Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic?

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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#61 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:38 pm

People do value playoff performance extremely highly, and Embiid isn't getting a permanent exemption from that.

While Joker has been a playoff hero so far in his career, Embiid has had a rockier start. While his defense has translated in the playoffs, his offense has been clunky, predictable and easy to game plan against as long as you have the personnel. Marc Gasol humiliated him 2 years ago. He's always been underequipped or injured or sick or out of shape, and as a result he's shot 43% in the playoffs so far.

However, players (in fan/media perception) get a temporary exemption when they make a big leap in production. Joel has been so much better on offense this year, that people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that jumper stays solid, it's hard to imagine Joel struggling again, especially with the potential of weak and/or froncourts defending him: Brooklyn, Boston, Miami, Charlotte etc. It isn't unreasonable to predict a big playoffs from the big man. However, if Joel disapoints for any reason (even if it's sort of unfair, like he gets injured again or something), the Embiid critics will explode exponentially. So if you're a Joel hater, and think he's going to fail in the playoffs, just wait for that because there's no point complaining when Embiid stock is so high. However, if Joel fixes his playoff reputation this year, the Joker vs. Embiid debate will have more permanent legs to stand on. Joel is always going to be a more impactful defender. Joker is always going to have some big edges on offense. The playoff gap is currently Joker's winning argument.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#62 » by gorz » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:54 pm

SK21209 wrote:Individual offense is more important than individual defense and Jokic is clearly a superior offensive player (and maybe the best offensive player in the league). However, and this is going to sound hyperbolic, but Jokic is worse defensively as a center than any other center to play significant minutes for a championship team since the turn of the century:

2020 Lakers - AD/Dwight/McGee
2019 Lakers - Gasol/Ibaka
2018 Warriors - Green/Cousins
2017 - Green/McGee
2016 - Thompson/Mozgov
2015 - Bogut/Green
2014 - Duncan/Splitter
2013 - Bosh/Birdman
2012 - Bosh/Birdman
2011 - Chandler
2010 - Gasol/Bynum
2009 - Gasol/Bynum
2008 - Garnett/Perkins
2007 - Duncan/Oberto
2006 - Shaq/Mourning
2005 - Duncan/Mohammed
2004 - B. Wallace/R. Wallace
2003 - Duncan/Robinson
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq

Poor defensive centers have become even easier to exploit in 2021, where there's a LOT more pick-and-roll and mismatch hunting than there was in the 2000's where you'd just throw it into the post and your other big was also clogging the lane. It's almost disqualifying to have a poor defensive center in 2021. Now Embiid isn't particularly versatile defensively, but he's just so much better than Jokic on that end. For that reason alone, I think I'd rather have Embiid just because I'm still getting elite level offense along with the strong defense. And I'm saying this while firmly believing Jokic is the best offensive center since Shaq and the best passing big man of all time.




Many ppl harp about defense to argue their case for why x player is better than y player even when the other player is a better offensive player but especially when both are similar in offensive production the defense gives the edge. So why isn't Embiid>Jokic. Embiid are Jokic are very close offensively but Embiid is miles ahead defensively.

This isn't unanimous by any means but this seems to be sentiment shared by alot on this board. Some examples..

Lebron>Kd
Lebron>Steph
Kawhi>Harden
Simmons>Trae
Duncan>Dirk
KG>Barkley
Gobert>Towns
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#63 » by RoyceDa59 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:03 pm

Embiid is more physically dominating, but I think Jokic is overall more talented player and a better pillar to build a franchise around due to health and character.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#64 » by TTP » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:05 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:People do value playoff performance extremely highly, and Embiid isn't getting a permanent exemption from that.

While Joker has been a playoff hero so far in his career, Embiid has had a rockier start. While his defense has translated in the playoffs, his offense has been clunky, predictable and easy to game plan against as long as you have the personnel. Marc Gasol humiliated him 2 years ago. He's always been underequipped or injured or sick or out of shape, and as a result he's shot 43% in the playoffs so far.

