Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds

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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#81 » by mszymko » Yesterday 1:18 pm

Pinkyring wrote:Miami and lac should make the call this summer for Westbrook


Yes! LAC, MIA, and CHI.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#82 » by nate33 » Yesterday 1:18 pm

If you look at Westbrook's game log, you can see that he missed a bunch of games over the first two months of the season. That's because he was playing with a pretty bad quad injury. His last missed game was February 8th. If one assumes that February 10th was the start of "healthy Westbrook", the transformation has been amazing.

During the first 21 games while Westbrook played hurt, the Wizards were 6-15.
During the last 44 games while Westbrook was healthy, the Wizards were 24-20.

But it's also worth noting that Beal missed 8 games too, mostly when Westbrook was healthy. And that should be factored when making the comparison.

During the 20 games that Beal played alongside hurt Westbrook, the Wizards were 6-14.
During the 36 games that Beal and healthy Westbrook played together, the Wizards are 23-13.

So basically, the Wizards play like a 53-win team when Westbrook and Beal are healthy.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#83 » by rzzzzz » Yesterday 1:21 pm

Given the animus between Westbrook and Embiid during their rare encounters, I sort of think they might be able to turn that into some kind of chemistry. Never going to happen, though.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#84 » by pcbothwel » Yesterday 2:07 pm

Are we just ignoring the fact that Russ said post game that he had a torn quad at the end of last year and coming into this year he had a partial tear to the OTHER quad!!!
Last 47 games: 22 / 12 / 11.5 on a TS of 51%, 2.4:1 AST:TOV ratio and ORtg of 105
Last 16 games: 22 / 13.5 / 13 on a TS of 53.5%, 2.8:1 AST:TOV ratio and ORtg of 113 and Wiz are 13-3

Is it coincidence that Lopez is having a career year at 33, or Len in his 8th year after being waived by Toronto... or how about Gafford looking like a top 8 Center in the NBA after being practically given away by the Bulls?

This thread is about a generationally great stat line, yet people act like its just bloated number with usage.
"Chucker", yet scores 14 points on 8 FGA
"Assist didnt matter, teams combined for almost 300 points", ok.. then why did he only have 6 turnovers to his 24 assist (4:1)?

Like other Wiz fans... I was always a detractor, until I watched him day in/out.
1) His rebounds are real. Sure, when a guy grabs the sheer volume Russ does you can always point to 1 or 2 that a teammate could of gotten. But he constantly pulls down contested rebounds he had no business getting, and when he does he pushes the pace which is why we are 1st in the league in pace.
2) His assist are real. As others have said, he doesnt just drive and kick out to shooters. He manipulates the defense and gifts bigs with easy baskets. See above

He has his faults, but it's strange how people cant seem to believe he is still a top 10-12 PG in the league
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#85 » by MVP1992 » Yesterday 2:09 pm

Young gun 6 wrote:Wizards:
19-13 when Russ scores a Triple Double
11-22 when he doesn't


Empty stats though...


Anything to do with the opposing teams performance perhaps?
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#86 » by GeorgeSears » Yesterday 2:29 pm

Westbrook is a great example in why you can't just look at raw stats. He's still one of the most inefficient players in the league and is contributing factor to the Wizards fighting for a play-in position in the East.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#87 » by nate33 » Yesterday 3:03 pm

GeorgeSears wrote:Westbrook is a great example in why you can't just look at raw stats. He's still one of the most inefficient players in the league and is contributing factor to the Wizards fighting for a play-in position in the East.

See my post about 5 posts above.

Westbrook was awful when he was playing with a quad injury.

Since getting healthy, the Wizards have been a solid team. They've been exceptional with Westbrook healthy and Beal healthy.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#88 » by LastNameEver » Yesterday 3:07 pm

nate33 wrote:
GeorgeSears wrote:Westbrook is a great example in why you can't just look at raw stats. He's still one of the most inefficient players in the league and is contributing factor to the Wizards fighting for a play-in position in the East.

See my post about 5 posts above.

Westbrook was awful when he was playing with a quad injury.

Since getting healthy, the Wizards have been a solid team. They've been exceptional with Westbrook healthy and Beal healthy.

