Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work?

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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#41 » by nikster » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:07 pm

RRyder823 wrote:
EricAnderson wrote:
Pointgod wrote:Because it’s a fool’s gold way of trying to build a contender. You’re more likely to build a losing culture than a championship team. It’s the antithesis of putting out a competitive product. Let’s look at the Sixers first round picks since 2013.

2013-Michael Carter Williams
2014-Joel Embiid, Alfred Payton
2015-Jahlil Okafor
2016-Ben Simmons, Timothy Lawawu Caboret, Furkam Korzmaz
2017-Markelle Fultz
2018-Mikael Bridges (traded to Phoenix in a disastrous trade), Landry Shamet
2019-Ty Jerome (traded away)
2020-Tyrese Maxey

Excluding Tyrese Maxey, of all the first round picks over 7 drafts only 3 are still on the team. Only two allstars which considering the top 10 and top 5 picks they had. Now some people might say that the process worked because you got a MVP candidate out of it but 12 first round picks and 6 lottery picks (including 5 top 10 picks, 2 number one overall and 2 number 3 picks) should be getting better results than treadmill team and multiple second round exits. The idea that you can just suck to a championship without having to actually build a complimentary roster or winning culture is idiotic.


That doesn’t prove anything about tanking not working it just proves it didn’t work becuse they missed on all those draft picks.

The losing culture thing is BS.

People said the same thing about Booker.

Durant lost his first few years in OKC.

You know how you end losing culture? You get better players
You're confusing a "losing culture" with "bad".

A team can improve and players can refine their skills from "bad"

An environmental that encourages a general apathy torwards refining you're skills and/or then developing bad habits not conducive to winning which are hard to break is a "losing culture".

Those are not the same thing and you don't just change the latter on a whim

(whether that was Philly or not I'm not sure. I'm not in their locker room)
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When the Suns drafted booker they proceeded to have 4 straight seasons without cracking 25 wins. I dont understand how that isnt a losing culture
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#42 » by madmaxmedia » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:08 pm

The Process 'works' in that purposely fielding horrible teams for many years will give you a lot of high draft picks. Everything else after that is execution and to a good degree luck (with lottery and draft class quality.)

Whether it's a practical/viable/constructive/entertaining/economical long-term strategy is a different and somewhat subjective conversation. I would never pay money to watch a team in the middle of a multi-year tank process, but as long as the team can sell enough tickets to be financially viable then I guess supertanking is an option.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#43 » by madmaxmedia » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm

nikster wrote:
RRyder823 wrote:
EricAnderson wrote:
That doesn’t prove anything about tanking not working it just proves it didn’t work becuse they missed on all those draft picks.

The losing culture thing is BS.

People said the same thing about Booker.

Durant lost his first few years in OKC.

You know how you end losing culture? You get better players
You're confusing a "losing culture" with "bad".

A team can improve and players can refine their skills from "bad"

An environmental that encourages a general apathy torwards refining you're skills and/or then developing bad habits not conducive to winning which are hard to break is a "losing culture".

Those are not the same thing and you don't just change the latter on a whim

(whether that was Philly or not I'm not sure. I'm not in their locker room)
Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

When the Suns drafted booker they proceeded to have 4 straight seasons without cracking 25 wins. I dont understand how that isnt a losing culture

I think it's just that they weren't good enough yet, and he was too young and still developing, for them to win more games.

Adding Chris Paul helped a lot, which lends support to the idea of needing to establish a 'winning culture'. OTOH, maybe you can make the argument that the thing to do is to suck for 4 years, amass lottery picks/young players, and THEN add a couple of key veterans and that head coach to complete your team. And sometimes that's just what happens organically as well.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#44 » by elchengue20 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:14 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:If a team who is in the Playoffs consistently, had the 1st seed this season, has won series, has been 1 game away from making the ECF twice its pereceived as this huge failure, then the process surely worked well enough

Failure is not making the Playoffs in multiple years like Kings or Knicks, or live in eternal mediocrity like Hornets or Pelicans.

The Process ended in 2016. They've got 2 first round exits and 2 second round exits so far in the five years since. At what point do we start talking about eternal mediocrity instead of hyping up 2nd round exits like they are some great accomplishments.


