MJ's record is not 6-0, its 6-15

[KrAzY3]

6/15 > 4/18. Heck, even Bird's 3/13 is greater than 4/18.

In a vacuum, i totally agree.

This is absolutely not close to being in a vacuum though. Like, no where close to being in one. Thats my issue.

That 15 includes the year Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games, it also includes the year he came out of retirement and only played 17 games, and it includes when he was 38 and 39.

So, just saying he's 6/15 by itself is already ignoring factors working against Jordan. Sure, LeBron has had some adverse circumstances as well but the way you worded it would make it sound like those issues are one sided and clearly they are not.

I don't think he gets 6 titles w/o time-off to rest his mind and body.

I read an article about how hard he worked as as baseball player. The blisters and so on. Resting his body... do you have any idea what the summers are like in the deep south? Dude wasn't resting he was learning a new sport.

[G35]

I think a lot of this comes down to people looking at ability instead of competitiveness.

LeBron might in terms of ability be a better basketball player than Jordan. He's certainly bigger and stronger, there's no doubt there. LeBron James had a playing weight at one point that was above Karl Malone's! LeBron actually exaggerated his height downward to try to seem smaller than he is, in shoes he's around 6'10. So we're talking a physical beast, size, speed, strength, athleticism. On top of that he can handle the ball like a point guard? It's insane and he legitimately might be the most physically gifted athlete the NBA has seen (Wilt Chamberlain is up there to).

So he goes out there and does amazing things because he's an amazing basketball specimen with unique talents. However, as a competitor? He's not on Jordan's level. Heck, he's not on Kobe's level, and he's not on Bill Russell's level as a competitor either. He's at the very top in terms of ability, but in terms of competitiveness he's might not be in the second tier either.

This is where people get hung up trying to make comparisons. They see what LeBron can do, and the guy can do about anything and say wow he's the best! Then because I think a lot of them missed the Jordan era, they don't appreciate the difference. I saw both play, and one was a an assassin. Always with the killer instinct. Jordan would beat his opponents through sheer will. To be fair LeBron does that, sometimes. Sometimes though we see 2011 Finals LeBron, the guy who finished third on the team in scoring. Doesn't even make it to a game seven against a team with Dirk and a bunch of nobodies. Sometimes we see the moping, focusing on an injury that wasn't apparent minutes earlier LeBron. Meanwhile Jordan went out there with the flu and murders the opponent.

That's the difference. Jordan was an assassin all the time. LeBron? It comes and goes, and admittedly when LeBron has it all together he's not just the best player on the court but may be the best player on any court ever. The problem is he isn't always that guy. That's the difference. That's why LeBron would go out and lose to inferior opponents and things like that (I'm a Magic fan but he had no business losing to Howard and Lewis). LeBron was always the best talent on the court, he wasn't always the best competitor.

This is what many fans do not take into account are those intangibles that separate similar talent. There has been amazing talent throughout the NBA's history but how they applied that talent is not equal.

Shaq is a great example. Shaq should have been the greatest player ever, but he didn't have the same drive...he was willing to throwaway games because he had an off/on switch.

I use to root against Jordan because I was a Barkley fan but I can't remember any series, where Jordan was not the best player in a series. When the Bulls played the Knicks, I always knew the Knicks would lose and that is because Jordan was the best player on the court. The Knicks would play them tough but it was almost like Jordan was toying with them.

It wasn't just that Jordan brought his best every game, he was the clear leader and the Bulls also brought it as a team.

Let me throw some names out there:
Dennis Hopson
Will Perdue
John Paxson
Jud Buechler
Randy Brown
Luc Longley
Bill Wennington

If you look at these guys statistically, they are the "no-talent" players that people are talking about would not make it in the NBA. Low information fans think it was just Mike, Scottie, and a little bit of Kukoc and the rest were scrubs. Untrue. If you watched those Bulls teams, it was the role players that killed you. These guys were not just one year rentals, they were there throughout the threepeats. All the time I would watch these role players kill teams in the playoffs.

