HOF chances for Khris Middleton

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Do you see Khris being inducted?

He's really far from that
73
36%
Needs another championship as a key player
20
10%
Needs another championship and a few more All-Star/All-NBA
50
25%
Just needs a few more All-Star/All-NBA
60
30%
 
Total votes: 203

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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#41 » by Plutonashfan » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:58 am

Why no option about winning a gold medal?
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#42 » by NyKnicks1714 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:05 am

He might have a chance of he makes three more All-star teams.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#43 » by ANTETOKOUNBROS » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:19 am

Winsome Gerbil wrote:This..is a poor question.

He's not even in the conversation. And he wouldn't be unless the Bucks launch a minidynasty here. He's a 30yr old 2x All Star with no All NBAs or other accolades, and a 16.8ppg average and 16.5PER. That's just a guy, a good solid guy, but just a guy.

DeMar DeRozan has 4 All Stars, 2 All NBAs, a career 20.1ppg average, and a career 18.5 PER. He won't make it either.

Eddie Jones was a 3x All Star with 1 All NBA and 3 All Defensive teams, a career 16.7PER, and no chance.

Peja Stojakovic , 3x All Star 1xAll NBA, 1x champ, 17.0ppg career 17.1PER, not going either unless snuck in as an international gu
y.

Middleton is just a good scoring guard in an era when scoring is really easy. He was 29th in the league in scoring this year. He wasn't his team's best player, nor likely even the best shooting guard on the floor in the Finals. He would need year after year of repeat success at the same level to even get in the conversation.

Note that All NBA's always tell a much better story of who is truly elite than All Stars.


I agree in spirit somewhat but could you at least pick guys who have starred as the number 2 guy the way Middleton has en route to a chip? Those guys have won nothing unless they were at the end of the bench. And it wasn't as though Middleton was some insignificant piece this post season for the Bucks.

I think he will need a few more all star games/all-nba teams to really cement it.

Even before these finals, I have always put Middleton as comparable to Klay Thompson, with Khris being not as good a shooter but being better at playmaking and push defensively.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#44 » by Winsome Gerbil » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:48 am

ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:This..is a poor question.

He's not even in the conversation. And he wouldn't be unless the Bucks launch a minidynasty here. He's a 30yr old 2x All Star with no All NBAs or other accolades, and a 16.8ppg average and 16.5PER. That's just a guy, a good solid guy, but just a guy.

DeMar DeRozan has 4 All Stars, 2 All NBAs, a career 20.1ppg average, and a career 18.5 PER. He won't make it either.

Eddie Jones was a 3x All Star with 1 All NBA and 3 All Defensive teams, a career 16.7PER, and no chance.

Peja Stojakovic , 3x All Star 1xAll NBA, 1x champ, 17.0ppg career 17.1PER, not going either unless snuck in as an international gu
y.

Middleton is just a good scoring guard in an era when scoring is really easy. He was 29th in the league in scoring this year. He wasn't his team's best player, nor likely even the best shooting guard on the floor in the Finals. He would need year after year of repeat success at the same level to even get in the conversation.

Note that All NBA's always tell a much better story of who is truly elite than All Stars.


I agree in spirit somewhat but could you at least pick guys who have starred as the number 2 guy the way Middleton has en route to a chip? Those guys have won nothing unless they were at the end of the bench. And it wasn't as though Middleton was some insignificant piece this post season for the Bucks.

I think he will need a few more all star games/all-nba teams to really cement it.

Even before these finals, I have always put Middleton as comparable to Klay Thompson, with Khris being not as good a shooter but being better at playmaking and push defensively.


Klay Thompson gets overrated all the time, to the point the comparison feels outrageous while it's really not, and yet at only 1 1/2 years older (and having missed a long stretch now, so he's at about the same number of games) he's a 5x All Star, 2x All NBAer, and 3x Champion who of course basks in glow of a dynastic team and gets major bumps for his association with and team defining chemistry with Steph Curry. In short, he mattered even if the overall package might not have been that special.