Embiid and Simmons are a result of the Process. Even the Harris trade was made with assets gained during the process. The team also had Jimmy B thanks to assets gains during the process. Plus other assets were equally waisted like the Kings pick in trading up for Fultz.

Everything you sayed is really really stupid and shortsighted so yeah lets just leave it at that.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#45 » by Pointgod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:14 pm

EricAnderson wrote:
Pointgod wrote:Because it’s a fool’s gold way of trying to build a contender. You’re more likely to build a losing culture than a championship team. It’s the antithesis of putting out a competitive product. Let’s look at the Sixers first round picks since 2013.

2013-Michael Carter Williams
2014-Joel Embiid, Alfred Payton
2015-Jahlil Okafor
2016-Ben Simmons, Timothy Lawawu Caboret, Furkam Korzmaz
2017-Markelle Fultz
2018-Mikael Bridges (traded to Phoenix in a disastrous trade), Landry Shamet
2019-Ty Jerome (traded away)
2020-Tyrese Maxey

Excluding Tyrese Maxey, of all the first round picks over 7 drafts only 3 are still on the team. Only two allstars which considering the top 10 and top 5 picks they had. Now some people might say that the process worked because you got a MVP candidate out of it but 12 first round picks and 6 lottery picks (including 5 top 10 picks, 2 number one overall and 2 number 3 picks) should be getting better results than treadmill team and multiple second round exits. The idea that you can just suck to a championship without having to actually build a complimentary roster or winning culture is idiotic.


That doesn’t prove anything about tanking not working it just proves it didn’t work becuse they missed on all those draft picks.

The losing culture thing is BS.

People said the same thing about Booker.

Durant lost his first few years in OKC.

You know how you end losing culture? You get better players


Well if every team hit on their draft picks we’d have a completely different NBA. This is a laughable example of moving goal posts. The whole argument of the Process cultists is that you tank to give yourself as many chances to draft a franchise altering player. Well the 76ers took that strategy to the extreme and despite getting 2 number one overall picks, two number 3 picks and 2 top 10 picks (Im not even counting the 11th overall pick) the best came out with is two flawed allstars. Look Embiid is legit but you’d expect a lot more talent to come out of this process considering how it was sold.

Losing culture is not bs. Just ask the Kings, Timberwolves and perennial lottery teams. Not only does losing culture turn off free agents, it creates a poor environment for young players.

And you bring up a good point about Booker. You can look at OKC and Phoenix as two teams who went in opposite directions. Phoenix didn’t tank to get better players they TRADED for Chris Paul and are now in the WCF. OKC was in the playoffs last year and decided to purposely get worse. OKC could have been where the Suns are 2 seasons from now the only way they’ll be in the WCF is to buy tickets.

We can literally look at the teams that have been in the finals since the Process and compare the path to get there. Tanking isn’t what got them there.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#46 » by Threezus » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:15 pm

I mean wouldn't the team they just went against prove it sorta does if done right? But even then the Sixers are yearly contenders for a chance at the title so i don't see how theirs isn't working either.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#47 » by Jadoogar » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:19 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
The_Hater wrote:Because the anti-tanking crowd use a very narrow minded thought process on whether or not it worked. Did they win a title or not? They think this makes them look smart when the exact opposite is true.


Nah it was because the Trust the Process people were extremely smug and guaranteed tanking was the only way forward. They laughed at "treadmill" teams and it's very fitting this is where they ended up.


I didn’t get that impression at all. What are your examples of this?

I think that fans on opposing teams were just up in arms that they were so blatantly open about their intended direction. Tanking teams at least used to pretend that they were trying, even when they weren’t.

But whatever.


You must have forgotten the Church of Hinkie people.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#48 » by Pointgod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:21 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
Nah it was because the Trust the Process people were extremely smug and guaranteed tanking was the only way forward. They laughed at "treadmill" teams and it's very fitting this is where they ended up.


I didn’t get that impression at all. What are your examples of this?

I think that fans on opposing teams were just up in arms that they were so blatantly open about their intended direction. Tanking teams at least used to pretend that they were trying, even when they weren’t.

But whatever.


You must have forgotten the Church of Hinkie people.


