The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA

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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#21 » by Doctor MJ » Yesterday 9:13 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:Gobert's spot seems off and Randle might actually be getting underrated with beal and book still two guys I'm more suspect on. But yeah nothing terrible here. I doubt this was a really well thought out and put together list but it's the ringer. They're a step above espn but still mostly fluff.


Agree on Gobert in particular. People are super-low on him given that he's by far the most valuable player of the team that's been the best team this season. It's one thing if people say "Yeah, but playoffs...", and I realize that this is implied, but people are actually turning up their nose as Gobert as a serious MVP candidate, and to me that's absurd.

I think we can all agree that Gobert doesn't have the skillset of an offensive star and that holds him back, but when folks seem to put him fundamentally in a lower category from "the real superstars", to me that's a modern bias. Had we been having this discussion not long after the Bill Russell era, Gobert would be a major MVP candidate this year, and I think that's about right.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#22 » by laika » Yesterday 9:16 pm

A little strange to consider that someone with a triple double average doesn't even get a mention. I would probably agree, but top 30 might be where you would start considering Westbrook.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#23 » by iggymcfrack » Yesterday 9:16 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Gobert's spot seems off and Randle might actually be getting underrated with beal and book still two guys I'm more suspect on. But yeah nothing terrible here. I doubt this was a really well thought out and put together list but it's the ringer. They're a step above espn but still mostly fluff.


Agree on Gobert in particular. People are super-low on him given that he's by far the most valuable player of the team that's been the best team this season. It's one thing if people say "Yeah, but playoffs...", and I realize that this is implied, but people are actually turning up their nose as Gobert as a serious MVP candidate, and to me that's absurd.

I think we can all agree that Gobert doesn't have the skillset of an offensive star and that holds him back, but when folks seem to put him fundamentally in a lower category from "the real superstars", to me that's a modern bias. Had we been having this discussion not long after the Bill Russell era, Gobert would be a major MVP candidate this year, and I think that's about right.


Gobert below Kyrie is beyond absurd. I’d probably put him 12th assuming this list is “who’s likely to be the most valuable in the playoffs” and probably closer to 5th if we’re doing MVP voting.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#24 » by HoopsterJones » Yesterday 9:16 pm

Zion is a few spots higher than I would have ranked him, but he’s a beast no doubt and might be a top 10 player as soon as next season.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#25 » by GSWFan1994 » Yesterday 9:21 pm

What really jumps in the eye, IMO, is Anthony Davis at 9.

He hardly played this season. He missed what, 60% of the season?

He's barely top 20, and this is being optimistic.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#26 » by Doranku » Yesterday 9:25 pm

GSWFan1994 wrote:What really jumps in the eye, IMO, is Anthony Davis at 9.

He hardly played this season. He missed what, 60% of the season?

He's barely top 20, and this is being optimistic.


He's played more games than Durant who is listed at #5.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#27 » by Michael Jordan » Yesterday 9:28 pm

Overall its not a bad list, few guys could be shuffled here and there.

Jokic over Lebron/Curry/Durant is a stretch considering playoff performances. Also surprised not to see Jamal Murray
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#28 » by YogurtProducer » Yesterday 9:32 pm

cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:There’s so many good players right. Feels like players in that 15-30 range are very similar is just depends on whose around them.

Throw a guy like Sabonis on a team where he isn’t a #1 guy and he shoots up the rankings. I just don’t think there’s much of a difference between #21 Randle, on the bubble Sabonis, or not mentioned Siakam.

So so hard to get it down to 25 guys nowadays

Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*

Not really. He’s been really good don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think he’s been better than Sabonis and both are better but not miles over Siakam.

My point is the talent in the NBA is stacked right now and a guy like Siakam whose a 21-7-5 with good defence guy isn’t even discussed because there’s no much talent.

That was my point that those lower level guys from 15-30 are entirely “what have you done for me lately”. Siakam was 2nd all-nba averaging 23/7/3.5 and now isn’t even a top 25 player averaging 21/7/4.5 on identical efficiency.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#29 » by cgf » Yesterday 9:36 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:There’s so many good players right. Feels like players in that 15-30 range are very similar is just depends on whose around them.

