Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated?

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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#61 » by SactoKingsFan » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:22 pm

SUPERVILLAIN wrote:Prime Cousins (albeit only for a very short period of time) was a legit top 10 calibre player. He was once an MVP candidate.

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When was Cousins an MVP candidate? I don't remember him ever being top 10 in MVP voting.

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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#62 » by Plutonashfan » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:29 pm

He probably was overrated.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#63 » by jokeboy86 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:41 pm

PD28 wrote:His career would be very different if he was drafted by a different franchise that's for sure.


I believe this as well. Mike Malone may have been building towards something but in true clown fashion the Kings fired him and I think that is when Cousins truly checked out. The Kings are a clown show and only the T-Wolves are as embarrassing because to have that many lottery picks over a sustained period of time and to have not even sniffed the playoffs the bulk of the time or build towards anything is a joke. Cousins had six different coaches and 3 different GMs when he was on the Kings, think about that.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#64 » by Harry Garris » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:20 pm

shotsquatch wrote:Injuries derailed DeMarcus' prime. He would be a top three center right now with Embiid and Jokic had things gone a little differently.


I doubt it. Cousins was one of the worst defensive centers I've ever seen play basketball. He wasn't an efficient offensive player either. Cousins was a great individual talent, he was really damn good at looking off teammates and getting his own shot, but I'm not sure what he did exactly that would help a team... you know... win games.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#65 » by Winsome Gerbil » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:44 am

Harry Garris wrote:
shotsquatch wrote:Injuries derailed DeMarcus' prime. He would be a top three center right now with Embiid and Jokic had things gone a little differently.


I doubt it. Cousins was one of the worst defensive centers I've ever seen play basketball. He wasn't an efficient offensive player either. Cousins was a great individual talent, he was really damn good at looking off teammates and getting his own shot, but I'm not sure what he did exactly that would help a team... you know... win games.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

Cousins was not Gobert, but during his prime years he only had one year --the final Sac year when the always wise Kings had decided to play him at PF alongside Kosta Koufos -- where he was a negative defensively. In fact under Malone he peaked as the 4th BEST DRPM in the entire league. He annually led the league in charges drawn. Was annually the top stealing center and one of the best defensive rebounders in the game. His teams were -3.1, -7.2 and -4.3 with him on the floor defensively in his last 3 full seasons in Sacramento.

His entire "bad defender" rep stems from casuals seeing his body language and freaking out. Until the recent "modern NBA" 3pt spamming that has made every big center look like an idiot, the worst that could be said about Boogie defensively is sometimes spent so much time complaining on the offensive side of the floor he wouldn't get back defensively.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#66 » by BarbaGrizz » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 am

Previous generation Karl Anthony Towns
Celtic Koala wrote:The only player from the 90's that would have been a top 10 player in the modern league would have been MJ and if you stretch it a bit Olajuwon.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#67 » by bubonicphoniks » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:47 am

Yes

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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#68 » by CIN-C-STAR » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:11 am

I always thought he was overrated due to his inconsistency.
He could look like the best player in the league some nights, but other nights he would hurt your team.
Which really all pointed to his mental instability imo. Dude straight up might have needed counseling or something and I'm not throwing shade there's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#69 » by CIN-C-STAR » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:22 am

Btw one of my favorite Tim Duncan moments was against Cousins and it kind of is a microcosm for his entire career pre-injury.
He started going hard against Old Ass Tim Duncan in the paint. Just shouldering the hell out of him and getting to the bucket by going through him, and it worked.
He scored a few possessions in a row and started thinking he was unstoppable. Started flexing and getting in Timmy's face.
Realizing the refs weren't going to call the game properly for whatever reason, Tim laughs him off and proceeds to start scoring on him on the other end. Then he holds his ground in the paint and swats the ball right off Cousins' head.
Spurs end up winning and then after the game Cousins tries to fight Spurs announcer Sean Elliott and got suspended for 2 games :lol:
When things were going his way he was great, but as soon as they weren't, he broke down and tried to pick a different fight.
If you've never seen it highly recommend.

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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#70 » by Saberestar » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 am

I think he was overrated.

He was not a good defender at all, when he wanted to defend properly he usually fouled so he basically was on defense trying to not make fouls and watching most of the time. And please do not give me any advances stats, I have watched him play plenty of times.

He was a GREAT one on one scorer and shot creator in his prime. He was really hard to stop in the post and he had a nice variety of moves. During a couple of seasons he was unstoppable as a scorer around the paint. He was OK as a shooter but not good enough to put him away from the block on offense.

His biggest problem was his low basketball IQ and his terrible attitude. He played for himself on both sides of the court, his awareness was not good at all. Too many risky passes, too much time holding the ball...And what about his immaturity? It was always a huge factor and forced him to make bad decisions all the time and every game.