Yes, WB impact has always been predicated on his health. If his athleticism is diminished his game translates to bottom 100 player because his riggid style becomes 2 steps too slow. When healthy everything turns a 180
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#89 » by HotelVitale » Yesterday 3:09 pm

JN61 wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: The fact that you have to omit how he has a 50% TS to make a case tells you what you need to know. There's probably not a single other person on that list who's shooting below around 56% TS, and most of the guys are probably near or above 60%. I just don't see a way that a guy who's so inefficient that he actually has negative offensive win shares this year is one of the best 15 players in the league.
Yes. Nobody else is that low on TS but also nobody is remotely that high (but Harden) on assists or rebounds. You also see massive difference how they play when he is off the floor. Running around like headless chickens. Westbrook's leadership and floor management is almost Paul-like. Not everything is about shooting in this game. Otherwise Warriors would be way higher on standings.
I don't understand what your argument is but don't see how the points here work or build to something. Chris Paul is effective because he knows what he's good at and knows how to put his teammates in situation they're good at, there's a rare precision/calculatedness to his game which makes him more valuable than his raw numbers. Westbrook now mostly just runs around like crazy, takes any shot he gets, sometimes makes great passes and as often creates unforced turnovers. I still really like watching Westbrook but he's a chaos machine, and he tends to run hot and cold, looking brilliant sometimes and pretty awful/team-wrecking sometimes. And at this point it seems like we know that he's not creating much positive impact out there, or at least not relative to how much he takes up; Westbrook's teams haven't been very good when he's been using massive volume, so that means he's not 'Paul-like' in his impact. I'd also add that all of the advanced stats are unanimous in him not being very good now and, limited as advanced stats are, this is exactly the type of thing they help determine.

If your argument is that Westbrook makes a team that otherwise doesn't have any creators and is very bad (i.e. the Wiz minus him and Beal) look decent some times, okay cool no one's going to argue against that. There's a giant gap between that and being one of the best 15 players in the NBA this year.

(Also TS isn't about 'shooting' in the sense of who's a pure shooter, it's about offensive efficiency in general. Westbrook obviously isn't a good shooter but his incredibly low TS% also tells us clearly that he's not good at scoring in general, whether that's through taking layups or runners or drawing FTs, etc. He's simply bad at all of that relative to most other NBA players, let alone stars. Yet he still keeps shooting, driving, etc at high levels, which has a big negative effect on his teams. He also averages 5 TOs per game this year.)
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#90 » by Jadoogar » Yesterday 3:14 pm

nate33 wrote:I used to be a Westbrook hater, but since he joined the Wizards and I got a chance to watch him every night, he has made me a believer.

Yeah, I know he is inefficient with too many missed shots and turnovers, but his relentless energy is infectious. Also, his assists are legit. He's not just driving and kicking for contested jumpers, he feeds the big men for dunks time and time again. He has made Alex Len, Robin Lopez and Daniel Gafford all look like All-Stars.


His season is very similar to his year with Houston last year. Started very slow due to the new team/system and then gets much better as the season progressed.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#91 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Yesterday 3:19 pm

You're not always going to win the game, but having Russ on your team is so fun.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#92 » by HotelVitale » Yesterday 3:30 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Are we just ignoring the fact that Russ said post game that he had a torn quad at the end of last year and coming into this year he had a partial tear to the OTHER quad!!!
Last 47 games: 22 / 12 / 11.5 on a TS of 51%, 2.4:1 AST:TOV ratio and ORtg of 105
Last 16 games: 22 / 13.5 / 13 on a TS of 53.5%, 2.8:1 AST:TOV ratio and ORtg of 113 and Wiz are 13-3
...
1) His rebounds are real. Sure, when a guy grabs the sheer volume Russ does you can always point to 1 or 2 that a teammate could of gotten. But he constantly pulls down contested rebounds he had no business getting, and when he does he pushes the pace which is why we are 1st in the league in pace.
2) His assist are real. As others have said, he doesnt just drive and kick out to shooters. He manipulates the defense and gifts bigs with easy baskets. See above

The risk here is that you're assuming a full/comprehensive narrative around Westbrook and his season that we definitely don't know is the real story, and that evidence kind of points away from being true. He's had 16 relatively good games, which could be because he randomly healed his quad right before that but it could be because he's having a nice streak. I don't think anyone would dispute that Westbrook's really good and sort of amazing when he's on, it's just that the evidence/larger sample pretty clearly suggests that he's not a guy who's going to shoot average efficiency and have close to a 3:1 A:TO ratio over a long period. It's not like he was doing that right before this injury--he shot 50% TS his last year in OKC and had a roughly 2:1 A:TO. Last year his TS was a little better (53.6%) but the A:TO significantly worse (about 1:1.5). So if I was a betting man I'm going to say he's not going to stick at the high point of his last streak for the next couple years.

