The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA

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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#41 » by dhsilv2 » Tue May 4, 2021 9:59 pm

MarcusBrody wrote:
Michael Jordan wrote:Overall its not a bad list, few guys could be shuffled here and there.

Jokic over Lebron/Curry/Durant is a stretch considering playoff performances. Also surprised not to see Jamal Murray


Really? Jokic has been nothing short of excellent in his two trips to the playoffs. His past two years of playoff performances haven't been that different from those guys you've listed (save LeBron, but he wasn't in the playoffs two years ago, so it's harder to compare).

Plus Jokic is just coming into his prime and looks better than he did in previous seasons while LeBron looks excellent, but maybe slowing down just a bit.

Now would I take Jokic over a healthy LeBron in a playoff series...probably not. But at this point I also wouldn't be shocked to see Jokic outplay LeBron in a matchup. He's been that good this year.


I'm not sure what possible playoff questions one has with jokic.

Over 33 playoff games.

24.7 PPG, 6.9 AST 11.2 TRB 1.1 STL and 0.8 BLK 51.3 FG% 41.6% 3P 60.6 TS% 26.9 PER .212 WS/48 and a BPM of 9.3

He's won 3 playoff series in 2 years and this is despite coming off Covid last year.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#42 » by HotelVitale » Tue May 4, 2021 10:06 pm

cgf wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:That's true and some people are having trouble forgiving his previous fake stats-ish seasons, but he's also in this weird spot where he's the unquestioned one-and-only creator for a slow defense-first team that's been a surprise. He doesn't really have any competition for his touches and gets to do his whole barrel-into-the-lane thing all day, and the team is winning because he's doing that well. So he's been very good but are we really comfortable saying that he's definitely a top-20 NBA player, and not just that he's thriving in a perfect spot for him?

He's kind of in that IT2 on the Celtics tip--on a good-not-great team that only needs him to create and score reasonably well to win more games than anyone expected them to. The year that IT2 scored almost 30 a game, people had these same debates--IT2 plays a crucial, crucial role to a team that's winning, but is he really a top-15 player? Would a guy like Brandon Ingram--who's scoring and dishing as much as Randle but nowhere close to this list--be looking as good if he was the Guy on the Knicks? Jaylen Brown?

Who knows how long it lasts, but it's not just opportunity with Randle this season. His assist rate has increased by almost 11% and his 3pt shooting has improved by almost 15%, on nearly identical usage to the past few years (29% vs 27.6% & 27.8%)...on top of having been a really good defender all season. He's simply a completely different caliber of decision-maker, shot-maker, and stopper than he has ever been to this point. Again, he may never be this good again...but this season, #21 feels low for just how good he has been in every aspect of the game & I don't think there are very many players that you could swap with Julius, who would have us sitting on a better record or who would be playing as well...

This isn't an award for most improved player, though, so the increases shouldn't be factored in. And many are precisely because of what I was talking about: the Knicks need exactly what Randle can bring and he's grown into that role. Instead of asking 'who else could you swap to the Knicks and have them thrive that much?' I'd ask 'how many of the players 10-20 spots lower than Randle here could you switch out for Randle and have Randle improve their teams significantly?' I'm not saying it's none of them or anything, just that Randle's in a perfect spot to showcase what he does now.

Also this list isn't 'top 25 MVPs of this year,' it's a list of the best players right now. Take away the team context and the good story of the Knicks (plus the very real chance of Randle regressing) and I'm feeling shakier about his standing. If we were picking teams right now for a tournament, I'm fine with Randle being about where he is on this list but I'd also fully get if people chose like 8-10 players before him.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#43 » by cgf » Tue May 4, 2021 10:11 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
cgf wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:That's true and some people are having trouble forgiving his previous fake stats-ish seasons, but he's also in this weird spot where he's the unquestioned one-and-only creator for a slow defense-first team that's been a surprise. He doesn't really have any competition for his touches and gets to do his whole barrel-into-the-lane thing all day, and the team is winning because he's doing that well. So he's been very good but are we really comfortable saying that he's definitely a top-20 NBA player, and not just that he's thriving in a perfect spot for him?