He didn't help his team doing all the little things that are needed to win games.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#71 » by Jables » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:57 am

I remember he had an insane usage rate, like as much as Embiid or Doncic have now, and probably shooting as much as Doncic. Now there's a lot of reasons why those guys have high usage rates, I can't think of one for Cousins. Like the guy before said the Tim Duncan game was a really big moment where the perception of him started to change, got effortlessly exposed against a near 40 year old playing in second gear.

25/10 guy, who cares, we've seen a lot of 20/10 guys that can't play in the modern era, at least most of them don't chuck.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#72 » by Winsome Gerbil » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:37 am

Jables wrote:I remember he had an insane usage rate, like as much as Embiid or Doncic have now, and probably shooting as much as Doncic. Now there's a lot of reasons why those guys have high usage rates, I can't think of one for Cousins. Like the guy before said the Tim Duncan game was a really big moment where the perception of him started to change, got effortlessly exposed against a near 40 year old playing in second gear.

25/10 guy, who cares, we've seen a lot of 20/10 guys that can't play in the modern era, at least most of them don't chuck.


The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#73 » by TheProfessor » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:07 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
Jables wrote:I remember he had an insane usage rate, like as much as Embiid or Doncic have now, and probably shooting as much as Doncic. Now there's a lot of reasons why those guys have high usage rates, I can't think of one for Cousins. Like the guy before said the Tim Duncan game was a really big moment where the perception of him started to change, got effortlessly exposed against a near 40 year old playing in second gear.

25/10 guy, who cares, we've seen a lot of 20/10 guys that can't play in the modern era, at least most of them don't chuck.


The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

Great now let's use TS+ or rTS and normalize for era, pretty sure we paint a different picture now. Also Duncan was never known for his efficent scoring more so his other skills which Boogie lacks in spades. So yes, luckily the spurs were able survive his chucking.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#74 » by Winsome Gerbil » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:53 pm

TheProfessor wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:
Jables wrote:I remember he had an insane usage rate, like as much as Embiid or Doncic have now, and probably shooting as much as Doncic. Now there's a lot of reasons why those guys have high usage rates, I can't think of one for Cousins. Like the guy before said the Tim Duncan game was a really big moment where the perception of him started to change, got effortlessly exposed against a near 40 year old playing in second gear.

25/10 guy, who cares, we've seen a lot of 20/10 guys that can't play in the modern era, at least most of them don't chuck.


The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

Great now let's use TS+ or rTS and normalize for era, pretty sure we paint a different picture now. Also Duncan was never known for his efficent scoring more so his other skills which Boogie lacks in spades. So yes, luckily the spurs were able survive his chucking.


The only "skill" that Duncan had that Boogie did not was the all time defense, which is of course a fair thing. Both guys were elite rebounders, defensively in particular, Boogie was a better hallhandler and passer, and driven by his era, extended his range further than Duncan (I don't consider that a positive, just an inevitability -- Duncan coming up in the 2000-eens would have been forced to play the 3pt chucker too. Gotta keep those "driving lanes" open for your lessers). Duncan was actually more finessy in the post with his turnarounds and fadeaway, Boogie was to the hoop and drawing fouls. Boogie game was MORE skilled, but also more high risk, and so his turnovers were a demerit. Occasional risky passes, but also offensive fouls and the risk of a center driving the ball into traffic as opposed to a stationary post move. Overall efficiency worked out similarly:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 26.1
Age 24: 25.2
Age 25: 23.6
Age 26: 25.8
Age 27: 26.5

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 24.8
Age 24: 23.8
Age 25: 27.0
Age 26: 26.9
Age 27: 27.1

But you know what DIDN'T work out similarly? Gregg Popovich vs...Keith Smart/Mike Malone/Tyrone Corbin/George Karl/Dave Joeger and David Robinson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili etc. vs...Kosta Koufos/Ben McLemore/Rudy Gay. Tim Duncan's stable personality would obviously have been better to build around, but you put him on those Kings and have them make all the same roster moves around him, switch coaches and GMs every year, and blow every draft pick while the idiot owners were either trying to steal the team or lead the staff in Stauskas chants, and we're having a "how good was Tim Duncan?" thread after he retired with zero rings.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#75 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pm

Fwiw his 4 year on/off from 2014-17 was +5.9, a net plus every season and peaking at +9.6 in 2015

I've always thought DMC was a tremendous talent whose career development was absolutely wrecked in Sacramento with both parties sharing the blame
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#76 » by Bush4Ever » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:40 pm

To me, he was generally a "the sum is less than its parts" player.

That's not to say he wasn't talented or even bordering on elite status at his best.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#77 » by Ron Swanson » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:40 pm

Think it's pretty fair to say that his impact never truly matched the box scores he put up, but the other side calling him an awful defender and "empty stats" guy is a bridge too far. There's nothing to suggest prime Boogie was ever a truly bad defender unless you overvalue raw RPM. His peak All-Star years from basically 2013-2016 the Kings were consistently -3 to -4 points per-100 worse defensively whenever he was off the court. He was one of the better big men in the league at reading the passing lanes and had incredibly quick hands for his size. His issues were that he liked to gamble too much and took too many frustration fouls. I'd just as soon throw out the lineup data when they tried the two towers gimmick with him and AD.