Those Bulls teams were like machines...it was like playing the Terminator and Jordan was leading them.




That was Michael Jordan, every single time. Honestly, that was how Isiah Thomas was when he was leading the Pistons, that was how Larry Bird was when he was leading the Celtics.

They didn't like you, you weren't friends later on...this current generation does not understand that level of competition......

[yesh]

6/15 > 4/18. Heck, even Bird's 3/13 is greater than 4/18.

In a vacuum, i totally agree.

This is absolutely not close to being in a vacuum though. Like, no where close to being in one. Thats my issue.

That 15 includes the year Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games, it also includes the year he came out of retirement and only played 17 games, and it includes when he was 38 and 39.

So, just saying he's 6/15 by itself is already ignoring factors working against Jordan. Sure, LeBron has had some adverse circumstances as well but the way you worded it would make it sound like those issues are one sided and clearly they are not.

I don't think he gets 6 titles w/o time-off to rest his mind and body.

I read an article about how hard he worked as as baseball player. The blisters and so on. Resting his body... do you have any idea what the summers are like in the deep south? Dude wasn't resting he was learning a new sport.

Exactly, and they were travelling round the country on a bus, not an NBA leg-spaced private jet. No way was MJ recuperating.

[HEKTOR]

6-0 when it mattered the most (the finals).

MJ = the GOAT

/thread

[Sark]

Or until literally all his comp got old or washed up and he played on a super team in the talent deprived 90s.

There was more top end talent in the 90s than from 2005-2015.

Lebron's worst finals opposition is better than anyone Jordan saw. Imagine getting to see teams like... Drexler and who?, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley when you're playing on a glorified all star team with another HOF'er and a stacked surrounding cast.

Compared to the 73-9 Warriors, Pop's Spurs spearheaded by Tim Duncan, Dirk's Mavs and The Durant Warriors... Silly

Last year's Miami Heat are worse than anyone Jordan faced. They had a 2.59 SRS. The 2011 Mavs had a 4.41 SRS. Jordan beat better teams in the second round than those 2 teams.

[The4thHorseman]

6/15 > 4/18. Heck, even Bird's 3/13 is greater than 4/18.

In a vacuum, i totally agree.

This is absolutely not close to being in a vacuum though. Like, no where close to being in one. Thats my issue.

That 15 includes the year Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games, it also includes the year he came out of retirement and only played 17 games, and it includes when he was 38 and 39.

So, just saying he's 6/15 by itself is already ignoring factors working against Jordan. Sure, LeBron has had some adverse circumstances as well but the way you worded it would make it sound like those issues are one sided and clearly they are not.

I don't think he gets 6 titles w/o time-off to rest his mind and body.

I read an article about how hard he worked as as baseball player. The blisters and so on. Resting his body... do you have any idea what the summers are like in the deep south? Dude wasn't resting he was learning a new sport.

However hard he worked, it doesnt come close to an NBA season and postseason wear-n- tear.

He was free of any high expectations and stress with Baseball.

[GeorgeGervin]

6-0 when it mattered the most (the finals).

MJ = the GOAT

/thread

I don't see how the Finals matter more than the other rounds because if you lose, you go fishing no matter if it's the 1st round or the Finals.
Ignoring the other rounds is a loser thing.

[twyzted]

LMAO. I notice you only used teams from when Jordan was still learning how to play with his team, while ignoring the fact that the it was Lebron who was scared of the Celtics and that Durant had no choice but to join a super team since Lebron was already on his 2nd super team that he had formed.

Lebron is the neighborhood bully, when someone stands up to him he calls his superstar friends, and if that don't work he whines to the authorities and they help him out. Want proof, go watch the Nuggets Lakers game a couple of nights ago and the way it was reffed.

Jordan was relentless, every time he got beat he worked his ass off and came back better, until nobody could beat him. I don't remember a single time where he went public whining about having to earn a playoff spot or about not getting enough favoritism from the refs.