This idea, conveniently and inaccurately pushed, that somehow every championship team's #2 is a HOF has nothing to do with history. To the degree that many championship team's #2s are HOFers, its because they were HOFs before and without that title, and made it happen with their greatness. Unworthies didn't suddenly become HOFers because of a title. JKidd is not in the HOF because of the title he won with Dirk. There was only 1 HOF on that team that year, but there was an old guy who was going to make it too. Nobody from Hakeem's first run was a HOFer, and Drexler already was when he joined the team midseason the next year for title #2. The 2004 Pistons had to wait to even get Big Ben in, and they still haven't gotten Billups in, and they were, by Least standards, a semi-dynasty. There's basically no HOFers at all with Middleton's profile. Which is again why I say, at age 30, playing for a small market team, it will take the Bucks turning into a mini-dynasty to get just another good SG from his era the extra glow he needs to even be considered.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#45 » by ANTETOKOUNBROS » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:55 am

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:This..is a poor question.

He's not even in the conversation. And he wouldn't be unless the Bucks launch a minidynasty here. He's a 30yr old 2x All Star with no All NBAs or other accolades, and a 16.8ppg average and 16.5PER. That's just a guy, a good solid guy, but just a guy.

DeMar DeRozan has 4 All Stars, 2 All NBAs, a career 20.1ppg average, and a career 18.5 PER. He won't make it either.

Eddie Jones was a 3x All Star with 1 All NBA and 3 All Defensive teams, a career 16.7PER, and no chance.

Peja Stojakovic , 3x All Star 1xAll NBA, 1x champ, 17.0ppg career 17.1PER, not going either unless snuck in as an international gu
y.

Middleton is just a good scoring guard in an era when scoring is really easy. He was 29th in the league in scoring this year. He wasn't his team's best player, nor likely even the best shooting guard on the floor in the Finals. He would need year after year of repeat success at the same level to even get in the conversation.

Note that All NBA's always tell a much better story of who is truly elite than All Stars.


I agree in spirit somewhat but could you at least pick guys who have starred as the number 2 guy the way Middleton has en route to a chip? Those guys have won nothing unless they were at the end of the bench. And it wasn't as though Middleton was some insignificant piece this post season for the Bucks.

I think he will need a few more all star games/all-nba teams to really cement it.

Even before these finals, I have always put Middleton as comparable to Klay Thompson, with Khris being not as good a shooter but being better at playmaking and push defensively.


Klay Thompson gets overrated all the time, to the point the comparison feels outrageous while it's really not, and yet at only 1 1/2 years older (and having missed a long stretch now, so he's at about the same number of games) he's a 5x All Star, 2x All NBAer, and 3x Champion who of course basks in glow of a dynastic team and gets major bumps for his association with and team defining chemistry with Steph Curry. In short, he mattered even if the overall package might not have been that special.

This idea, conveniently and inaccurately pushed, that somehow every championship team's #2 is a HOF has nothing to do with history. To the degree that many championship team's #2s are HOFers, its because they were HOFs before and without that title, and made it happen with their greatness. Unworthies didn't suddenly become HOFers because of a title. JKidd is not in the HOF because of the title he won with Dirk. There was only 1 HOF on that team that year, but there was an old guy who was going to make it too. Nobody from Hakeem's first run was a HOFer, and Drexler already was when he joined the team midseason the next year for title #2. The 2004 Pistons had to wait to even get Big Ben in, and they still haven't gotten Billups in, and they were, by Least standards, a semi-dynasty. There's basically no HOFers at all with Middleton's profile. Which is again why I say, at age 30, playing for a small market team, it will take the Bucks turning into a mini-dynasty to get just another good SG from his era the extra glow he needs to even be considered.
]

Jkidd was washed when he was in his championship stint with Mavs. He would have made it without.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#46 » by Winsome Gerbil » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:03 am

ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:
ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:
I agree in spirit somewhat but could you at least pick guys who have starred as the number 2 guy the way Middleton has en route to a chip? Those guys have won nothing unless they were at the end of the bench. And it wasn't as though Middleton was some insignificant piece this post season for the Bucks.