It's a shame that both playing for the most incompetent franchise at the time, as well as the injuries derailing his career have caused people to remember him mostly for his emotional outbursts and the dumb "he never won anything" labels. Put him on a franchise with some actual talent from 2010-2016 and he would've been viewed in a much different light.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#78 » by andyo » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:57 pm

I truly believe he's akin to Carmelo. Talented, ball-dominant scorer, passes the eye-test in many ways, but ultimately, an inefficient scorer with a massive ego and too much baggage. A true net-negative on a team aiming to win basketball games
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#79 » by Harry Garris » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:03 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
Harry Garris wrote:
shotsquatch wrote:Injuries derailed DeMarcus' prime. He would be a top three center right now with Embiid and Jokic had things gone a little differently.


I doubt it. Cousins was one of the worst defensive centers I've ever seen play basketball. He wasn't an efficient offensive player either. Cousins was a great individual talent, he was really damn good at looking off teammates and getting his own shot, but I'm not sure what he did exactly that would help a team... you know... win games.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

Cousins was not Gobert, but during his prime years he only had one year --the final Sac year when the always wise Kings had decided to play him at PF alongside Kosta Koufos -- where he was a negative defensively. In fact under Malone he peaked as the 4th BEST DRPM in the entire league. He annually led the league in charges drawn. Was annually the top stealing center and one of the best defensive rebounders in the game. His teams were -3.1, -7.2 and -4.3 with him on the floor defensively in his last 3 full seasons in Sacramento.

His entire "bad defender" rep stems from casuals seeing his body language and freaking out. Until the recent "modern NBA" 3pt spamming that has made every big center look like an idiot, the worst that could be said about Boogie defensively is sometimes spent so much time complaining on the offensive side of the floor he wouldn't get back defensively.


Nah, I'm looking at his bball ref page right now and the only times where Cousins was a good defender was when he was playing next to AD, and when he was on the Warriors.

The dude would routinely be so freaking lazy on defense he wouldn't even cross half court and let his team play 5 on 4 on the other end. It was disgusting to watch and it happened every single game. I'm out on him as some awesome defensive player, I'm sure he had a good play here and there, but this is one of those cases where his flaws were so bad and so glaring you cannot ignore them.
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Re: Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated? 

Post#80 » by CIN-C-STAR » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:52 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
TheProfessor wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:
The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

Great now let's use TS+ or rTS and normalize for era, pretty sure we paint a different picture now. Also Duncan was never known for his efficent scoring more so his other skills which Boogie lacks in spades. So yes, luckily the spurs were able survive his chucking.


The only "skill" that Duncan had that Boogie did not was the all time defense, which is of course a fair thing. Both guys were elite rebounders, defensively in particular, Boogie was a better hallhandler and passer, and driven by his era, extended his range further than Duncan (I don't consider that a positive, just an inevitability -- Duncan coming up in the 2000-eens would have been forced to play the 3pt chucker too. Gotta keep those "driving lanes" open for your lessers). Duncan was actually more finessy in the post with his turnarounds and fadeaway, Boogie was to the hoop and drawing fouls. Boogie game was MORE skilled, but also more high risk, and so his turnovers were a demerit. Occasional risky passes, but also offensive fouls and the risk of a center driving the ball into traffic as opposed to a stationary post move. Overall efficiency worked out similarly:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 26.1
Age 24: 25.2
Age 25: 23.6
Age 26: 25.8
Age 27: 26.5

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 24.8
Age 24: 23.8
Age 25: 27.0
Age 26: 26.9
Age 27: 27.1

But you know what DIDN'T work out similarly? Gregg Popovich vs...Keith Smart/Mike Malone/Tyrone Corbin/George Karl/Dave Joeger and David Robinson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili etc. vs...Kosta Koufos/Ben McLemore/Rudy Gay. Tim Duncan's stable personality would obviously have been better to build around, but you put him on those Kings and have them make all the same roster moves around him, switch coaches and GMs every year, and blow every draft pick while the idiot owners were either trying to steal the team or lead the staff in Stauskas chants, and we're having a "how good was Tim Duncan?" thread after he retired with zero rings.


I think you are confusing doing fancy stuff in games with being more skilled and better.
Tim had great handles for a big man too and was also an excellent passer. You maybe didn't see it as often because he just wanted to win, so he mostly kept it fundamental to avoid mistakes. He understood the value of possessing the basketball and he took care of it. He wasn't hunting highlights out there.
That doesn't make Boogie more skilled or better. It just means he was more error prone, which is a negative. Protecting the ball is a skill too.
But here's some highlights of Timmy crossing over Lebron and breaking ankles in transition. And you can find many highlights of him making great outlet passes, which is a really valuable skill for an elite-rebounding big, much moreso than fancy passes in the half court imo.

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