MJ quote after beating the Pistons in 1991

''We`ve taken the Good Boy image and walked away,'' Jordan added. ''We may have complained about it and told the teacher, or whatever, but we never tried to lower ourselves to that level. We didn't lose our cool or our heads. We maintained our poise.''

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-05-28-9102170643-story.html

1991 was the first year of the flagrant foul rule that Stern implemented. Safe to say MJ referring to "complaining to the teacher" is why the rule was put in place the following season. Basically outing himself for crying to Stern about the Pistons in previous seasons.

He literally went to the league and begged them to move the three point line closer. Also threatened to retire when the Bulls were considering trading his meal ticket Scottie away. These wives tales about MJ being some indestructible force of nobility and perseverance need to be put to bed.

"For three seasons beginning in 1994–95, the NBA attempted to address decreased scoring by shortening the distance of the line from 23 ft 9 in (7.24 m) (22 ft (6.71 m) at the corners) to a uniform 22 ft (6.71 m) around the basket."

Yes he went and cried to the nba when he was playing baseball. Just like your boy cried in 16 to get green suspended...

[twyzted]

There was more top end talent in the 90s than from 2005-2015.

Lebron's worst finals opposition is better than anyone Jordan saw. Imagine getting to see teams like... Drexler and who?, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley when you're playing on a glorified all star team with another HOF'er and a stacked surrounding cast.

Compared to the 73-9 Warriors, Pop's Spurs spearheaded by Tim Duncan, Dirk's Mavs and The Durant Warriors... Silly

Last year's Miami Heat are worse than anyone Jordan faced. They had a 2.59 SRS. The 2011 Mavs had a 4.41 SRS. Jordan beat better teams in the second round than those 2 teams.

Funny thing is put Jordan at the same age as butler on last years heat and he would have won 4-2

[Marrrcuss]

6/15 > 4/18. Heck, even Bird's 3/13 is greater than 4/18.

In a vacuum, i totally agree.

This is absolutely not close to being in a vacuum though. Like, no where close to being in one. Thats my issue.

That 15 includes the year Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games, it also includes the year he came out of retirement and only played 17 games, and it includes when he was 38 and 39.

So, just saying he's 6/15 by itself is already ignoring factors working against Jordan. Sure, LeBron has had some adverse circumstances as well but the way you worded it would make it sound like those issues are one sided and clearly they are not.

I don't think he gets 6 titles w/o time-off to rest his mind and body.

I read an article about how hard he worked as as baseball player. The blisters and so on. Resting his body... do you have any idea what the summers are like in the deep south? Dude wasn't resting he was learning a new sport.

I didnt campaign in either direction. Of course yall did though.

My vacuum includes watching those teams in the 80s and 90s and seeing how the game has evolved.

"circumstances", as you put it also would include expansion, and an overall lack of talent in the rest of the league

[Marrrcuss]

In a vacuum, i totally agree.

This is absolutely not close to being in a vacuum though. Like, no where close to being in one. Thats my issue.

That 15 includes the year Jordan was hurt and only played 18 games, it also includes the year he came out of retirement and only played 17 games, and it includes when he was 38 and 39.

So, just saying he's 6/15 by itself is already ignoring factors working against Jordan. Sure, LeBron has had some adverse circumstances as well but the way you worded it would make it sound like those issues are one sided and clearly they are not.

I don't think he gets 6 titles w/o time-off to rest his mind and body.

I read an article about how hard he worked as as baseball player. The blisters and so on. Resting his body... do you have any idea what the summers are like in the deep south? Dude wasn't resting he was learning a new sport.

Exactly, and they were travelling round the country on a bus, not an NBA leg-spaced private jet. No way was MJ recuperating.

Yet the celtics made it through the season in 86 with one road loss at Portland.

[OriginalRed]

Is it though?

Uh yes?

