Re: WNBA Playoffs
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:33 pm
WNBA isn’t bad at all. Not my cup of tea but I’ve been to a few games and it’s fun
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bisme37 wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:I watched! I feel like there's a lot of positive momentum with the WNBA now. I think the Bubble phenomenon and all that went with it actually ended up giving the WNBA a boost despite the fact that I wasn't following the specifics last year.
Also glad people haven't gone negative yet. Hate that it's so common. Completely fine to prefer the men's game for obvious reasons, but if you really love the thinking that goes into basketball skill and strategy development, there's plenty to appreciate. Even when I feel like the WNBA is needlessly behind the curve with regards to NBA strategy, I find that interesting because it allows me to apply what I've learned in one sphere to diagnose what's going on in the other.
Yeah I've noticed that too, it's almost like the WNBA is 10 or so years behind on style of play. Most WNBA teams play more in the paint and shoot way fewer 3s than NBA teams. But I can't decide if it's a matter of their league is still evolving or if it's just a matter of there are a ton of really good bigs in the WNBA right now and it makes sense to play through them. Jonquel Jones, Candace Parker, Aja Wilson, Liz Cambage, Delle Donne, Brianna Stewart etc etc are all MVP level players and they are all bigs (4s or 5s).
In any case I think a lot of the NBA fans who pine for the olden days of the league would actually like WNBA if they gave it a chance.
jamaalstar21 wrote:Fowles defense is incredible.
Doctor MJ wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:Fowles defense is incredible.
So I think this is something that bears further scrutiny from NBA eyes. Fowles is probably considered the greatest defensive big in WNBA history at this point - 4 DPOYs will do that - but her apparent +/- impact always seems to lag behind her stature. It's possible that the issue isn't that her defense is overrated, but that would specifically seem to mean her offense is even more overrated.
Sorry for coming across as a "hater" here, I'm really not looking to tear down your observation because it's what everyone sees when they watch Fowles - myself included - but there sure seems to be a disconnect between how good she looks and how impactful she is.
dockingsched wrote:I like how you can hear the coach and players in the huddle, good insight.
Watching Lloyd continuously throw up bad shots in OT was irritating.
Doctor MJ wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:Fowles defense is incredible.
So I think this is something that bears further scrutiny from NBA eyes. Fowles is probably considered the greatest defensive big in WNBA history at this point - 4 DPOYs will do that - but her apparent +/- impact always seems to lag behind her stature. It's possible that the issue isn't that her defense is overrated, but that would specifically seem to mean her offense is even more overrated.
Sorry for coming across as a "hater" here, I'm really not looking to tear down your observation because it's what everyone sees when they watch Fowles - myself included - but there sure seems to be a disconnect between how good she looks and how impactful she is.
jamaalstar21 wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:Fowles defense is incredible.
So I think this is something that bears further scrutiny from NBA eyes. Fowles is probably considered the greatest defensive big in WNBA history at this point - 4 DPOYs will do that - but her apparent +/- impact always seems to lag behind her stature. It's possible that the issue isn't that her defense is overrated, but that would specifically seem to mean her offense is even more overrated.
Sorry for coming across as a "hater" here, I'm really not looking to tear down your observation because it's what everyone sees when they watch Fowles - myself included - but there sure seems to be a disconnect between how good she looks and how impactful she is.
Definitely have never really liked her offense. She's disciplined on offense, hit the corners on the short rolls etc, and her length and strength creates some buckets. In this broadcast they're begging for Fowles to get the ball, and I don't really get it. She's more of a scrapper than good post player.
But defensively I don't see what's not to like. Super quick feet, very disciplined and fundamental (but sometimes overplays shooters and leaves the paint wide open on a team that relies on her in here), great rim protector that get her hands up. I admit to having never dug deep on any WNBA analytics.
jamaalstar21 wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:Fowles defense is incredible.
So I think this is something that bears further scrutiny from NBA eyes. Fowles is probably considered the greatest defensive big in WNBA history at this point - 4 DPOYs will do that - but her apparent +/- impact always seems to lag behind her stature. It's possible that the issue isn't that her defense is overrated, but that would specifically seem to mean her offense is even more overrated.
Sorry for coming across as a "hater" here, I'm really not looking to tear down your observation because it's what everyone sees when they watch Fowles - myself included - but there sure seems to be a disconnect between how good she looks and how impactful she is.
