Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

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Do They get into the hall of Fame if they didn't spend their whole careers on a contender?

Yes
63
50%
No
33
26%
50/50
29
23%
 
Total votes: 125

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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#21 » by Slim Charlez » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:42 pm

AdagioPace wrote:Manu's achievements with Virtus Bologna and Argentina would be too much to ignore even if he played for a **** team. I think he would also manage to get a couple all-stars appearances.


Parker has no business being mentioned in these kind of hypotheticals


The guy was a 6x all star and 4x all NBA, how does he have no business in these hypotheticals? He might've ended up with more individual accolades if lets say he ends up going to Boston and spending the bulk of his career out east.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#22 » by Harry Garris » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:44 pm

Manu would for the 2004 gold medal and international play. I don't think there's any chance Tony Parker sees the hall of fame without his Spurs championships.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#23 » by DoctorX » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:50 pm

Manu would get in due to his international play. Parker still has a chance to get in. I think even if he didn't play for the Spurs he would have still ended up as a 6 time all-star. His scoring might have gone up even more in the range of 25-30 a game for a few seasons if he didn't play for the Spurs. For a period of 10 years he was the fastest man in the NBA.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#24 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:28 pm

AMW27 wrote:Both Parker and Ginoboli are both most likely a lock for the hall of Fame. If both of them didn't play their entire careers on a title contender do you believe the would be considered hall of famers now?

For me if they did get in it wouldn't have been an automatic lock for them.

Want to hear everyone's opinion.


In general for all but the ultra-elite, context matters a great deal for how good of a career you have.
The same is true in all walks of life.

So in that sense, yes, this sort of thing matters for most.

I will say that Ginobili being the star of the only team to win Gold Medal at the Olympics other than the USA while the USA sent NBA players essentially made him an instant Hall of Famer, so he's a bit different but yeah, Parker is more you classic guy who could have easily missed the Hall if he'd been on some other team.

But given what he did in his NBA career, he deserves entry and deserves it more than some individualist talents in this team game.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#25 » by Slim Charlez » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:35 pm

Harry Garris wrote:Manu would for the 2004 gold medal and international play. I don't think there's any chance Tony Parker sees the hall of fame without his Spurs championships.


Who's to say Parker doesn't receive more individual accolades if he's somewhere where he has to carry more offensive load than in SA? Vince Carter never achieved anything either and he's probably a HOFer
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#26 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:35 pm

Johnny Tomala wrote:Parker would also be in HOF just for his international career.


I don't think I'd agree with that, but maybe you can point to something I'm not thinking of.

Since he came to the NBA from a young age, his professional career is largely just an NBA thing, so you're talking about him representing France, and France made its mark on the Olympics in 2000 and 2020 - meaning the Parker years are a gaping hole where medals should have been.

I wouldn't say this damns Parker as a player, but my (granted, American) perspective is largely looking at the list of teams winning Olympic medals when evaluating international careers in the modern (every truly great player comes to the NBA) era.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#27 » by NeoDragonKnight » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:25 pm

Manu on literally any other team would have most likely been their franchise player, he was that good.
Parker, I dont think so.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#28 » by MrBigShot » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:38 pm

Health aside Manu could've been a perennial all star putting up 25ppg+ on a different team. Just the 2004 gold medal alone is massive.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#29 » by Slim Charlez » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:39 pm

NeoDragonKnight wrote:Manu on literally any other team would have most likely been their franchise player, he was that good.
Parker, I dont think so.


Parker was still better than borderline HOF guys like Lowry for example, people are really underrating the guy on here.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#30 » by marley game » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:40 pm

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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#31 » by SK21209 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:59 pm

Manu Ginobili was not a worse player than some of his contemporaries like Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. He is arguably the best playmaking shooting guard of all time (its probably Harden, but I don't think he's actually better at it than Manu. He's just had way, way more ballhandling responsibility.)

IMO Parker is really hard to compare to his contemporaries/other point guards, his game was pretty it always felt like he was the most closely tied to the Spurs "system". There were times in the 2012-2014 range where it felt like he might be just as good as CP3 (probably wasn't true, but I remember he'd always put up big scoring numbers against the Clippers and run that offense flawlessly).
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. 

Post#32 » by jamaalstar21 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:04 pm

Manu proved over and over again in both the NBA playoffs and international tournaments (Olympic, World Cup) that he was one of the very best basketball players in the world. The "on the Spurs" thing is a wash because, while he likely wouldn't have won multiple titles, he would have put up bigger stats and won more individual accolades (more all-stars, all-nba) etc.

I think this latter part is true for Parker as well. I don't know how much of a winning player he would have been in a different situation, but he probably would have been a career 20ppg scorer with more offensive freedom. He's one of the best paint-scoring guards ever...pretty absurd how insanely good Parker was in the paint. It's not like he was playing in good spacing for most of his prime either. Spurs always played 2 bigs (Rasho, Splitter etc.) The one year Parker did play in decent spacing (Danny Green and Kawhi), Parker put up 20ppg and 7apg in only 31mpg. He might have had 4-5 of those seasons as a more normally featured guard on a worse team.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#33 » by jamaalstar21 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:09 pm

marley game wrote:Image


If you're comparing Parker to Devonte Graham, hoping you made an apt comparison, I'm sorry to inform you that this couldn't be more off. Devonte Graham is an excellent outside shooter who can't for the life of him score inside the 3-point line. 70% of his FGA came from 3 last year, and he finished around the hoop at a measly 44% (one of the worst marks in the league). Parker was a poor outside shooter who took about one 3 per game, and was arguably the best finishing small guard ever. Peak Parker got more than half his offense from inside 10 feet, and finished around the rim like a big forward (career mark of 64%, career-high of 70%).