Who wouldn't take 6 championships in a 15 year stretch over 4 championships over a 17 year stretch?

Except it wasn't a 15yr stretch. It took him 19yrs to play 15 seasons. His 6 titles would look a lot more impressive if he had played consecutive seasons instead of taking time off (in his prime) after his first 3 titles. He avoided a lot of wear-n-tear on his body while taking those 22mos off. I don't think he gets 6 titles w/o time-off to rest his mind and body.

Well thats your opinion.

[SF_Warriors]

Or until literally all his comp got old or washed up and he played on a super team in the talent deprived 90s.

There was more top end talent in the 90s than from 2005-2015.

Lebron's worst finals opposition is better than anyone Jordan saw. Imagine getting to see teams like... Drexler and who?, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley when you're playing on a glorified all star team with another HOF'er and a stacked surrounding cast.

Compared to the 73-9 Warriors, Pop's Spurs spearheaded by Tim Duncan, Dirk's Mavs and The Durant Warriors... Silly

By old and washed up comp do you mean the 37-38 year old duncan and 35-36 year old manu spurs? Or how about the mavs with washed jkidd and marion? Or 35-36 yr old KG and 35-36 yr old Ray allen?

Not taking anything away from Bron, he is one of the goats if not the goat..but you cant bring up older competition with jordan and ignore it for bron. Bron also faced a very green okc team where their best player was 23 years old at the time.

[KrAzY3]

He was free of any high expectations and stress with Baseball.

I worked for a minor league team, in the same league and state he played in shortly after he played. I literally loaded the bus Michael Jordan bought for his team. I'm very familiar.

Baseball is extremely stressful, especially in the minor league. These guys are playing for their careers, and there's a reason the yips are far more common in baseball. Because it creates high stress environments. In the deep south the heat is terrible in the summer, so you feel exhausted even if you're not doing anything at all. It drains you completely. I worked in the clubhouse, I saw what these guys had to do. From what I've read Jordan was busting his ass, but even if he wasn't the players around him wouldn't have tolerated his loafing. Furthermore, I also played high school basketball around that time so I have a point of reference. No, it wasn't some kind of vacation, it was hard grueling work in the summer heat. I can't imagine why someone would think learning a new sport and competing at the professional level was some kind of vacation.

I would take an air conditioned gym and a basketball game over just being outside in the heat for a baseball game any day!

I use to root against Jordan because I was a Barkley fan but I can't remember any series, where Jordan was not the best player in a series.

As and Orlando Magic fan, I was not liking Jordan's Bulls at all. I wasn't and still am not a Jordan fan, but I didn't like him when he was playing for a reason. He made losing to him feel inevitable.

That part about Jordan being the best player in every series, that's very meaningful. Pippen was a great player, but at no point in his career, at no point in a series was there ever any confusion as to who the best player on the Bulls was. I'm pretty sure Jordan never finished third on the Bulls in scoring in a Finals...

[HEKTOR]

6-0 when it mattered the most (the finals).

MJ = the GOAT

/thread

I don't see how the Finals matter more than the other rounds because if you lose, you go fishing no matter if it's the 1st round or the Finals.
Ignoring the other rounds is a loser thing.

Because it's the biggest moment in all sports. The GOATs perform the best in the biggest moments, like in all sports. No one cares about 2nd place, nor do they remember it. That's just the way it is.

[OdomFan]

6-0 when it mattered the most (the finals).

MJ = the GOAT

/thread

I don't see how the Finals matter more than the other rounds because if you lose, you go fishing no matter if it's the 1st round or the Finals.
Ignoring the other rounds is a loser thing.

Because it's the biggest moment in all sports. The GOATs perform the best in the biggest moments, like in all sports. No one cares about 2nd place, nor do they remember it. That's just the way it is.

I wouldn't go as far as to say nobody cares about the other rounds outside of the East/Western Conference Finals and NBA Finals, but the Championship round does deserve to stand out like that because that's literally what the teams work their asses off to get to. To make the playoffs so that they can try to reach that Finals round. Then that's when you go all out to try to bring home the trophy when it's all said and done. That is why the Finals record matters more than any other round.