Out of curiosity, where do you track WNBA numbers mostly. I find the WNBA website unfairly brutal to navigate. They have some stats on bbref, but the +/- apparently only goes back to 2018. I had no idea there was an analytics based anti-Fowles argument and am now intrigued. Any good WNBA journalists you keep an eye on?
Doctor MJ wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
So I think this is something that bears further scrutiny from NBA eyes. Fowles is probably considered the greatest defensive big in WNBA history at this point - 4 DPOYs will do that - but her apparent +/- impact always seems to lag behind her stature. It's possible that the issue isn't that her defense is overrated, but that would specifically seem to mean her offense is even more overrated.
Sorry for coming across as a "hater" here, I'm really not looking to tear down your observation because it's what everyone sees when they watch Fowles - myself included - but there sure seems to be a disconnect between how good she looks and how impactful she is.
Out of curiosity, where do you track WNBA numbers mostly. I find the WNBA website unfairly brutal to navigate. They have some stats on bbref, but the +/- apparently only goes back to 2018. I had no idea there was an analytics based anti-Fowles argument and am now intrigued. Any good WNBA journalists you keep an eye on?
Actually, the WNBA site is the one I like best, but it took some getting used to.
Other stuff:
bkref has stuff for the past 3 years.
The (old?) statistician from the Lynx still has stuff going back to 2013.
The WNBA site also has stuff archived that tends to break things down more from on/off perspective, but you have to guess the URLs and if I recall it only goes back to 2005.
2006 WNBA Net Plus/Minus Leaders
I'd say Positive Residual is the site that's done the most with more advanced impact estimations.
Since you're interested, I'll spreadsheet that I've made with various stuff in it. I'm still adding and updating to it though.
Doc's WNBA Compendium
You can see on that that the highlighted sheet was me coming up with 25 player WNBA GOAT list. Those following the WNBA know that the league has just released their own 25 greatest player list, and mine was put together just before that was released. If memory serves, I predicted 23 out of the 25 players, though my list itself only agreed on 21 of them.
In terms of good WNBA journalists, it's a great question. I've gone through the various WNBA podcasts and that was useful. The women on those podcasts tend to have relatively deep historical knowledge on a player scouting level, the men tend to be more analytical. The best analyst I've seen is Kevin Pelton, who you may also recognize from his regular NBA work.
But while I admire Pelton's ability to systematically go through and do analysis, I'm not super-impressed by him relative to the best minds in NBA circles, which includes the best minds on RealGM.
I've been talking to ElGee about this and perhaps prodding him to consider either doing some analysis on this front, or finding someone (ideally a woman) who he could promote, and he's interested in doing it but he's busy.
Short of that I was thinking I might start a blog again to just communicate what I've been finding because much of what I find I don't see people fully getting their heads around. But I have to admit that I haven't been watching the WNBA all these years, and you add that on top of me being a guy, and I'm a bit reluctant to put much into trying to convince others they should listen to me.
Correct. You get different styles in the WNBA and post play and mid range shooting.bisme37 wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:I watched! I feel like there's a lot of positive momentum with the WNBA now. I think the Bubble phenomenon and all that went with it actually ended up giving the WNBA a boost despite the fact that I wasn't following the specifics last year.
Also glad people haven't gone negative yet. Hate that it's so common. Completely fine to prefer the men's game for obvious reasons, but if you really love the thinking that goes into basketball skill and strategy development, there's plenty to appreciate. Even when I feel like the WNBA is needlessly behind the curve with regards to NBA strategy, I find that interesting because it allows me to apply what I've learned in one sphere to diagnose what's going on in the other.
Yeah I've noticed that too, it's almost like the WNBA is 10 or so years behind on style of play. Most WNBA teams play more in the paint and shoot way fewer 3s than NBA teams. But I can't decide if it's a matter of their league is still evolving or if it's just a matter of there are a ton of really good bigs in the WNBA right now and it makes sense to play through them. Jonquel Jones, Candace Parker, Aja Wilson, Liz Cambage, Delle Donne, Brianna Stewart etc etc are all MVP level players and they are all bigs (4s or 5s).
In any case I think a lot of the NBA fans who pine for the olden days of the league would actually like WNBA if they gave it a chance.
Stan wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:How come Liz doesn’t start for aces?