They’ve now been converted to the cult of Presti
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#49 » by G35 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:22 pm

EricAnderson wrote:Some people are using this as an agenda against tanking and the “process”

It wasn’t the process that was wrong it was the execution.

If the Sixers hit on any high pick outside of Embiid wheter a Tatum or Booker and then they traded away Bridges you’re looking at a team that steamrolls though the playoffs and is a probable dynasty.

As bad as so many of the high picks were they still had a legit shot with some luck to win a title 2 years ago and this year had a legit shot with how wide open everything was simply because of how good Embiid is and how much of a difference it makes when you have a top 5 player

If anything it shows it’s a good idea to give yourself that many opportunities to draft high and if you hit on even just 2 cornerstone pieces out of 5 or 6 you could become a contender.



This is the same logic that is applied in so many areas and they have two responses:

"Its not the idea that is wrong, its that the wrong people were in charge"

or

"You need to rub more money on the problem"
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#50 » by collidingNeurons » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:32 pm

HoopsterJones wrote:It isn’t a good example. The Sixers have been unable to get over the hump due to injuries the past few post seasons and just laying an egg this postseason.

The Suns are in the WCF and are 1-0. They tanked and drafted well by drafting Booker, Ayton, Bridges. Then traded for CP3.

Suns fan here and while you list some of the successes, you can't over look the Suns also drafted Josh Jackson, Alex Len, Marquese Chriss, and Dragan Bender in that time frame... Guess what i am getting at is team building isn't an exact science and draft picks are unpredictable , for every success any team has there's 2-3 misses...

And other than Booker, Ayton and maybe Bridges who they traded for most of the contributing players weren't drafted by the Suns
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#51 » by meekrab » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:34 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:If a team who is in the Playoffs consistently, had the 1st seed this season, has won series, has been 1 game away from making the ECF twice its pereceived as this huge failure, then the process surely worked well enough

Failure is not making the Playoffs in multiple years like Kings or Knicks, or live in eternal mediocrity like Hornets or Pelicans.

The Process ended in 2016. They've got 2 first round exits and 2 second round exits so far in the five years since. At what point do we start talking about eternal mediocrity instead of hyping up 2nd round exits like they are some great accomplishments.

At the same time we talk about the decade long eternal mediocrity of the Celtics who have done nothing since 2008 despite the greatest trade fleecing in the history of the league.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#52 » by EricAnderson » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:35 pm

Pointgod wrote:
EricAnderson wrote:
Pointgod wrote:Because it’s a fool’s gold way of trying to build a contender. You’re more likely to build a losing culture than a championship team. It’s the antithesis of putting out a competitive product. Let’s look at the Sixers first round picks since 2013.

2013-Michael Carter Williams
2014-Joel Embiid, Alfred Payton
2015-Jahlil Okafor
2016-Ben Simmons, Timothy Lawawu Caboret, Furkam Korzmaz
2017-Markelle Fultz
2018-Mikael Bridges (traded to Phoenix in a disastrous trade), Landry Shamet
2019-Ty Jerome (traded away)
2020-Tyrese Maxey

Excluding Tyrese Maxey, of all the first round picks over 7 drafts only 3 are still on the team. Only two allstars which considering the top 10 and top 5 picks they had. Now some people might say that the process worked because you got a MVP candidate out of it but 12 first round picks and 6 lottery picks (including 5 top 10 picks, 2 number one overall and 2 number 3 picks) should be getting better results than treadmill team and multiple second round exits. The idea that you can just suck to a championship without having to actually build a complimentary roster or winning culture is idiotic.


That doesn’t prove anything about tanking not working it just proves it didn’t work becuse they missed on all those draft picks.

The losing culture thing is BS.

People said the same thing about Booker.

Durant lost his first few years in OKC.

You know how you end losing culture? You get better players


Well if every team hit on their draft picks we’d have a completely different NBA. This is a laughable example of moving goal posts. The whole argument of the Process cultists is that you tank to give yourself as many chances to draft a franchise altering player. Well the 76ers took that strategy to the extreme and despite getting 2 number one overall picks, two number 3 picks and 2 top 10 picks (Im not even counting the 11th overall pick) the best came out with is two flawed allstars. Look Embiid is legit but you’d expect a lot more talent to come out of this process considering how it was sold.