I think he will need a few more all star games/all-nba teams to really cement it.

Even before these finals, I have always put Middleton as comparable to Klay Thompson, with Khris being not as good a shooter but being better at playmaking and push defensively.


Klay Thompson gets overrated all the time, to the point the comparison feels outrageous while it's really not, and yet at only 1 1/2 years older (and having missed a long stretch now, so he's at about the same number of games) he's a 5x All Star, 2x All NBAer, and 3x Champion who of course basks in glow of a dynastic team and gets major bumps for his association with and team defining chemistry with Steph Curry. In short, he mattered even if the overall package might not have been that special.

This idea, conveniently and inaccurately pushed, that somehow every championship team's #2 is a HOF has nothing to do with history. To the degree that many championship team's #2s are HOFers, its because they were HOFs before and without that title, and made it happen with their greatness. Unworthies didn't suddenly become HOFers because of a title. JKidd is not in the HOF because of the title he won with Dirk. There was only 1 HOF on that team that year, but there was an old guy who was going to make it too. Nobody from Hakeem's first run was a HOFer, and Drexler already was when he joined the team midseason the next year for title #2. The 2004 Pistons had to wait to even get Big Ben in, and they still haven't gotten Billups in, and they were, by Least standards, a semi-dynasty. There's basically no HOFers at all with Middleton's profile. Which is again why I say, at age 30, playing for a small market team, it will take the Bucks turning into a mini-dynasty to get just another good SG from his era the extra glow he needs to even be considered.
]

Jkidd was washed when he was in his championship stint with Mavs. He would have made it without.


Yeah, that was what I was trying to say. There was only 1 HOF playing at that level on that team by that time.

That title, Hakeem's titles, feel like the comparisons. But as far as borderline talents go the Spurs Parker/Manu duo might make some sense. Except, again, they did it year after year after year and filled up fingers with rings. That sort of thing can get guys in who wouldn't make it otherwise.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#47 » by Yeggo Poleggo » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:14 am

Middleton will make the All Star team next year with a chance at an All NBA nod. He still has another year or two of high playoff contention basketball. I also expect his jersey and brand sales to shoot up a healthy amount.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#48 » by turnmeup88 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:30 am

JustLucky wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
turnmeup88 wrote:I think the answer has to be just a couple more all-star appearances.

I'm curious to know say how many 5x all-stars with a chip as a relevant player are NOT in the HoF? I think 4-5 all stars seems to be the threshold to get in now.


Here are the guys with 4-5 allstar games (I left giannis off lol)

Zelmo Beaty
Chauncey Billups
Carl Braun
Jimmy Butler
Mack Calvin
Billy Cunningham
Brad Daugherty
Wayne Embry
Donnie Freeman
Tom Gola
Gail Goodrich
Tim Hardaway
Connie Hawkins
Spencer Haywood
Al Horford
Dennis Johnson
Gus Johnson
Marques Johnson
Bobby Jones
Sam Jones
Larry Kenon
Rudy LaRusso
Kawhi Leonard
Kevin Love
Maurice Lucas
Pete Maravich
Bob McAdoo
Reggie Miller
Sidney Moncrief
Chris Mullin
Don Ohl
Andy Phillip
Charlie Scott
Gene Shue
Ralph Simpson
David Thompson
Klay Thompson
Rudy Tomjanovich
Wes Unseld
John Wall
Bobby Wanzer
Chris Webber
Paul Westphal
Vin Baker
Walt Bellamy
Otis Birdsong
Rolando Blackman
Ron Boone
Roger Brown
Joe Caldwell
Tom Chambers
Maurice Cheeks
Doug Collins
DeMarcus Cousins
Bob Dandridge
Bob Davies
DeMar DeRozan
Joel Embiid
Dick Garmaker
Johnny Green
Anfernee Hardaway
Mel Hutchins
Warren Jabali
Larry Jones
Bernard King
Bill Laimbeer
Clyde Lovellette
Shawn Marion
George Mikan
Paul Millsap
Earl Monroe
Willie Naulls
Bob Netolicky
Jim Pollard


ya looking at this list 5 allstars is not enough he needs 6 or another chip or two. hes 29 so that means he needs 4 allstars in the next 5 years that does not seem very likely his best chance is alot more championships.

