nearly lost the series and they were outscored in the playoffs overall

-The Nuggets were outscored when each of Jokic and Murray were on the floor for the playoffs overall

-The Nuggets were better when Jokic was on the bench than when he was on the floor (though they were massively better when Murray was on the floor)

Jokic had great counting stats and offensive efficiency, but they gave up 119.0 points per 100 while he was on the floor last postseason, with a -3.5 net on-court performance and a -3.0 on/off. That's not playing at a star level last season (they literally lost the minutes he was on the floor), though he's more than capable of it going forward.

[rapstarter]

They do?

[draftnightsuit]

Probably because Embiid is better than Jokic.

[Myth]

I'm glad I don't really have stakes in either of these players to the point of feeling I have to pick a side. I love watching both of their games, and would be happy watching either become a champion.