Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever?

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Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#1 » by Hussien Fatal » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:07 pm

Does recent Efficiency Bias still put Iverson In the Top 5-10 or does his lack of efficiency put him on the outside looking in? I have him close to my top 5 for his various Scoring Feats (BLEACHER REPORT has him 6th All Time)

•2nd most Scoring Titles
•2nd highest ppg EVER in the Playoffs
•6th highest PPG ALL TIME
•2nd most 50 point playoff games
•2nd highest rate of 40 point playoff games
•ONLY Guard in NBA History to average 26+ppg for 10 straight seasons
•4 30 ppg seasons (kobe had 2)
•5 straight 40 point games (Rookie Record)
•ONLY player out of 983 to out score Bulls Jordan
•PLAYOFF RECORD 56% of teams points
•(28.1ppg) 76ers All time record

While inefficient compared to today’s standard he was pretty much league average in his day, and sported GOOD Efficiency numbers once surrounded by better offensive players even past his prime. I have a hard time putting guys like Harden above Iverson because Iverson Brought it come playoff time and raised his numbers and impact while Harden shrinks come playoff time.

My top 10 Scorers EVER in no order.
Jordan
Wilt
Durant
Lebron
Kobe
Iverson
Harden
West
Gervin
Kareem
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#2 » by SUPERVILLAIN » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:21 pm

I don't know. But I will say this.

I can't instantly name 10 guys that I'm certain is a better scorer than Iverson.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#3 » by ElectricMayhem » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:41 pm

Efficiency isn't ever entirely an individual stat. When Iverson's out on the court with Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, George Lynch, and Dikembe Mutumbo, the defense pretty much know who's going to take the shot. The fact that he could score as much as he did with no Option B on the team is amazing. Then again, he was never one to want to play with an Option B so his strength was also his downfall.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#4 » by Ayatollahmugsy » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:14 pm

I think you could make an argument for Iverson being top 10, but to me there were just too many 10-for-30 shooting nights. I think I'd put more efficient players like Shaquille O'Neal, Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone and Steph Curry ahead of him, in addition to the other guys on your list.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#5 » by Optms » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:15 pm

Top ever? No. Top 10 for the last 20 years? Absolutely. In no specific order:

Kobe
Harden
Curry
T-Mac
Lebron
KD
Iverson
Carmelo
Wade
Dirk

Just fell short:

Pierce
Lillard
Arenas
Kyrie
Ray Allen
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#6 » by SharpyShuffle » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Optms wrote:Top ever? No. Top 10 for the last 20 years? Absolutely. In no specific order:

Kobe
Harden
Curry
T-Mac
Lebron
KD
Iverson
Carmelo
Wade
Dirk

Just fell short:

Pierce
Lillard
Arenas
Kyrie
Ray Allen
This is the thing, people leave the 'skillless' big men off lists like this. Giannis may not have the natural talent of AI, but he's a much better scorer. Beat scorer doesn't mean 'best at getting buckets in ways you find skillful or fun to watch'. It just means 'best at getting buckets'. Once you add in guys like Shaq, Giannis, and Embiid, there's no way AI cracks the top ten
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#7 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:46 pm

Hussien Fatal wrote:
While inefficient compared to today’s standard he was pretty much league average in his day, and sported GOOD Efficiency numbers once surrounded by better offensive players even past his prime. I


For his career his FG Added was -1,222.2 and TS Add was -425.9. So for his career he was below league average. He did not have a single season with a league average or better FG Add and had 5 seasons of TS Add above league average with only 2008 being a good one at 103.9.

For context AI's peer and often considered less than a high efficiency guy Kobe has 7 seasons as good or better than AI's one strong year in TS Add in 2008.

Anyone with AI or Melo in their top 20 all time scorers is absolutely lost at their ability to evaluate basketball.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#8 » by Canadian6ersFan » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:55 pm

Not even up for debate; absolutely he is.
Kobe Bryant: - “We all should be fortunate that Allen Iverson was not 6’5”
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#9 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:55 pm

SharpyShuffle wrote:
Optms wrote:Top ever? No. Top 10 for the last 20 years? Absolutely. In no specific order:

Kobe
Harden
Curry
T-Mac
Lebron
KD
Iverson
Carmelo
Wade
Dirk

Just fell short:

Pierce
Lillard
Arenas
Kyrie
Ray Allen
This is the thing, people leave the 'skillless' big men off lists like this. Giannis may not have the natural talent of AI, but he's a much better scorer. Beat scorer doesn't mean 'best at getting buckets in ways you find skillful or fun to watch'. It just means 'best at getting buckets'. Once you add in guys like Shaq, Giannis, and Embiid, there's no way AI cracks the top ten


Just for fun I pulled up 2002 Duncan vs AI.

Per 100 Duncan was 33.5 points per 100 on 24.1 FGA. AI was 38.8 on 34.4 FGA. 5.3 more points per 100 on 10.3 more field goal attempts. That's absolutely bonkers bad.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#10 » by K3nny Pow3rs » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:10 pm

When Iverson was in Denver he averaged 25.6 points and .456 field shooting, in 135 games.
dhsilv2 wrote:You say that as if that's a good thing.

The league average was 45.7 and 45.8 those two years. So he was below league average. He as below league average on 2's and 3's even.