I very highly doubt any non international player with 2 allstars at age 29 made the hall. Its not gonna happen



This however is not the list of 4-5 time all-star who are NOT in the HoF and eligible.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#49 » by skones » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:34 am

IAMZOOTED2 wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:
IAMZOOTED2 wrote:he aint first ballot yet, but he could be. Id say jrue usurped him as second fiddle... for now anyway

Ball was literally in Middleton's hands to end every series. Jrue was cool but nah.


Midds got robbed this season from an all-star selection. He got robbed last season of an all-NBA selection. Those will be pretty hard to make up for in his twilight years when talking hall accolades. Maybe he could add a gold medal though.


there's a case to be made that the ball should have been in Jrue's hands. Not sure, they were both mad inconsistent.


There isn't a case to be made that the ball should have been in Jrue's hands. I just don't think you watched many of the Bucks playoff games. Middleton hit shot after shot after shot in HUGE moments throughout the championship run. He'd wholly earned the ball.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#50 » by picc » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:38 am

I don't think he was the clear second best player on the team. Definitely could argue it. Could also argue Jrue's defense and playmaking made him more valuable. Neither are consistent with their scoring, though Middleton obviously is better at that, but Jrue's defense and passing is reliable to show up every game.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#51 » by IAMZOOTED2 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:58 am

skones wrote:
IAMZOOTED2 wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Ball was literally in Middleton's hands to end every series. Jrue was cool but nah.


Midds got robbed this season from an all-star selection. He got robbed last season of an all-NBA selection. Those will be pretty hard to make up for in his twilight years when talking hall accolades. Maybe he could add a gold medal though.


there's a case to be made that the ball should have been in Jrue's hands. Not sure, they were both mad inconsistent.


There isn't a case to be made that the ball should have been in Jrue's hands. I just don't think you watched many of the Bucks playoff games. Middleton hit shot after shot after shot in HUGE moments throughout the championship run. He'd wholly earned the ball.


I disagree, but that's cool. Are you saying then, that you consider the Bucks' pecking order to be Giannis, Khris, and then Jrue?
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#52 » by righterwriter » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:09 am

I don't see All-NBA as essential to make the HOF. He might not be a top-3 SF each year, but that doesn't exclude him from having a HOF resume.

I think if MIL wins another ring that his career could be seen as similar to Joe Dumars, a supporting guy who had big moments and collected a couple rings.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#53 » by brutalitops » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:10 am

right now? nope

Snag a couple more all star appearances? Probably
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#54 » by JN61 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:20 am

Zero chance.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#55 » by Winsome Gerbil » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:11 am

righterwriter wrote:I don't see All-NBA as essential to make the HOF. He might not be a top-3 SF each year, but that doesn't exclude him from having a HOF resume.

I think if MIL wins another ring that his career could be seen as similar to Joe Dumars, a supporting guy who had big moments and collected a couple rings.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html


..and was a 6x All Star, 3x All-NBA, 5x All Defense, and considered one of the best defensive players of his era?

Again, Middleton needs a LOT more to get in any serious conversation. There was not one person n the world who even remotely had him on a HOF radar 3 weeks ago, and scoring 1 more point than Bobby Portis while watching an all timer dump in 50 in a deciding Game 6 isn't going to come anywhere close to making up that ground. You can make arguments for half a dozen other SGs in the league being able to notch a chip as Giannis's wingman this year (doesn't mean they would have, but certainly have the talent). Being a distant second fiddle is just not that big a HOF calling card unless you can really sustain it year after year and rack up lower tier accolades.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#56 » by righterwriter » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:07 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
righterwriter wrote:I don't see All-NBA as essential to make the HOF. He might not be a top-3 SF each year, but that doesn't exclude him from having a HOF resume.

I think if MIL wins another ring that his career could be seen as similar to Joe Dumars, a supporting guy who had big moments and collected a couple rings.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html


..and was a 6x All Star, 3x All-NBA, 5x All Defense, and considered one of the best defensive players of his era?