Throw a guy like Sabonis on a team where he isn’t a #1 guy and he shoots up the rankings. I just don’t think there’s much of a difference between #21 Randle, on the bubble Sabonis, or not mentioned Siakam.

So so hard to get it down to 25 guys nowadays

Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*

Not really. He’s been really good don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think he’s been better than Sabonis and both are better but not miles over Siakam.

My point is the talent in the NBA is stacked right now and a guy like Siakam whose a 21-7-5 with good defence guy isn’t even discussed because there’s no much talent.

That was my point that those lower level guys from 15-30 are entirely “what have you done for me lately”. Siakam was 2nd all-nba averaging 23/7/3.5 and now isn’t even a top 25 player averaging 21/7/4.5 on identical efficiency.

...because you are under-rating quite how good he has been...
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#30 » by BallinBug » Yesterday 9:40 pm

No Westbrook? Some 'analysis' LOL
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#31 » by TravisScott55 » Yesterday 9:43 pm

Jokic at number 1? LMAOOO
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#32 » by HotelVitale » Yesterday 9:43 pm

cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:There’s so many good players right. Feels like players in that 15-30 range are very similar is just depends on whose around them.Throw a guy like Sabonis on a team where he isn’t a #1 guy and he shoots up the rankings. I just don’t think there’s much of a difference between #21 Randle, on the bubble Sabonis, or not mentioned Siakam. So so hard to get it down to 25 guys nowadays
Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*


That's true and some people are having trouble forgiving his previous fake stats-ish seasons, but he's also in this weird spot where he's the unquestioned one-and-only creator for a slow defense-first team that's been a surprise. He doesn't really have any competition for his touches and gets to do his whole barrel-into-the-lane thing all day, and the team is winning because he's doing that well. So he's been very good but are we really comfortable saying that he's definitely a top-20 NBA player, and not just that he's thriving in a perfect spot for him?

He's kind of in that IT2 on the Celtics tip--on a good-not-great team that only needs him to create and score reasonably well to win more games than anyone expected them to. The year that IT2 scored almost 30 a game, people had these same debates--IT2 plays a crucial, crucial role to a team that's winning, but is he really a top-15 player? Would a guy like Brandon Ingram--who's scoring and dishing as much as Randle but nowhere close to this list--be looking as good if he was the Guy on the Knicks? Jaylen Brown?
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#33 » by BodieB » Yesterday 9:46 pm

GSWFan1994 wrote:What really jumps in the eye, IMO, is Anthony Davis at 9.

He hardly played this season. He missed what, 60% of the season?

He's barely top 20, and this is being optimistic.

Durant has barely played in 2 years and is still top 5. Kyrie hasn't played all that much either while we're at it.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#34 » by MarcusBrody » Yesterday 9:47 pm

Michael Jordan wrote:Overall its not a bad list, few guys could be shuffled here and there.

Jokic over Lebron/Curry/Durant is a stretch considering playoff performances. Also surprised not to see Jamal Murray


Really? Jokic has been nothing short of excellent in his two trips to the playoffs. His past two years of playoff performances haven't been that different from those guys you've listed. Two years ago, he led the league in Playoff WS/48, BPM, and PER. Even if you don't necessarily think those measures are the finest differentiators, it certainly suggests that he was in the top echelon of performers.

Plus Jokic is just coming into his prime and looks better than he did in previous seasons while LeBron looks excellent, but maybe slowing down just a bit.

Now would I take Jokic over a healthy LeBron in a playoff series...probably not. But at this point I also wouldn't be shocked to see Jokic outplay LeBron in a matchup. He's been that good this year.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#35 » by BadWolf » Yesterday 9:49 pm

TravisScott55 wrote:Jokic at number 1? LMAOOO


MVP at nr 1? Yeah, laughable.
No Westbrook? Laughable indeed.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#36 » by cgf » Yesterday 9:50 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
cgf wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:There’s so many good players right. Feels like players in that 15-30 range are very similar is just depends on whose around them.Throw a guy like Sabonis on a team where he isn’t a #1 guy and he shoots up the rankings. I just don’t think there’s much of a difference between #21 Randle, on the bubble Sabonis, or not mentioned Siakam. So so hard to get it down to 25 guys nowadays
Sounds like you're just under-rating how good Julius has been this season *shrug*


That's true and some people are having trouble forgiving his previous fake stats-ish seasons, but he's also in this weird spot where he's the unquestioned one-and-only creator for a slow defense-first team that's been a surprise. He doesn't really have any competition for his touches and gets to do his whole barrel-into-the-lane thing all day, and the team is winning because he's doing that well. So he's been very good but are we really comfortable saying that he's definitely a top-20 NBA player, and not just that he's thriving in a perfect spot for him?