However, players (in fan/media perception) get a temporary exemption when they make a big leap in production. Joel has been so much better on offense this year, that people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that jumper stays solid, it's hard to imagine Joel struggling again, especially with the potential of weak and/or froncourts defending him: Brooklyn, Boston, Miami, Charlotte etc. It isn't unreasonable to predict a big playoffs from the big man. However, if Joel disapoints for any reason (even if it's sort of unfair, like he gets injured again or something), the Embiid critics will explode exponentially. So if you're a Joel hater, and think he's going to fail in the playoffs, just wait for that because there's no point complaining when Embiid stock is so high. However, if Joel fixes his playoff reputation this year, the Joker vs. Embiid debate will have more permanent legs to stand on. Joel is always going to be a more impactful defender. Joker is always going to have some big edges on offense. The playoff gap is currently Joker's winning argument.


The playoff gap is a myth. The Nuggets advancing further in the past than the Sixers doesn't mean Jokic has outperformed Embiid - it just means that the Nuggets have advanced further than the Sixers. Basketball is a team game where one player can only do so much, and a player has minimal to no control over what happens when he's off the floor.

People can cite counting stats and offensive efficiency as arguments in Jokic's favor. Those things are great and might indicate winning basketball. You know what is a better indicator of winning basketball? Actually winning the minutes that you're on the floor, and the margin that you win by - literally the win condition of basketball.

Embiid has both won his minutes by a bigger margin than Jokic and he's also outperformed his team by a bigger margin as well. Jokic lost the minutes he was on the floor the year they went to the WCF but because the Nuggets performed better while he was on the bench, they advanced. The Sixers performed terribly with Embiid off the floor versus the Raptors, and they didn't advance. Marc Gasol defended Embiid as well as anyone, but the Sixers still destroyed the Raptors in Embiid's minutes that series.

Embiid has been better in the playoffs to date than Jokic has. See my previous posts in the thread for more evidence.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#65 » by Sgt Major » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:20 pm

Lol get serious
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#66 » by Winsome Gerbil » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:23 pm

youngthegiant wrote:Media and casuals almost always say winning/playoff performance is the end all be all for deciding which players are the best.
Well Jokic's playoff resume is head and shoulders above what Embiid has done. It makes zero sense...Jokic's playoff numbers are better...he's gone farther in the post season...like why...why is this even a debate. Jokic is clearly the best Center in the world and it's driving me insane that so many people still believe Embiid is better. Skip Bayless can't even remember his name :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Why can't Jokic get a fair shake..

Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%

Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%


There's nothing "clear" about it, nor are attempts to provide selected numbers very helpful except as partisanship.

In a season in which you have 2 top centers, one playing for a 39 win team, the other for a 37 win team, one carrying a 31.2PER and .284 WS/48, while the other carries a 31.5PER and .304 WS/48...there's nothing clear about it.

It especially is unclear when one of them anchors the #2 defense in the league, while the other is a notably poor defender on an entirely mediocre (15th in defense) Nuggets team.

About the only thing that is clear is that Embiid has played in 39 games while Jokic has played in 57, which may give the edge to Jokic in season ending awards.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#67 » by Bergmaniac » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:27 pm

I love Jokic, but he sure has some of the most insufferable fanboys on this board and this thread is a prime example.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#68 » by Peregrine01 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:29 pm

Watching Embiid last night, it was a bit surprising to see him struggle with an aggressive double and without a guy to create for him. Sixers offense really died down the stretch when they tried to force-feed him the ball. With Jokic, the complaint with him is that he isn't force-fed the ball enough and he's probably the most dangerous player to get double-teamed. I think his ability to play-make is a big reason why he's been more robust than Embiid in the playoffs.

Embiid is better on defense but I don't think that can outweigh the advantages that Jokic has on offense and plain availability.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#69 » by TTP » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:30 pm

Sgt Major wrote:Lol get serious


What a well-reasoned, nuanced counterargument. I'd say you can do better, but so far, the evidence indicates the opposite.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#70 » by Sgt Major » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:36 pm

TTP wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:Lol get serious


What a well-reasoned, nuanced counterargument. I'd say you can do better, but so far, the evidence indicates the opposite.



No sane person would seriously discuss this claim:

TTP wrote:Jokic lost the minutes he was on the floor the year they went to the WCF but because the Nuggets performed better while he was on the bench, they advanced.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#71 » by yannisk » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:17 pm

gorz wrote:
Many ppl harp about defense to argue their case for why x player is better than y player even when the other player is a better offensive player but especially when both are similar in offensive production the defense gives the edge. So why isn't Embiid>Jokic. Embiid are Jokic are very close offensively but Embiid is miles ahead defensively.