Losing culture is not bs. Just ask the Kings, Timberwolves and perennial lottery teams. Not only does losing culture turn off free agents, it creates a poor environment for young players.

And you bring up a good point about Booker. You can look at OKC and Phoenix as two teams who went in opposite directions. Phoenix didn’t tank to get better players they TRADED for Chris Paul and are now in the WCF. OKC was in the playoffs last year and decided to purposely get worse. OKC could have been where the Suns are 2 seasons from now the only way they’ll be in the WCF is to buy tickets.

We can literally look at the teams that have been in the finals since the Process and compare the path to get there. Tanking isn’t what got them there.


It’s not moving the goalposts.

Whiffing on all those picks does not prove the strategy can NEVER work.

Giving yourself more chances to draft high which is always a crapshoot is not a bad thing.

If they had an actual good gm making those draft picks think of how good they could have been?

The plan gives you an extremely high ceiling if you hit

I’m not a Hinkie cultist I simply don’t mind the idea of giving yourself more swings at bat in drafting.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#53 » by BostonCouchGM » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:35 pm

most championship teams and teams that won multiple titles were built primarily via drafting well, and usually high, due to sucking (on purpose) or using high picks from sucking to get a vet. "The Process" is what every team that isn't currently a top 10 team should be doing. The reason why the process doesn't work for so many teams is because they're completely inept at drafting. CHA trades away Kobe, DET takes Kennard over Mitchell, BOS passes on Giannis for Olynyk, BOS passes on Brogdon and Siakam for Yabusele and Zizic, BOS passes on Jokic for James Young, PHI passes on Tatum for Fultz, etc etc.

CHI
MJ, Pippen, Grant, Kukoc

DET
Isiah, Dumars, Salley, Rodman

BOS
Bird, McHale, Maxwell, Ainge

Lakers
Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Green

Warriors
Steph, Klay, Green, Barnes

Spurs
Duncan, Robinson, Manu, Parker, Kawhi

*tanked stealthily once Robinson went down and were rewarded Duncan by the league when the Celtics tanked openly

all built primarily through the draft and once you have 2-3 core players it's so much easier to use draft picks to trade for stars and get FA to join you.

This is the proper and organic way to build teams that give the fans a chance to watch young men develop, go through struggles and gel as a unit. Fans are along for the ride and feel a part of the team. Now, beta stars forming super teams cheapens the experience and it's no wonder why the ratings and love for the game are down. It might not seem like it to you all in your echo chambers on realgm, reddit and twitter but that's not real life.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#54 » by ConSarnit » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:35 pm

Tanking can be a viable strategy but it’s a 2 part equation:

High lotto picks + good management

Post-Hinkie 6’ers management doesn’t have a stellar track record. They caved to league pressure and cut the “process” when it was only about 50% completed.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#55 » by BK_2020 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:36 pm

meekrab wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
elchengue20 wrote:If a team who is in the Playoffs consistently, had the 1st seed this season, has won series, has been 1 game away from making the ECF twice its pereceived as this huge failure, then the process surely worked well enough

Failure is not making the Playoffs in multiple years like Kings or Knicks, or live in eternal mediocrity like Hornets or Pelicans.

The Process ended in 2016. They've got 2 first round exits and 2 second round exits so far in the five years since. At what point do we start talking about eternal mediocrity instead of hyping up 2nd round exits like they are some great accomplishments.

At the same time we talk about the decade long eternal mediocrity of the Celtics who have done nothing since 2008 despite the greatest trade fleecing in the history of the league.

/confetti
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#56 » by Mik317 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:36 pm

Sans maybe the Bucks each of the remaining teams success stem from having lots of picks. Trae (although out hurt Hunter) was a top 10 pick..and if Cam pans out or not, that had multiple years of being bad. The Clippers cashed in with SGA and a ton of their picks for PG. The Suns were right there with the Sixers in being bad up until the start of the bubble lol.