I'm sorry but this might be the worst comparison for Parker possible. Absolute opposites.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#34 » by Johnny Tomala » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:11 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Johnny Tomala wrote:Parker would also be in HOF just for his international career.


I don't think I'd agree with that, but maybe you can point to something I'm not thinking of.

Since he came to the NBA from a young age, his professional career is largely just an NBA thing, so you're talking about him representing France, and France made its mark on the Olympics in 2000 and 2020 - meaning the Parker years are a gaping hole where medals should have been.

I wouldn't say this damns Parker as a player, but my (granted, American) perspective is largely looking at the list of teams winning Olympic medals when evaluating international careers in the modern (every truly great player comes to the NBA) era.


He was Eurobasket MVP in 2013. He's got two bronze, silver, gold medal from Eurobasket. That's enough to get into HOF as international player.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. 

Post#35 » by Edrees » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:12 pm

It's kind of a difficult question to answer. It's like asking if Michael Jordan would be in the hall of fame if he didn't win any titles, scoring titles, or MVPs. well, is that even the same player we're talking about? If Parker and Ginobli weren't good enough to ever contribute to a team that was ever contending, well, they'd be a different version of themselves that didn't impact winning like the versions of themselves that did exist.

If the question really is if they spent most of their career on a team other than San Antonio would they be in the hall of fame? I'd say yes, they'd still make it because they were really good and that impact would be showcased anywhere they went. And their stats would actually probably be better than they were. Especially Ginobli's
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#36 » by Bornstellar » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:16 pm

Slim Charlez wrote:
NeoDragonKnight wrote:Manu on literally any other team would have most likely been their franchise player, he was that good.
Parker, I dont think so.


Parker was still better than borderline HOF guys like Lowry for example, people are really underrating the guy on here.


I've noticed Tony Parker is one of the most consistently underrated and disrespected players on the GB for some reason. Like I get he porked a teammtes wife and all but the guy was filthy in his prime and if anything his numbers probably suffered the most playing in the Spurs system. People forget how clutch he was in 2013 also because of Ray Allen sadly. He completely destroyed the peak DPOY Gasol era Grizzlies.

I'm not saying he's on the Magic/Steph level but I routinely see him left out of top all-time PG discussions, like he was only a product of Duncan and Pop and he didn't contribute at all to the 4 rings and FMVP he has :crazy:
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#37 » by Slim Charlez » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:17 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
marley game wrote:Image


If you're comparing Parker to Devonte Graham, hoping you made an apt comparison, I'm sorry to inform you that this couldn't be more off. Devonte Graham is an excellent outside shooter who can't for the life of him score inside the 3-point line. 70% of his FGA came from 3 last year, and he finished around the hoop at a measly 44% (one of the worst marks in the league). Parker was a poor outside shooter who took about one 3 per game, and was arguably the best finishing small guard ever. Peak Parker got more than half his offense from inside 10 feet, and finished around the rim like a big forward (career mark of 64%, career-high of 70%).

I'm sorry but this might be the worst comparison for Parker possible. Absolute opposites.


Thought he was responding to the wrong thread or something :lol: . Bizarre and straight ignorant reply to the topic.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginoboli. 

Post#38 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:38 pm

Johnny Tomala wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Johnny Tomala wrote:Parker would also be in HOF just for his international career.


I don't think I'd agree with that, but maybe you can point to something I'm not thinking of.

Since he came to the NBA from a young age, his professional career is largely just an NBA thing, so you're talking about him representing France, and France made its mark on the Olympics in 2000 and 2020 - meaning the Parker years are a gaping hole where medals should have been.

I wouldn't say this damns Parker as a player, but my (granted, American) perspective is largely looking at the list of teams winning Olympic medals when evaluating international careers in the modern (every truly great player comes to the NBA) era.


He was Eurobasket MVP in 2013. He's got two bronze, silver, gold medal from Eurobasket. That's enough to get into HOF as international player.


Is it? Not saying you're wrong, but can you give comparable examples to indicate that this is enough? Consider that in 2011 Navarro won the Eurobasket MVP and in general had far more international team success than Parker. Do you expect him to make the HOF? If he does, that's really interesting given that he clearly intended to have an NBA career and ended up with a career that I'd expect paid him a lot less than many NBA players who aren't anything close to HOF level.

Example that comes to mind: Navarro was in Memphis during Mike Conley's rookie NBA season. Conley would have end up having the far superior NBA career obviously, but also would made hundreds of millions of dollars...which is the sort of thing I'd imagine Navarro was interested when he came to the NBA. Do we really think Navarro showed he was a clearly better player than Conley?...because I don't expect anyone's talking about Conley making the Hall despite succeeding on the biggest stage where Navarro failed.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. 

Post#39 » by DoctorX » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:51 pm

Parker lead the NBA in points in the paint for good 4-5 years. He was the best finisher for a PG that I have ever seen. No PG could guard Parker one on one during his first 10-11 years in the league. I still remember during the playoffs whenever Parker would scorch an opposing PG that the opponent would switch a 6'6-6'7 guard or forward on him. OKC made that adjustment in '12 when Parker scorched Westbrook the first two games by putting Sefolosha on him and the Heat back in '13 had Lebron guard him for all of game 7.

Currently in the NBA I feel there is no PG that has Parker's quickness and finishing abilities. I will say Kyrie is probably as good of a finisher as Parker but not as fast as Parker when it comes to speed in open court and half court.
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Re: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. 

Post#40 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:53 pm

Tony Parker has 2x as many all NBA appearances as Ray Allen. You would think the opposite given how they are looked at.
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