There are not that close offensively. Jokic is the more efficient scorer and there is a huge gap in passing.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#72 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:22 pm

I mean can it be as simple as, these are the two big men in the game by a sizeable gap. And the gap between them is very small, so it can come down to just personal preference on style of play.

Im a huge Jokic fan and Id pick him over Embiid with no hesitation. But I also get why someone would choose Embiid, its really not too hard to understand.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#73 » by TTP » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:35 pm

Sgt Major wrote:
TTP wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:Lol get serious


What a well-reasoned, nuanced counterargument. I'd say you can do better, but so far, the evidence indicates the opposite.



No sane person would seriously discuss this claim:

TTP wrote:Jokic lost the minutes he was on the floor the year they went to the WCF but because the Nuggets performed better while he was on the bench, they advanced.


You mean that fact? They got outscored when he was on the floor that playoffs.

They scored 115.5 per 100 and gave up 119.0 per 100 with Jokic on the floor that playoffs, meaning they were outscored by 3.5.

They scored 107.4 per 100 and gave up 107.9 per 100 with Jokic on the bench that playoffs, meaning they were outscored by 0.5.

You win a basketball game by outscoring your opponents. Specifically, you need to score more points than you give up on the other end. The Nuggets didn't do that with Jokic on the floor during those playoffs. They didn't do it with Jokic off the floor either, but it was significantly closer. Hell, they even took Jokic off the floor in crunch time of game 7 vs the Jazz.

The main issue here is that you're unwilling to be objective and make a well-reasoned argument using data to support your claims. You're clearly a Jokic fan so you're unwilling to be objective, so you resort to comments like "get serious" and "no sane person would seriously discuss this claim". If you could do better than that, you would, but you clearly are not capable.

Meanwhile, I've stated multiple times that I think Jokic should be MVP, that several others should be considered at or above the level of Embiid this year (Gobert, LeBron, Curry, etc). I've also stated that Embiid's numbers were awful last year, and I've criticized countless Sixers players.

If you were capable of being objective rather than a biased fanboy, we might actually be able to have a reasonable discussion.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#74 » by cupcakesnake » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:41 pm

TTP wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:People do value playoff performance extremely highly, and Embiid isn't getting a permanent exemption from that.

While Joker has been a playoff hero so far in his career, Embiid has had a rockier start. While his defense has translated in the playoffs, his offense has been clunky, predictable and easy to game plan against as long as you have the personnel. Marc Gasol humiliated him 2 years ago. He's always been underequipped or injured or sick or out of shape, and as a result he's shot 43% in the playoffs so far.

However, players (in fan/media perception) get a temporary exemption when they make a big leap in production. Joel has been so much better on offense this year, that people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that jumper stays solid, it's hard to imagine Joel struggling again, especially with the potential of weak and/or froncourts defending him: Brooklyn, Boston, Miami, Charlotte etc. It isn't unreasonable to predict a big playoffs from the big man. However, if Joel disapoints for any reason (even if it's sort of unfair, like he gets injured again or something), the Embiid critics will explode exponentially. So if you're a Joel hater, and think he's going to fail in the playoffs, just wait for that because there's no point complaining when Embiid stock is so high. However, if Joel fixes his playoff reputation this year, the Joker vs. Embiid debate will have more permanent legs to stand on. Joel is always going to be a more impactful defender. Joker is always going to have some big edges on offense. The playoff gap is currently Joker's winning argument.


The playoff gap is a myth. The Nuggets advancing further in the past than the Sixers doesn't mean Jokic has outperformed Embiid - it just means that the Nuggets have advanced further than the Sixers. Basketball is a team game where one player can only do so much, and a player has minimal to no control over what happens when he's off the floor.

People can cite counting stats and offensive efficiency as arguments in Jokic's favor. Those things are great and might indicate winning basketball. You know what is a better indicator of winning basketball? Actually winning the minutes that you're on the floor, and the margin that you win by - literally the win condition of basketball.