The key is once you get the guys is to surround them w/ the right people. Thanks to outside fans whining getting to Silver/Harris they jettisoned Hinkie, then hired Colangelo who was so insecure he rushed **** and go caught with his pants down; leaving Brett to run the ship despite being maybe 2 years beyond his own expiration date, which then led to no one wanting to take the helm of the rotting ship which led to Elton and him **** up. Honestly the fact that this team is even in the spot they are as frustrating and annoying as it is says a lot. We have **** up damn near every decision outside of Embiid...and yet we are still in contention. That alone shows you that if you get that one guy you are set. Iggy was not that. Jrue was not that guy...

again I think Hinkie went too far in some regards and honestly sucked balls at the most important part of a rebuild...drafting but the idea is very sound. Not for everyone. Some teams aren't as down bad as we were at the start of the process and not every team is in a market that can afford to do so. Its going to be interesting in seeing how quickly Presti attempts to get things going in OKC. Their fanbase seems on board now...but he doesn't have the philly market to back him up. But even still he's doing the right way and isn't getting any flack for it and nor should he.

The ugly truth is that if you don't have a top tier guy in the NBA then you are basically wasting your time. As **** up as we are and as fleeting as his health may be....we do at the moment. That alone is worth the 2-3 years of bad basketball....of which I honestly didn't even find that bad. We had stupidly high hopes but those years were fun IMO. The Doug Collins era was pain.

So while I am a pile of salt and very butt mad after that trash fire last night. I'd do the process all over again if it comes to it. Unless you are a destination city; its still the best (NOT THE ONLY) way to do it IMO.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#57 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:43 pm

The Suns and Hawks tanked, the Suns tanked like their lives depended on it and blew pick after pick after pick and still came out the other side.

Once they canned Hinkie the process was over, who knows if he takes Simmons or does what Ainge did and trades down to 2-3 to acquire more assets? Nobody will ever know, what we do know is the problems start and end with taking Simmons, they had to take Fultz to make up for Simmons inability to create in the halfcourt. They had a layup with Bridges, but traded him for Smith & a pick to help them get Harris, who they needed for scoring because Fultz wasn't working out. Jimmy Butler stays if they offer him the 5th year, but they can't because they have to max out Ben, and Ben & Jimmy don't work well together.

Almost every bad move can be traced to Simmons, who right now isn't even top 5 in his draft class anymore. I think tanking is fine, we never actually tanked, we were just bad and tried to compete which is even worse than tanking :lol:
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#58 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:47 pm

BK_2020 wrote:I guess the point is having a bunch of picks and cap space doesn't exempt you from having to use them wisely.

The entire point of the process was to build in tolerance for busts/bad picks.

The process worked wonderfully in that regard.

But Philly also seemingly went a bit over the top when it came to drafting busts and bums.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#59 » by The Rebel » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:00 pm

EricAnderson wrote:
The Rebel wrote:
EricAnderson wrote:[]

No because my point wasn’t that the Sixers had to hit on everything it was that if they just hit on one more pick and nailed only 2 high picks out of 6 or 7 they’d be a dynasty

The process was about giving yourself as many chances of high picks to get those top of the league player you need to win titles.

The plan was good the execution was not.

Every team that tanks multiple years has the same plan, it goes back to the 70s at least and has been done at least 3 times openly in the last 20 years. Not a single 1 has resulted in winning a championship in the last 50 years. We can talk coulda, woulda, shoulda all you want but the results show that tanking like that is far from a guarantee, and in fact has no better results than building any other way.


Who said it works better then anything else?

I’m arguing with people who say under no circumstances could it ever possibly work



Well it is the wrong time to say that considering the Hawks are just coming out of their own process this season after tanking for 3 years while renting cap space for draft picks and developing guys.

Tanking can work, but the entire way the 76ers went about it was why people hate the mention of the process. Not to mention the way they sold it as if they had invented something new and were smarter than everybody in the room, when the Nuggets and Thunder had both done the exact same thing in the 10 years prior to Hinkie starting the process.

That is not even getting into drafting injured players and bragging that they were going to stay bad until they were ready to get better.
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Re: Why are people using the Sixers as an example of why tanking doesn’t work? 

Post#60 » by Harry Garris » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:14 pm

BK_2020 wrote:If the Sixers picked Ingram instead of Simmons, and stays at #3 and picks, I don't know, Fox or something, do they win a ring?


If they had Ingram and De'Aaron Fox instead of Ben Simmons yeah they absolutely win a title. Probably this year.
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