He's kind of in that IT2 on the Celtics tip--on a good-not-great team that only needs him to create and score reasonably well to win more games than anyone expected them to. The year that IT2 scored almost 30 a game, people had these same debates--IT2 plays a crucial, crucial role to a team that's winning, but is he really a top-15 player? Would a guy like Brandon Ingram--who's scoring and dishing as much as Randle but nowhere close to this list--be looking as good if he was the Guy on the Knicks? Jaylen Brown?

Who knows how long it lasts, but it's not just opportunity with Randle this season. His assist rate has increased by almost 11% and his 3pt shooting has improved by almost 15%, on nearly identical usage to the past few years (29% vs 27.6% & 27.8%)...on top of having been a really good defender all season. He's simply a completely different caliber of decision-maker, shot-maker, and stopper than he has ever been to this point. Again, he may never be this good again...but this season, #21 feels low for just how good he has been in every aspect of the game & I don't think there are very many players that you could swap with Julius, who would have us sitting on a better record or who would be playing as well...

This isn't an award for most improved player, though, so the increases shouldn't be factored in. And many are precisely because of what I was talking about: the Knicks need exactly what Randle can bring and he's grown into that role. Instead of asking 'who else could you swap to the Knicks and have them thrive that much?' I'd ask 'how many of the players 10-20 spots lower than Randle here could you switch out for Randle and have Randle improve their teams significantly?' I'm not saying it's none of them or anything, just that Randle's in a perfect spot to showcase what he does now.

Also this list isn't 'top 25 MVPs of this year,' it's a list of the best players right now. Take away the team context and the good story of the Knicks (plus the very real chance of Randle regressing) and I'm feeling shakier about his standing. If we were picking teams right now for a tournament, I'm fine with Randle being about where he is on this list but I'd also fully get if people chose like 8-10 players before him.

Kevin O'Connor said that they voted based on who has been best this season...and dragging your team to success is part of determining who is playing the best in a sport as individualistic as basketball. This isn't football or hockey, where you can have the best player on the planet & still suck. So if two guys are having similar seasons...though not many guys are having seasons like Randle's...but one guy is clearly the best player on a 4th seed while the other guy's fighting to stay in a play-in spot on a team with a better supporting cast, then the guy leading the 4th seed has been better this year.

And I mention the increases against the argument that he's just an opportunity case, he's consistently making great decisions to drive chance-creation for his side. Sure there are teams for whom he wouldn't see enough of the ball to be a significant difference maker, but not as many as you seem to be implying.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#44 » by Young gun 6 » Tue May 4, 2021 10:14 pm

Westbrook....
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#45 » by DCasey91 » Tue May 4, 2021 10:18 pm

Embiid is my favorite player he’s way too high, Young is better then Jrue and Towns, so is Westbrook. Not a bad list just the rankings are bit off. Giannis at 7 is disrespectful.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#46 » by Buzzard » Tue May 4, 2021 10:21 pm

birdlives_ma wrote:I mean, it's a Ringer list so I expected it... but no love for Trae? I guess 25-9 on a playoff team doesn't cut it...

Trae was 29th on Sports Illustrated top 100 list. I don't worry to much about these list. They give us something to discuss and for some they may even be reference points for next seasons fantasy drafts :D

https://www.si.com/nba/2020/12/14/top-100-nba-players-2021-daily-cover
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#47 » by Kingdibs19 » Tue May 4, 2021 10:29 pm

Jokic too high. Lebron should be 1. Kawhi too high. Jamal Murray should be there. As someone said, there is not much difference from the 13th best player to the 30th in the NBA, so much talent.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#48 » by JJ_PR » Tue May 4, 2021 10:30 pm

Kevin Durant 5th? That list is way off.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#49 » by BoatsNZones » Tue May 4, 2021 10:33 pm

Kevin O'Connor (one of the 4 voters here) stated that this was meant to be a list of the best players of this season, so it's effectively their extended MVP list while ignoring time missed due to injury I guess. Suppose that's why they can find a way to land Embiid #2 (there's no other scenario that you could argue him that high).

I always find a dozen issues with these, but they are admittedly hard to come up with yourself and it's interesting to see where the pulse of the media is at I guess.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#50 » by YogurtProducer » Tue May 4, 2021 10:39 pm

cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
cgf wrote:Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*

Not really. He’s been really good don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think he’s been better than Sabonis and both are better but not miles over Siakam.