Embiid has both won his minutes by a bigger margin than Jokic and he's also outperformed his team by a bigger margin as well. Jokic lost the minutes he was on the floor the year they went to the WCF but because the Nuggets performed better while he was on the bench, they advanced. The Sixers performed terribly with Embiid off the floor versus the Raptors, and they didn't advance. Marc Gasol defended Embiid as well as anyone, but the Sixers still destroyed the Raptors in Embiid's minutes that series.

Embiid has been better in the playoffs to date than Jokic has. See my previous posts in the thread for more evidence.


I don't really know how to respond if your argument for Embiid>Jokic is: treating on/off data like it tells the whole story and is an open and shut case. I certainly believe in the value of Joel Embiid's defense for Phili in the 2019 playoffs, but the Sixers not having a backup center is the main reason the on/off was so drastic, imo. That doesn't make Embiid better in my mind. I also don't believe that the Sixers were better with Embiid off the floor in last years playoffs (since you're bringing up on/off, Joel was a -32 in the series against Boston in 2020). Should Phili have benched Embiid last year, and Denver should have benched Jokic?

I'm not really sure where you want to go with this. Should we value on/off numbers so purely that we don't even debate these players or watch the games? On/off is definitely a useful metric. I look at it, and take it into consideration. It's helpful to understand what might be happening in a game. But pointing to it as evidence that Joel has actually outplayed Jokic in the playoffs feels hollow.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#75 » by TTP » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:44 pm

yannisk wrote:
gorz wrote:
Many ppl harp about defense to argue their case for why x player is better than y player even when the other player is a better offensive player but especially when both are similar in offensive production the defense gives the edge. So why isn't Embiid>Jokic. Embiid are Jokic are very close offensively but Embiid is miles ahead defensively.


There are not that close offensively. Jokic is the more efficient scorer and there is a huge gap in passing.


Jokic is as a more efficient scorer but there's also a substantial difference in usage. The greater the usage, the harder it's going to be to maintain efficiency. Embiid's been one of the highest usage players since he came into the league and he's #2 in the NBA this season.

Ultimately though, the best argument is that Jokic has led a better offense than Embiid. The Nuggets offense with Jokic on the floor this season is an unreal 122.5, which has to be up there for the highest I've seen. The Sixers offense with Embiid on the floor is an elite 119.3.

Both are substantial offensive engines this season, but a Jokic-led offense has been on a higher level.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#76 » by TTP » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:53 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
TTP wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:People do value playoff performance extremely highly, and Embiid isn't getting a permanent exemption from that.

While Joker has been a playoff hero so far in his career, Embiid has had a rockier start. While his defense has translated in the playoffs, his offense has been clunky, predictable and easy to game plan against as long as you have the personnel. Marc Gasol humiliated him 2 years ago. He's always been underequipped or injured or sick or out of shape, and as a result he's shot 43% in the playoffs so far.

However, players (in fan/media perception) get a temporary exemption when they make a big leap in production. Joel has been so much better on offense this year, that people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that jumper stays solid, it's hard to imagine Joel struggling again, especially with the potential of weak and/or froncourts defending him: Brooklyn, Boston, Miami, Charlotte etc. It isn't unreasonable to predict a big playoffs from the big man. However, if Joel disapoints for any reason (even if it's sort of unfair, like he gets injured again or something), the Embiid critics will explode exponentially. So if you're a Joel hater, and think he's going to fail in the playoffs, just wait for that because there's no point complaining when Embiid stock is so high. However, if Joel fixes his playoff reputation this year, the Joker vs. Embiid debate will have more permanent legs to stand on. Joel is always going to be a more impactful defender. Joker is always going to have some big edges on offense. The playoff gap is currently Joker's winning argument.


The playoff gap is a myth. The Nuggets advancing further in the past than the Sixers doesn't mean Jokic has outperformed Embiid - it just means that the Nuggets have advanced further than the Sixers. Basketball is a team game where one player can only do so much, and a player has minimal to no control over what happens when he's off the floor.

People can cite counting stats and offensive efficiency as arguments in Jokic's favor. Those things are great and might indicate winning basketball. You know what is a better indicator of winning basketball? Actually winning the minutes that you're on the floor, and the margin that you win by - literally the win condition of basketball.