[SichtingLives]

OP and his people got the undisputed GOAT inferiority complex

[nfmos]

I mean, isnt it pretty simple, the more times you end up at the end of the season as the last team standing, as a percentage of the seasons you played, should show who is the most dominant right? As the best player of that team of course, not as a role player. So Jordan getting more rings while playing less seasons should really tip as least this portion of the GOAT argument in his favor.

How many times you are in the Finals sounds cool but really doesn't matter unless the playoffs were in a 1-16 seeding format. Thats the only way to ensure all the teams have comparable paths to the finals.

Jordan lost to the the Bucks his rookie season, and then the legendary Celtics and Pistons teams multiple times, and then the Magic when he only had played 17 regular season games in his comeback. Basically 4 different teams, but really two main teams had his number in his prime.

Lebron lost to the Pistons, Spurs twice, Celtics twice, Magic, Mavs, and Warriors 3 times. In his prime, multiple teams knew they could beat him, and they did.

Jordan was 6-0 against Western conference teams while Lebron was 3-6 against the west while he was in the East, do we really think hes making 10 finals while playing against the Spurs, Lakers, Warriors, OKC, Rockets, etc in early rounds?

I also hate how people try to say that MJ had a stacked team because of Pippen, while ignoring that no other player has probably done more to seek out scenarios of stacked teams than Lebron. Jordan stayed in one place in helped build a stacked team, while Lebron would move around to find teams with the best situations that would have established all-stars, or bring them onboard like with AD.

Also are people going to complain about Lebron having to face such great and scary teams like the Spurs, Warriors, Celtics, etc, instead of wondering why he wasn't able or willing to create a dynasty that was THE scary team himself? Jordan didn't have to worry about a team like the Warriors because his team WAS the Warriors.

MJ won more titles in less time with more individual accolades, so in the end he was more of a winner than Lebron. Lebron is still legendary and in that discussion for 2nd greatest, but its not a shame to lose this battle to MJ.

[OrangeBlueSkies]

Can we clear this up. I don't want to hear about MJ's perfect 6-0 record ever again. You have to include the 5 seasons of his career that he played without Scottie Pippen and never won a playoff series. You have to include all of the 1st round losses he had. The end result is that his record 6-15. Still good, but not perfect like Bill Russell's 11-13.

Dumb thread and I’m so glad I never opened it up until tonight. I’m stoned tonight

[AussieCeltic]

There was more top end talent in the 90s than from 2005-2015.

Lebron's worst finals opposition is better than anyone Jordan saw. Imagine getting to see teams like... Drexler and who?, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley when you're playing on a glorified all star team with another HOF'er and a stacked surrounding cast.

Compared to the 73-9 Warriors, Pop's Spurs spearheaded by Tim Duncan, Dirk's Mavs and The Durant Warriors... Silly

Last year's Miami Heat are worse than anyone Jordan faced. They had a 2.59 SRS. The 2011 Mavs had a 4.41 SRS. Jordan beat better teams in the second round than those 2 teams.

If you look at total playoff runs based on SRS it goes like this. So Lebron has 2 of the easiest paths to NBA championships in the last 3 decades and one top 20 hardest. MJ has 4 top 20 hardest and 3rd hardest overall

1. 1995 Houston Rockets = 23.96
2. 2001 LA Lakers = 22.15
3. 1997 Chicago Bulls = 20.82



7. 2016 Cleveland Cavs = 18.38


10. 1993 Chicago Bulls = 17.77


14. 1996 Chicago Bulls = 16.5
15. 1998 Chicago Bulls - 16.31


22. 2012 Miami Heat = 13.69

25. 1992 Chicago Bulls = 12.01













34. 2013 Miami Heat = 8.16
35. 2020 LA Lakers = 7.43