He's kind of in that IT2 on the Celtics tip--on a good-not-great team that only needs him to create and score reasonably well to win more games than anyone expected them to. The year that IT2 scored almost 30 a game, people had these same debates--IT2 plays a crucial, crucial role to a team that's winning, but is he really a top-15 player? Would a guy like Brandon Ingram--who's scoring and dishing as much as Randle but nowhere close to this list--be looking as good if he was the Guy on the Knicks? Jaylen Brown?

Who knows how long it lasts, but it's not just opportunity with Randle this season. His assist rate has increased by almost 11% and his 3pt shooting has improved by almost 15%, on nearly identical usage to the past few years (29% vs 27.6% & 27.8%)...on top of having been a really good defender all season. He's simply a completely different caliber of decision-maker, shot-maker, and stopper than he has ever been to this point.

Again, he may never be this good again...but this season, #21 feels low for just how good he has been in every aspect of the game & I don't think there are very many players that you could swap with Julius, who would have us sitting on a better record or who would be playing as well...
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#37 » by dhsilv2 » Yesterday 9:51 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Gobert's spot seems off and Randle might actually be getting underrated with beal and book still two guys I'm more suspect on. But yeah nothing terrible here. I doubt this was a really well thought out and put together list but it's the ringer. They're a step above espn but still mostly fluff.


Agree on Gobert in particular. People are super-low on him given that he's by far the most valuable player of the team that's been the best team this season. It's one thing if people say "Yeah, but playoffs...", and I realize that this is implied, but people are actually turning up their nose as Gobert as a serious MVP candidate, and to me that's absurd.

I think we can all agree that Gobert doesn't have the skillset of an offensive star and that holds him back, but when folks seem to put him fundamentally in a lower category from "the real superstars", to me that's a modern bias. Had we been having this discussion not long after the Bill Russell era, Gobert would be a major MVP candidate this year, and I think that's about right.


I also don't get the idea that he's somehow ben wallace like on offense. He's scoring 14 a game and forces teams to defender him. He also gets under valued in the playoffs, if his coaches don't use him correctly, that's not on him. I know people struggle to separate these things but you have to game plan correctly to maximize a guy like Gobert, but when the coaches get it right he's a monster.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#38 » by WarriorGM » Yesterday 9:58 pm

Any list of this sort without Curry at #1 is a dumb list.

A random casual housewife looking at games for the first time could probably pick out Curry faster than these bozos.
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#39 » by birdlives_ma » Yesterday 9:59 pm

I mean, it's a Ringer list so I expected it... but no love for Trae? I guess 25-9 on a playoff team doesn't cut it...
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Re: The Ringer: The Top 25 Players in the NBA 

Post#40 » by HotelVitale » Yesterday 9:59 pm

laika wrote:A little strange to consider that someone with a triple double average doesn't even get a mention. I would probably agree, but top 30 might be where you would start considering Westbrook.

Just posted this in another thread: Westbrook is posting a 50.5% TS this year, and he's at about 5 TOs per game. That's one of the worst TS% of any rotation guy in the league--183 out of 191 qualifying players in bbref with only junk players beneath him--and the TOs lead the league by a healthy measure too. I still really like watching Westbrook and don't like judging people just by advanced stats, but those are pretty mind-blowingly inefficient numbers. Like all-time inefficiency stuff, considering that he has the 16th highest usage in the league while being that inefficient and turning the ball over that much.

To give some context, out of the top 20 in usage, the next lowest TS% is D Fox's 56.5%--a full 6% pts higher than Westbrook--and most of the players around him are a solid 10-15% pts higher than him. There are only 2 other players in the top 35 who are below 54% TS, and they're both bench players/6th men who come in and fire away and play far fewer minutes than Westbrook. And they're both at least 3% TS higher than WB is now too. And they average half the TOs per minute WB does. It's really pretty astounding, and it's definitely enough to keep him away from a top 25 list for this season.

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