And Kobe is a career .447 shooter, and universally recognized as the 2nd best SG of all-time.
I assume you know what a volume shooter is....
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#11 » by Hellcrooner » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:15 pm

not in total numbers.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 38387
2. Karl Malone* 36928
3. LeBron James 35367
4. Kobe Bryant* 33643
5. Michael Jordan* 32292
6. Dirk Nowitzki 31560
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 31419
8. Shaquille O'Neal* 28596
9. Moses Malone* 27409
10. Carmelo Anthony

yes in ppg.
1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. Elgin Baylor* 27.36
4. Jerry West* 27.03
5. Kevin Durant 27.02
6. LeBron James 27.00
7. Allen Iverson* 26.66
8. Bob Pettit* 26.36
9. George Gervin* 26.18
10. Oscar Robertson* 25.68

not in fg%
1. DeAndre Jordan .6739
2. Rudy Gobert .6453
3. Clint Capela .6261
4. Montrezl Harrell .6156
5. Artis Gilmore* .5990
6. Tyson Chandler .5966
7. Steven Adams .5906
8. Dwight Howard .5863
9. Shaquille O'Neal* .5823
10. Hassan Whiteside

and deffinetly not in efficiency
Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.39
3. Anthony Davis 27.10
4. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
5. David Robinson* 26.18
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
7. Bob Pettit* 25.34
8. Kevin Durant 25.24
9. Chris Paul 24.87
10. James Harden 24.82


so

no
hell to the no.


he is the goat overated plyer ever tough.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#12 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:35 pm

Not sure about top 10, but easily the most relentless I've seen.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#13 » by NeoDragonKnight » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:39 pm

A part of me wants to say yes and a part says no. Looking at his efficiency is really only a narrow view IMO. Watching him play, he has so much skill and ability to be able to score. But his style, particularly in dribbling influenced generations of future players and we see the lasting effects in that style today. Isiah Thomas said it best in an open court episode, most players used a tight dribble "inside the box" (waist to just outside the shoulders), but when Iverson came in, he went outside the box, where the ball went far past the shoulder and Iverson would shimmy and cross back (he was glad he did it on Jordan and not him).
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#14 » by jpengland » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:40 pm

No.

Just no.

Inefficient and legacy built on one finals run and stepping over Ty Lue.

Argument not even top 50.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#15 » by SeanieWard » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:40 pm

Yes
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#16 » by Mujahydeen » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:46 pm

He was only able to climb to league average efficiency in a smaller role in Denver, where he averaged just 21-23 points per 36 minutes.

There are probably more guys who combine high volume and elite efficiency than spots on the top 10 scorer list. Then you have the guys who sport high volume with good or decent efficiency and only then you find Iverson.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#17 » by Pelly24 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:49 pm

SharpyShuffle wrote:
Optms wrote:Top ever? No. Top 10 for the last 20 years? Absolutely. In no specific order:

Kobe
Harden
Curry
T-Mac
Lebron
KD
Iverson
Carmelo
Wade
Dirk

Just fell short:

Pierce
Lillard
Arenas
Kyrie
Ray Allen
This is the thing, people leave the 'skillless' big men off lists like this. Giannis may not have the natural talent of AI, but he's a much better scorer. Beat scorer doesn't mean 'best at getting buckets in ways you find skillful or fun to watch'. It just means 'best at getting buckets'. Once you add in guys like Shaq, Giannis, and Embiid, there's no way AI cracks the top ten


With the bolded, I think there's a mix. If you're assisted on most of your buckets, I wouldn't say you're one of the best scorers in the same way, or I'd detract some of that efficiency value and put you closer to the guy who scores a bit less efficiently but generates more of their own buckets. If it's the end of the game and you are stuck and unable to generate easy looks and take over when needed, that's a big problem.

that said the efficiency gap between Giannis and AI is too great. But I would take Luka as a scorer over Giannis any day.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#18 » by iqureshi » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:50 pm

Think he opened the door for the modern nba, much like Steph did. Top 10 most influential basketball players ever. But scoring and efficiency, no there were betters. Maybe if he had better scoring teammates to take away the focus off him. If you switched him with Kobe on the lakers, he would probably have been a top 10 scorer.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#19 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:53 pm

K3nny Pow3rs wrote:When Iverson was in Denver he averaged 25.6 points and .456 field shooting, in 135 games.


You say that as if that's a good thing.

The league average was 45.7 and 45.8 those two years. So he was below league average. He as below league average on 2's and 3's even.
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Re: Is Iverson a top 10 Scorer Ever? 

Post#20 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:55 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
SharpyShuffle wrote:
Optms wrote:Top ever? No. Top 10 for the last 20 years? Absolutely. In no specific order:

Kobe
Harden
Curry
T-Mac
Lebron
KD
Iverson
Carmelo
Wade
Dirk

Just fell short:

Pierce
Lillard
Arenas
Kyrie
Ray Allen
This is the thing, people leave the 'skillless' big men off lists like this. Giannis may not have the natural talent of AI, but he's a much better scorer. Beat scorer doesn't mean 'best at getting buckets in ways you find skillful or fun to watch'. It just means 'best at getting buckets'. Once you add in guys like Shaq, Giannis, and Embiid, there's no way AI cracks the top ten


With the bolded, I think there's a mix. If you're assisted on most of your buckets, I wouldn't say you're one of the best scorers in the same way, or I'd detract some of that efficiency value and put you closer to the guy who scores a bit less efficiently but generates more of their own buckets. If it's the end of the game and you are stuck and unable to generate easy looks and take over when needed, that's a big problem.

that said the efficiency gap between Giannis and AI is too great. But I would take Luka as a scorer over Giannis any day.


Is Giannis assisted on most of his baskets? Or Embiid or Shaq? And I'd say if you ARE assisted but the assist was possible because you created an opening for a lob...that's as much a part of scoring as doing it off the dribble no? (Not talking about a defender just leaves you open but actual back cuts and off ball movement/reading the defense).

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