Also sure most of his rebs are 'real' in the sense that he's actually getting rebounds in the flow of the game (and not stealing every one of them or anything) but it's also very clear that WB's rebounding totals are very situational. Most players don't increase or decrease their per-minutes rebs too much throughout their career, but WB shifts massively from year to year--from less than 5 per 36 (in his 5th season) to over 11 per 36 (this year, a career high). Even looking at the change from last season to this season tells you something's going on from situation to situation: he averaged 7.9 per 36 last year with the Rockets and then jumped to 11.3 per 36 this year.

Similar thing with his assists. Like his rebounds they've shifted massively (between 5.5 and 11.3 per 36) depending on his teammates. He is a good and impressive playmaker: when he gets to run around with the ball in his hands all day, many of his assists are going to be really nice--he's an amazing athlete with good understanding of spacing etc and he's often a talented passer. But that doesn't mean that in general giving him the ball all day and letting him do his thing is a good move, or likely to lead you to a happy ending. The years when he's been sharing ball-handling duties and having much lower per-minute dimes, his teams have been a lot better. I know that's because he's had better teammates, but it also underscores how him being the big dude on a team isn't likely to give you a good outcome.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#93 » by Tacoma » Yesterday 3:59 pm

QPR wrote:He might be the most underrated playmaker of all time.


That he is. But his shooting efficiency is just sad. If he can do more playmaking and less shooting, his team would be better off...

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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#94 » by Danny1616 » Yesterday 4:16 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Are we just ignoring the fact that Russ said post game that he had a torn quad at the end of last year and coming into this year he had a partial tear to the OTHER quad!!!
Last 47 games: 22 / 12 / 11.5 on a TS of 51%, 2.4:1 AST:TOV ratio and ORtg of 105
Last 16 games: 22 / 13.5 / 13 on a TS of 53.5%, 2.8:1 AST:TOV ratio and ORtg of 113 and Wiz are 13-3

Is it coincidence that Lopez is having a career year at 33, or Len in his 8th year after being waived by Toronto... or how about Gafford looking like a top 8 Center in the NBA after being practically given away by the Bulls?

This thread is about a generationally great stat line, yet people act like its just bloated number with usage.
"Chucker", yet scores 14 points on 8 FGA
"Assist didnt matter, teams combined for almost 300 points", ok.. then why did he only have 6 turnovers to his 24 assist (4:1)?

Like other Wiz fans... I was always a detractor, until I watched him day in/out.
1) His rebounds are real. Sure, when a guy grabs the sheer volume Russ does you can always point to 1 or 2 that a teammate could of gotten. But he constantly pulls down contested rebounds he had no business getting, and when he does he pushes the pace which is why we are 1st in the league in pace.
2) His assist are real. As others have said, he doesnt just drive and kick out to shooters. He manipulates the defense and gifts bigs with easy baskets. See above

He has his faults, but it's strange how people cant seem to believe he is still a top 10-12 PG in the league


I don't think most people dispute anything you say.

Westbrook is a freak athlete, an insanely tough competitor, has a crazy motor, and is one of the most explosive guys we've ever seen. The guy is a 1st ballot hall of famer.

At the same time, his basketball IQ is not great, he makes a lot of boneheaded decisions, he's a high turnover player, a poor perimeter shooter and he's not hard to game plan for in the playoffs. Even in his prime he's had major struggles when games slow down and he gets game planned for in critical playoff games.

Look at Westbrook's last 5 playoff numbers:

2016: Shot 40% from the field and 32% from 3. He also averaged 4 turnovers a game.
2017: Shot 39% from the field and 27% from 3. He also averaged 6 turnover a game.
2018: Shot 40% from the field and 36% from 3. He also averaged 5 turnovers a game.
2019: Shot 36% from the field and 32% from 3. He also averaged nearly 5 turnovers a game.
2020: Shot 42% from the field and 24% from 3.

A guy like Lowry gets crucified for not being great in the playoffs but look at his efficiency comparitively:

2016: Shot 43% from the field and 39% from 3. Averaged 3 turnovers a game.
2017: Shot 46% from the field and 41% from 3. Averaged 3 turnovers a game.
2018: Shot 43% from the field and 40% from 3. Averaged 2.5 turnovers a game.
2019: Shot 42% from the field and 35% from 3. Averaged 3 turnovers a game.
2020: Shot 44% from the field and 40% from 3. Averaged 3 turnovers a game.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#95 » by magee » Yesterday 4:23 pm

Tacoma wrote:
QPR wrote:He might be the most underrated playmaker of all time.


That he is. But his shooting efficiency is just sad. If he can do more playmaking and less shooting, his team would be better off...