My point is the talent in the NBA is stacked right now and a guy like Siakam whose a 21-7-5 with good defence guy isn’t even discussed because there’s no much talent.

That was my point that those lower level guys from 15-30 are entirely “what have you done for me lately”. Siakam was 2nd all-nba averaging 23/7/3.5 and now isn’t even a top 25 player averaging 21/7/4.5 on identical efficiency.

...because you are under-rating quite how good he has been...

How do? Sabonis is the much efficient scorer and IMO is better suited for playoff basketball.

Defense is hard to judge but I don’t think Randles D is enough to push him ahead of Sabonis.

Randle was actually better on a per minute basis offensively outside of his playmaking while in NOP and no one even considered him a top 50 guy let alone top 20. It’s recency bias at its finest.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#51 » by YogurtProducer » Tue May 4, 2021 10:39 pm

Kingdibs19 wrote:Jokic too high. Lebron should be 1. Kawhi too high. Jamal Murray should be there. As someone said, there is not much difference from the 13th best player to the 30th in the NBA, so much talent.

Jamal Murray is not top 25
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#52 » by cgf » Tue May 4, 2021 10:59 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:Not really. He’s been really good don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think he’s been better than Sabonis and both are better but not miles over Siakam.

My point is the talent in the NBA is stacked right now and a guy like Siakam whose a 21-7-5 with good defence guy isn’t even discussed because there’s no much talent.

That was my point that those lower level guys from 15-30 are entirely “what have you done for me lately”. Siakam was 2nd all-nba averaging 23/7/3.5 and now isn’t even a top 25 player averaging 21/7/4.5 on identical efficiency.

...because you are under-rating quite how good he has been...

How do? Sabonis is the much efficient scorer and IMO is better suited for playoff basketball.

Defense is hard to judge but I don’t think Randles D is enough to push him ahead of Sabonis.

Randle was actually better on a per minute basis offensively outside of his playmaking while in NOP and no one even considered him a top 50 guy let alone top 20. It’s recency bias at its finest.

I can understand why someone trying to argue for Sabonis would like to ignore the defensive side of the game :lol:


...how do I even respond to your last paragraph? 'If we ignore this fundamental aspect of what is making Randle so good this season, he was better in New Orleans on a per minute basis'...okay then, let's start with: No, he wasn't, even if we set Randle's playmaking this season aside for now, he has become an excellent 3pt shooter, which has made him so much more dangerous as a scorer than he was coming off the bench behind AD & Boogie.

Then let's recognize that scaling up your playing time makes it a lot harder to maintain impressive "per minute" production, so that managing to do so is a significant sign of improvement. Not only because larger sample sizes minimize the impact of luck, but also because a guy playing 37 minutes a night as the engine of his team's offense faces completely different defensive attention from the opposition than a 6th man does when he's torching bench units.

Next let's loop back to this "if we ignore his playmaking" thing...Randle becoming an excellent playmaker (like becoming a top tier 3pt shooter) completely changed his game & the impact he is capable of making. How well he takes advantage of his increased gravity to create good looks for his team-mates is an absolutely massive part of what has made him so exceptional this season. You can't just ignore it because it's inconvenient for the "point" you think you are making.


Finally...you can't call a list of the top 25 players this season out for recency bias. Focusing on this season was the whole damn point of the exercise :lol:
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#53 » by GSWFan1994 » Tue May 4, 2021 11:01 pm

BodieB wrote:
GSWFan1994 wrote:What really jumps in the eye, IMO, is Anthony Davis at 9.

He hardly played this season. He missed what, 60% of the season?

He's barely top 20, and this is being optimistic.

Durant has barely played in 2 years and is still top 5. Kyrie hasn't played all that much either while we're at it.