Embiid has both won his minutes by a bigger margin than Jokic and he's also outperformed his team by a bigger margin as well. Jokic lost the minutes he was on the floor the year they went to the WCF but because the Nuggets performed better while he was on the bench, they advanced. The Sixers performed terribly with Embiid off the floor versus the Raptors, and they didn't advance. Marc Gasol defended Embiid as well as anyone, but the Sixers still destroyed the Raptors in Embiid's minutes that series.

Embiid has been better in the playoffs to date than Jokic has. See my previous posts in the thread for more evidence.


I don't really know how to respond if your argument for Embiid>Jokic is: treating on/off data like it tells the whole story and is an open and shut case. I certainly believe in the value of Joel Embiid's defense for Phili in the 2019 playoffs, but the Sixers not having a backup center is the main reason the on/off was so drastic, imo. That doesn't make Embiid better in my mind. I also don't believe that the Sixers were better with Embiid off the floor in last years playoffs (since you're bringing up on/off, Joel was a -32 in the series against Boston in 2020). Should Phili have benched Embiid last year, and Denver should have benched Jokic?

I'm not really sure where you want to go with this. Should we value on/off numbers so purely that we don't even debate these players or watch the games? On/off is definitely a useful metric. I look at it, and take it into consideration. It's helpful to understand what might be happening in a game. But pointing to it as evidence that Joel has actually outplayed Jokic in the playoffs feels hollow.


It's not an argument for Embiid > Jokic. It's an argument that Embiid has been better than Jokic in the playoffs for their careers to date.

On/off data is a better story than the "Jokic advanced further in the playoffs" story that seems to be the basis for the difference in playoff perception. I referenced more than on/off data though - specifically on court data, which is significantly important.

The bolded is true for the on/off data, which is why the on data was a crucial part of my argument. The Sixers were +90 in 237 minutes with Embiid on the floor that series and -109 in the 99 minutes he sat. If you're going to evaluate a player's performance, you should be evaluating the minutes that he was on the court, and when Embiid was on the court, the Sixers dominated. Yet people talk about "Embiid's shaky playoff history", completely ignoring his career on-court dominance. The Sixers are literally +7.0 with him on the court in the playoffs for his entire career - that's an elite number considering it's postseason only versus good to great teams.

The second bolded is a completely different argument. Embiid wasn't very good last postseason - his career numbers are still elite in spite of it. That doesn't mean I think either player should have been benched. My argument is about which elite player has outperformed which for their careers to date, not that either player should have been benched in favor of inferior players.

We should for sure value on/off numbers in conjunction with on court data and a bunch of other stuff FAR more than people currently do. I mean, most people reference counting stats such as points/rebounds/assists, wins/losses, and even scoring efficiency (which is slightly better) to judge players all the time, but that stuff correlates far less with player impact than on/off data does. Yet I rarely see much pushback for that stuff than I get when I bring up on/off data, despite on/offs clearly being superior if you were only going to choose one thing to represent a player's performance (which you shouldn't do, but people do all the time without much criticism).
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#77 » by Wigginstime » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:58 pm

TTP wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:People do value playoff performance extremely highly, and Embiid isn't getting a permanent exemption from that.

While Joker has been a playoff hero so far in his career, Embiid has had a rockier start. While his defense has translated in the playoffs, his offense has been clunky, predictable and easy to game plan against as long as you have the personnel. Marc Gasol humiliated him 2 years ago. He's always been underequipped or injured or sick or out of shape, and as a result he's shot 43% in the playoffs so far.

However, players (in fan/media perception) get a temporary exemption when they make a big leap in production. Joel has been so much better on offense this year, that people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that jumper stays solid, it's hard to imagine Joel struggling again, especially with the potential of weak and/or froncourts defending him: Brooklyn, Boston, Miami, Charlotte etc. It isn't unreasonable to predict a big playoffs from the big man. However, if Joel disapoints for any reason (even if it's sort of unfair, like he gets injured again or something), the Embiid critics will explode exponentially. So if you're a Joel hater, and think he's going to fail in the playoffs, just wait for that because there's no point complaining when Embiid stock is so high. However, if Joel fixes his playoff reputation this year, the Joker vs. Embiid debate will have more permanent legs to stand on. Joel is always going to be a more impactful defender. Joker is always going to have some big edges on offense. The playoff gap is currently Joker's winning argument.


