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dhsilv2 wrote:

Couch Potato wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
Can you support the argument that there's less depth? Cause that doesn't make any sense given top players are playing a few less minutes a game. And scoring as a percentage of team points has been trending down through the research I've done ( through 2015).

Well one and done doesn't help most drafts from how far back. Lack of great talent each year in the drafts.

And straight from high school was working? We were having high school kids coming in since KG in what 94 93? Then you had Kobe and Oneal coming in 96 and then the flood gates opened. Before that we'd just had multi expansion periods where the league was growing super fast and diluting the talent. This is about as talent as the league has been in terms of depth going back to at least the 1980's.

I said no to one and done. Should be two years somewhere possibly three. Weak drafts get stale.

dhsilv2 wrote:Also it's not THAT up per say.

You had 7 guys do it in 1989 in a league of 25 teams and you have 10 doing it this year in a league of 30. Is going from 1 guy on 28% of teams to 1 guy on 33% of teams THAT big a jump? Or 8 guys in 2006 (~27%).

1989 Pace - 100.6
2006 Pace - 90.5
2021 Pace - 99.2

So I mean it's like 2 more guys doing...it's not that big a difference to a lot of other seasons in different eras. Yeah, I could find years with way less guys too but again this isn't something that's drastically outside the norm.

Excellent post.
Posts like these + the threads/posts one on AVG FTs progressively going down over the last few years show how misguided most of the talking points related to basketball are in media and among the casuals/general populace.

It's not about pace - stars today are simply much more ball dominant than ever. Teams try to maximalize top player's impact by giving him the ball as much as possible and give him space. It's a matter of trends in basketball, not pace.

Also, saying that it's because of league's talent isn't an answer. If the league's talent improved, then defenders are better as well.

Galloisdaman wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Galloisdaman wrote:
Looks to me using your numbers that a dozen (12) is a lot.

But there are 10 this year...why are you adding 2 more?

I said around 26 in my original post. I averaged up for Tatum at 25.8 and KL at 25.7

10 would still be a lot

1985 would then show up as the best year at a glance with 8 guys in a 23 team league. 34% of the teams with a ~26 ppg guy.

Couch Potato wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Couch Potato wrote:
Well one and done doesn't help most drafts from how far back. Lack of great talent each year in the drafts.

And straight from high school was working? We were having high school kids coming in since KG in what 94 93? Then you had Kobe and Oneal coming in 96 and then the flood gates opened. Before that we'd just had multi expansion periods where the league was growing super fast and diluting the talent. This is about as talent as the league has been in terms of depth going back to at least the 1980's.

I said no to one and done. Should be two years somewhere possibly three. Weak drafts get stale.

When were the drafts so much better? Like give me a 7 year period that's so clearly better...

70sFan wrote:It's not about pace - stars today are simply much more ball dominant than ever. Teams try to maximalize top player's impact by giving him the ball as much as possible and give him space. It's a matter of trends in basketball, not pace.

Also, saying that it's because of league's talent isn't an answer. If the league's talent improved, then defenders are better as well.

Talent plays a role because you have more shooters who can create space for iso scorers. It's rules, analytics, pace, and talent all coming together. And as I've pointed out, it's not even meaningfully more common this year. Similar years happened through a good chunk of the 80's just having less teams made the count itself a bit smaller.

Because the nba sucks now and no 1 is allowed to play defense.

they allow carries, travels, push offs and moving screens and eliminated hand checking. It's by design. Players aren't more skilled. They're just now encouraged to break the rules with no repercussions.

dhsilv2 wrote:Also it's not THAT up per say.

You had 7 guys do it in 1989 in a league of 25 teams and you have 10 doing it this year in a league of 30. Is going from 1 guy on 28% of teams to 1 guy on 33% of teams THAT big a jump? Or 8 guys in 2006 (~27%).

1989 Pace - 100.6
2006 Pace - 90.5
2021 Pace - 99.2

So I mean it's like 2 more guys doing...it's not that big a difference to a lot of other seasons in different eras. Yeah, I could find years with way less guys too but again this isn't something that's drastically outside the norm.

This is definitely a good point, however I would point out the following to consider:

the 7 guys who did in in 1989 averaged 38.5 minutes per game. The ones doing it this year average 34.6 minutes per game. You've got 16 qualified players this year averaging 35+ per 100 poss. In 2019 you had two players exceed 35pts per 100 poss. And players this year are doing it on much higher efficiency. Beyond players being more skilled a lot of it has to do with better coaching/strategies and rules changes, including heavier emphasis on freedom of movement (do they even call moving screens anymore?).

Pace has been the same the last 3 or 4 years, so that's not all of it by any means the last few years. Seems to me its just further evolution of the rule changes, specifically toward smallball and perimeter shooting the last few.

Faster pace.
More possessions.
More 3's.
Less defense.

WHITE_HOT_HEAT wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:Also it's not THAT up per say.

You had 7 guys do it in 1989 in a league of 25 teams and you have 10 doing it this year in a league of 30. Is going from 1 guy on 28% of teams to 1 guy on 33% of teams THAT big a jump? Or 8 guys in 2006 (~27%).

1989 Pace - 100.6
2006 Pace - 90.5
2021 Pace - 99.2

So I mean it's like 2 more guys doing...it's not that big a difference to a lot of other seasons in different eras. Yeah, I could find years with way less guys too but again this isn't something that's drastically outside the norm.

Excellent post.
Posts like these + the threads/posts one on AVG FTs progressively going down over the last few years show how misguided most of the talking points related to basketball are in media and among the casuals/general populace.

Not really. It's generally accepted that the 80's was faster pace and less defensive as well. People who complain about the direction of the modern league usually complain about too many 3's and weak fouls on the perimeter; neither of which were problems in the 80's.

I don't think people have an issue with faster pace and less defense (overall). People don't like watching players get bailed out by weak foul calls while taking their 10th 3pnt shot of the game.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Galloisdaman wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
But there are 10 this year...why are you adding 2 more?

I said around 26 in my original post. I averaged up for Tatum at 25.8 and KL at 25.7

10 would still be a lot

1985 would then show up as the best year at a glance with 8 guys in a 23 team league. 34% of the teams with a ~26 ppg guy.

8 would be a lot as well. I was just curious why 12 now. Feels like 25 is the new 22 in a way.

Lets see what happens next year

I think the environment is too different to make a full judgement. Teams don't have time to practice, gameplan, etc. Players are tired. Then you have them playing in empty buildings. Lets see what happens when they are back in front of capacity crowds. The energy will turn back up on defense some and then you have the added pressure of actually making shots in front of people.

Wait until all the fans come back I guarantee a lot of these guys wont be shooting lights on on the road.

You get free throws for jumping into a guy and throwing it at the basket. Points a lot easier to come by these days.

It baffles me how people here are talking about offenses being more advanced. No, all I see it there being a lack of pride on the defensive end. Guys just want to go back and forth scoring on each other, it's boring to watch.

bwgood77 wrote:You get free throws for jumping into a guy and throwing it at the basket. Points a lot easier to come by these days.

Exactly, you have little dudes like Trae Young that flop all game and we're supposed to give him props for being a good player?

Because they are playing against the best defenders and athletes of all time, and it’s actually harder to draw fouls than eever!


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Marrrcuss wrote:The offense has evolved. So many guys are unguardable and guys that play great defense arent as valued as they once were.

Lol no you can’t breath on anyone that’s it everything else you said is just to hype these guys up.