Image


Understandable. With Westbrook, you will never have that option, because he will always be the players he is. And as a result, it leads to the playoffs on every team he's been on. He's missed what, maybe his first three years, of making the playoffs? Doesn't matter who his teammates were beforehand. He's a proven winner. If anything, this Wizards team post All-Star Break is proof of that.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#96 » by dhsilv2 » Yesterday 4:39 pm

QPR wrote:He might be the most underrated playmaker of all time.


There's actually some good analytics and research on this that I believe 538 did. He is VERY much an all time playmaker.

I just takes bad shots, turns the ball over too much, and isn't much of a defender. That sadly leaves him as at his best a superstar and now...a really solid guard who's a net plus most of the time but has issues.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#97 » by BallinBug » Yesterday 5:35 pm

picko wrote:
kieferli wrote:I am not sure if anyone want to face them in first round


Do you really think that any of the top Eastern Conference teams are concerned about Westbrook and the Wizards? Each of the Nets, 76ers and Bucks would expect to win that series in five-games max.


Wiz would win those series in 6 or 7. Nets would be tough if healthy but Wiz probably win that in 7 too.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#98 » by FreeThrowLine » Yesterday 6:25 pm

JN61 wrote:In the nutshell Pacers played good defense (wouldn't know from numbers), but Westbrook picked them apart. Wizards on other hand can't play defense (way better as of late granted) so they pretty much always let their opponents score a lot. What is noteworthy they played on extremely high pace but that is to be expected from Wizards games.

They are the fastest paced offense in the league and apparently on the pace to play the fastest pace in the last 30 years? If that is not Russ effect I don't know what is. He turned last year's Houston 2nd fastest pace team while before his arrival that team was dead last. Westbrook getting rebound and him running has insane effect on teams he plays.

https://youtu.be/dqb4rDWpiTc
here are highlights video if you interested. If I remember right, Westbrook bricked 2 shots which he rebounded and scored after, I believe all but one turnover were results of overpassing, still 6 turnovers in 24 assists seems very acceptable. He basically picked Pacers apart, a lot of shots that he assisted on were very well contested as well but he delivered a lot of them to sweet spots of players. Not just easy 3 point wide open heaves that you pray go in. But constant barrage of inside, inside, inside passes.


Thanks, I’ll check it out. Admittedly, I haven’t watched a lot of Wizards games but I was impressed with the game I watched recently against the Lakers, they looked like a legit playoff team
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#99 » by og15 » Yesterday 6:29 pm

magee wrote:
Tacoma wrote:
QPR wrote:He might be the most underrated playmaker of all time.


That he is. But his shooting efficiency is just sad. If he can do more playmaking and less shooting, his team would be better off...

Image


Understandable. With Westbrook, you will never have that option, because he will always be the players he is. And as a result, it leads to the playoffs on every team he's been on. He's missed what, maybe his first three years, of making the playoffs? Doesn't matter who his teammates were beforehand. He's a proven winner. If anything, this Wizards team post All-Star Break is proof of that.
Like I said earlier in the thread, respect needs to be given where it is due.

I think Westbrook is definitely a guy who can help push teams to the playoffs, BUT, everything being in context, Westbrook has also played 11/13 seasons with Durant, Paul George or James Harden (Houston), so if he wasn't making the playoffs all those seasons, something would have been really wrong. Westbrook has actually drawn a very good lot when it comes to the co-star on his team compared to many, maybe most other guys. I don't see Bradley Beal as a high enough impact guy to add him to that list, but maybe others might.

I think people underrate his ability to shift the defense and create for others because of the high turnovers and the wild things he'll at times do. Westbrook is more flawed than some other top level guys, but he has a level of athleticism and motor that few can match. Like even when Westbrook is ailing and his athleticism is not at tip top level, he's still more athletic than the vast majority of PG's.

I've said in the past, that regular season wise, Westbrook can have a lot of value, at least in the past he's been an iron man who didn't miss games (last two seasons haven't been as good), and he can do a lot of things to help teams win. My concern for him has always been in the playoffs, I've said that I believe the best "balance" to Westbrook is a super efficient high scorer, because their efficiency at volume balances out his not so efficient and generally also high volume scoring, and allows his other areas of impact to shine and not be detracted from. To me that's why Durant was a good pairing for him, and even Paul Goerge to a degree.

I'm interested to see how things work out for Washington in the post-season, they could be interesting, or they could have a hard time.
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Re: Westbrook: 14 Points, 24 Assists, 21 Rebounds 

Post#100 » by Michael Lucky » Yesterday 7:30 pm

Craziest motor i've ever seen in basketball.

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