The playoff gap is a myth.


This has been posted multiple times, but you don't seem to want to admit it:
Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%, PER: 21
Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%, PER 27
The difference in scoring efficiency is incredible.
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#78 » by NO-KG-AI » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:00 pm

I don’t think the media thinks about or cares about most of these comparisons nearly as much as people want to believe


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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#79 » by TTP » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:02 pm

Wigginstime wrote:
TTP wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:People do value playoff performance extremely highly, and Embiid isn't getting a permanent exemption from that.

While Joker has been a playoff hero so far in his career, Embiid has had a rockier start. While his defense has translated in the playoffs, his offense has been clunky, predictable and easy to game plan against as long as you have the personnel. Marc Gasol humiliated him 2 years ago. He's always been underequipped or injured or sick or out of shape, and as a result he's shot 43% in the playoffs so far.

However, players (in fan/media perception) get a temporary exemption when they make a big leap in production. Joel has been so much better on offense this year, that people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that jumper stays solid, it's hard to imagine Joel struggling again, especially with the potential of weak and/or froncourts defending him: Brooklyn, Boston, Miami, Charlotte etc. It isn't unreasonable to predict a big playoffs from the big man. However, if Joel disapoints for any reason (even if it's sort of unfair, like he gets injured again or something), the Embiid critics will explode exponentially. So if you're a Joel hater, and think he's going to fail in the playoffs, just wait for that because there's no point complaining when Embiid stock is so high. However, if Joel fixes his playoff reputation this year, the Joker vs. Embiid debate will have more permanent legs to stand on. Joel is always going to be a more impactful defender. Joker is always going to have some big edges on offense. The playoff gap is currently Joker's winning argument.


The playoff gap is a myth.


This has been posted multiple times, but you don't seem to want to admit it:
Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%, PER: 21
Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%, PER 27
The difference in scoring efficiency is incredible.


Admit what? You're listing a bunch of stats that might correlate with winning, and I've listed stats that correlate significantly more. Those stats don't acknowledge defense at all, and there's a mammoth difference in the defenses each player has anchored in the playoffs. The Nuggets DRTG with Jokic on the floor that postseason was 119.0 - that number would be the worst defense in the NBA this season. The Sixers DRTG with Embiid on the floor in 2018-19 was 95.7. That number would be the best defense in the NBA this season (by far). It's a huge difference in player value that the stats you quoted don't reflect at all.

The stat that correlates most with winning is whether your team outscored your opponents when you're on the floor- that's literally the win condition!

On court data in conjunction with on/off data is far more valuable than all of that stuff you quoted.

The Sixers have outscored their opponents by more with Embiid on the floor in his playoff career than the Nuggets have with Jokic. Embiid's career playoff on/offs are better than Jokic's as well.
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Wigginstime
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Re: Why do most people still think Embiid is better than Jokic? 

Post#80 » by Wigginstime » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:05 pm

TTP wrote:
Wigginstime wrote:
TTP wrote:
The playoff gap is a myth.


This has been posted multiple times, but you don't seem to want to admit it:
Career Playoff stats

Joel Embiid: 22.3 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2.9 APG, 3.7 TO 43 FG%, 28 3P%, PER: 21
Nikola Jokic: 24.7 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 6.9 APG, 3.0 TO 51 FG%, 41 3P%, PER 27
The difference in scoring efficiency is incredible.


Admit what? You're listing a bunch of stats that might correlate with winning, and I've listed stats that correlate significantly more. Those stats don't acknowledge defense at all, and there's a mammoth difference in the defenses each player has anchored in the playoffs.

The stat that correlates most with winning is whether your team outscored your opponents when you're on the floor- that's literally the win condition!

On court data in conjunction with on/off data is far more valuable than all of that stuff you quoted.

The Sixers have outscored their opponents by more with Embiid on the floor in his playoff career than the Nuggets have with Jokic. Embiid's career playoff on/offs are better than Jokic's as well.


You are cherry picking stats. But if you insist on using on/off stats

Career Playoff BPM:
Jokic: 9.3
Embiid: 4.1

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