Sure, I agree with you. Good examples all around. It's just that Davis' ranking seemed more drastic to me.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#54 » by SeniorWalker » Tue May 4, 2021 11:19 pm

In the minority but I now think LeBron is a borderline top 5 player. Last year I gave him the benefit of the doubt, he had a great year and playoffs....but he also played with AD who looked like the best player in the NBA during most of the playoffs, and during the bubble when a bunch of players didn't want to be there at all. Not hating at all btw, I do like LeBron and respect his stature in the game's history, I just think his prime is over and other younger guys have surpassed his current level of play. It often takes years for the common perception to catch up and the media train to latch onto someone else. I've been watching basketball for almost 30 years and know what I see, when I see it.

The last time I thought LeBron was the best in the NBA was 2018. That was the last year of his prime. Since then, whenever he's had to really carry the load he has not been able to turn up the intensity for long stretches and overwhelm like he used to. People don't really appreciate how much scoring pressure AD has taken off of LeBron and usually comment in the other direction. I don't think AD is better than LeBron but it is currently very close between the two when they're healthy.

As of now I would take
Steph
Jokic
Giannis
Harden

....all definitely over LeBron as a #1. Other guys are arguable but health makes them questionable. Guys like Giannis are flawed, but Giannis over the last few years didn't have an AD to pick up the scoring and defensive load for him for huge stretches. Giannis to me has generally been the better player than LeBron since 2019 and a solid playoff run will only cement him over LeBron imo.
I also think Curry is better, these warriors really suck without him.
Jokic is amazing, no comment needed really. He carried a team to the WCF last year....without an AD level teammate.
Harden and LeBron are close. I like Harden because he's a bit younger and probably has more motor at this stage, much better scorer and very good PG in his own right.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#55 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue May 4, 2021 11:22 pm

Randle has been better than Beal and Zion this year, and arguably better than Booker and Gobert (although it is tough to judge Gobert because his role is so different). He's a novelty, and his level of play has been hard to believe so maybe people subconsciously fear that this season is a fluke, but Julius is definitely a top 20 player in the NBA today.

Otherwise it's a very solid list. Better than most sites.

I'm glad they gave Jokic his flowers and that they didn't give Luka the underserved level of hype that we saw before the start of the season. #10 for him is fair. I would just swap Harden and Giannis but that's splitting hairs really.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#56 » by Badonkadonk » Tue May 4, 2021 11:23 pm

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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#57 » by Statlanta » Tue May 4, 2021 11:43 pm

I'd drop Williamson, Beal and Durant and raise Gobert, Harden and Sabonis
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#58 » by The_Hater » Tue May 4, 2021 11:47 pm

Nobody is ever going to agree with another person’s list but this is a pretty good one they put together. I don’t see any major WTF’s.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#59 » by BugginOut » Tue May 4, 2021 11:52 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:Not really. He’s been really good don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think he’s been better than Sabonis and both are better but not miles over Siakam.

My point is the talent in the NBA is stacked right now and a guy like Siakam whose a 21-7-5 with good defence guy isn’t even discussed because there’s no much talent.

That was my point that those lower level guys from 15-30 are entirely “what have you done for me lately”. Siakam was 2nd all-nba averaging 23/7/3.5 and now isn’t even a top 25 player averaging 21/7/4.5 on identical efficiency.

...because you are under-rating quite how good he has been...

How do? Sabonis is the much efficient scorer and IMO is better suited for playoff basketball.

Defense is hard to judge but I don’t think Randles D is enough to push him ahead of Sabonis.

Randle was actually better on a per minute basis offensively outside of his playmaking while in NOP and no one even considered him a top 50 guy let alone top 20. It’s recency bias at its finest.

Sabonis is not even close to Randle. Sabonis has a negative net rating, the Pacers are literally better without him on the floor.

Also saying Sabonis is more “efficient” when he averages 20 points on 59% TS to Randles 24 on 58% TS is definitely a reach

Lastly saying Sabonis’ game is better for “playoff basketball” is just wrong. Sabonis can only score in the post where Randle is a 3 level scorer, operates mostly out the midrange and is elite at the 3 ball. If anything Randle’s game is perfect for the playoffs.

This isn’t even considering defense where Randle is a plus defender and Sabonis is a liability at the most important position for defense.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#60 » by Roscoe Sheed » Wed May 5, 2021 12:01 am

In terms of talent maybe this list is somewhat correct, but guys who have missed approximately 1/2 the season probably shouldn't be rated so highly if merit is the basis

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