Again, Middleton needs a LOT more to get in any serious conversation. There was not one person n the world who even remotely had him on a HOF radar 3 weeks ago, and scoring 1 more point than Bobby Portis while watching an all timer dump in 50 in a deciding Game 6 isn't going to come anywhere close to making up that ground. You can make arguments for half a dozen other SGs in the league being able to notch a chip as Giannis's wingman this year (doesn't mean they would have, but certainly have the talent). Being a distant second fiddle is just not that big a HOF calling card unless you can really sustain it year after year and rack up lower tier accolades.


Middleton is a very good defender and had a huge role in the Bucks winning it all with numerous big time performances. He put up 24/6/5 in the Finals and about there throughout the playoffs. That's what Dumars did.

Does Isiah Thomas (the Celtics version) get more HOF credit because he made All-NBA and two all-star games?
How about Kemba Walker, who put up big stats on bad teams to earn his All-NBA and four all-star teams?

It goes well beyond these little designations and comes down to just watching the guy play night in and night out at a very high level and then excelling when it matters most. Closing your eyes and imagining Middleton involves huge shots throughout the playoffs and being a damned good #2 to Giannis (who called him out as being the person who made him great, btw). It's not "well, he didn't make that many all-star teams."
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#57 » by hauntedcomputer » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:58 pm

HOF includes college and international play. Somebody like Tom Gola with weak pro stats gets in because he's still the all-time college rebound leader 65 years later. Laettner was widely hated, made only one all-star team, but was on the Dream Team and had one of the greatest college careers ever. He's in with a career average of 12.8. Middleton didn't even make first-team all-conference. He might get a gold medal, but lots of guys do. So it's up to his NBA performance. Which is good but far, far from great.

So I'll agree with the 0.3 chance.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#58 » by flranger » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:36 pm

His Basketball Reference similarity scores compare him favorably through first 8 years to players like Raef Lafrentz, Tristan Thompson, and Tobias Harris.

Not a Hall of Fame player.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#59 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:58 pm

ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:This..is a poor question.

He's not even in the conversation. And he wouldn't be unless the Bucks launch a minidynasty here. He's a 30yr old 2x All Star with no All NBAs or other accolades, and a 16.8ppg average and 16.5PER. That's just a guy, a good solid guy, but just a guy.

DeMar DeRozan has 4 All Stars, 2 All NBAs, a career 20.1ppg average, and a career 18.5 PER. He won't make it either.

Eddie Jones was a 3x All Star with 1 All NBA and 3 All Defensive teams, a career 16.7PER, and no chance.

Peja Stojakovic , 3x All Star 1xAll NBA, 1x champ, 17.0ppg career 17.1PER, not going either unless snuck in as an international gu
y.

Middleton is just a good scoring guard in an era when scoring is really easy. He was 29th in the league in scoring this year. He wasn't his team's best player, nor likely even the best shooting guard on the floor in the Finals. He would need year after year of repeat success at the same level to even get in the conversation.

Note that All NBA's always tell a much better story of who is truly elite than All Stars.


I agree in spirit somewhat but could you at least pick guys who have starred as the number 2 guy the way Middleton has en route to a chip? Those guys have won nothing unless they were at the end of the bench. And it wasn't as though Middleton was some insignificant piece this post season for the Bucks.

I think he will need a few more all star games/all-nba teams to really cement it.

Even before these finals, I have always put Middleton as comparable to Klay Thompson, with Khris being not as good a shooter but being better at playmaking and push defensively.


Winning a title isn't as powerful in hall voting as I think you're implying. Making an allstar game historically seems to be the biggest deciding factor. Titles absolutely matter, but generally you have to be the best player or win multiples for it to really move the needle.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton 

Post#60 » by OdomFan » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:00 pm

Well that depends on what the Bucks do next. If they go on to repeat and maybe threepeat with him being a big part of it then sure he has a good argument for the Hall of Fame. If not then nah. 1 ring for a guy in his position is not enough to get in imo.
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