NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I am impressed I am impressed even if I think you're saying I am disingenuous.

No doubt I just gave a bunch of generalities and didn't really look at this specifically.

Since I have said a lot Now I will be brief here and say you're entitled to your opinion.... sincerely thank you for considering what I said even if you don't agree with it.

No problem man and I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid. I'm saying that if you look at the vaccines, specifically the mRNA ones, you'll see that any long-term effects would have to be noticeable soon, because the mRNA that's injected dissolves quickly, and the message it relays (create spike proteins so your body destroys them) tends to fade over time. The only long-term effects have to be borne of the myocarditis, and doctors have been very careful about people with heart disease and recommending the vaccine to them.

It sounds like you have very valid reasons to be wary of the government mandating anything medical, but the government doesnt include the vast majority of doctors, specifically virologists and epidemiologists, who are all agreeing with that and are proving it in studies - some completed and up for viewing, some in progress for longer term, but so far its all been safe.

I'm also saying that a lot of people come here, leading with "I'm vaccinated, but..." and then throw out a lot of misinformation. So its hard to tell who's being earnest about what they are saying and who's not. But the facts are this: you either have the great, great supermajority of virologists/epidemiologists lying to you in unison in the exact same way, or you have the sliver of other dissenters who all have their own ideas about whats safe, what's a cure, what's bad about the vaccine.

And don't just believe me. If you know an anti-vaxxer person, ask them specifically why. And if you find another, ask them too. Its very rare that they are going to say the same thing. I get this is a basketball forum, and we all have some very uneducated opinions about something some of the time, but when that transfer over to medical, in a way that is detrimental to public health, its just not the time to be contrarian for contrarian's sake. There are studies to look over (and there's a new site in development that is supposed to be Cliffs notes for studies soon) and I'm sure there will be people familiar enough with how to translate them from the super science-y bluster into something easier to digest

Thank you. I learned quite a bit and I’m going to study up on the things that you have just presented that I have no clue about.

[michaelm]

Zero proof of this of course.

4.55m people dead

one fringe NBA player has a minor reaction to the shot

"he's a victim, and now I'm gonna be cautious"

Look math is hard, but its not that hard

It’s important to look at the NBA picture though. There has not been a clear case of the vax saving any player from a negative outcome of COVID but a very good chance it’s curtailing the career of a player.

There are 2 different aspects to this.

Are the vaccines safe and effective ?. They do have very rare side effects which can be serious with the viral vector vaccines, as with some other existing vaccines for other infectious agents, but these occur with orders of magnitude more frequency with infection with the actual virus. I have not seen anyone here or elsewhere even propose a plausible mechanism for long term harm from the mRNA vaccines, and most "evidence"" here and elsewhere seems to come from conspiracy sites.

Whether there should be mandates, including for NBA players, is a whole other question. I believe there should be for health workers, but extending beyond them is much more doubtful even for me, particularly in a non exponential spread phase of the pandemic, although whether that is permanent is not knowable at this time. I suspect the current administration is bemused rather than attempting paternalism or erosion of freedom, otherwise they would have mandated vaccination from the get go. I consider it likely they expected something developed with a significant contribution by the previous administration as a solution with which they obviously agreed and implemented would be embraced without controversy. Where I am we have 78% full vaccination and are likely heading for over 92%, with most of those vaccinated not the subjects of mandates. The criticism of the government has very substantially been for the tardy rollout of vaccination and not securing adequate vaccine availability initially.

[frothbrain]

4.55m people dead

one fringe NBA player has a minor reaction to the shot

"he's a victim, and now I'm gonna be cautious"

Look math is hard, but its not that hard

It’s important to look at the NBA picture though. There has not been a clear case of the vax saving any player from a negative outcome of COVID but a very good chance it’s curtailing the career of a player.

There are 2 different aspects to this.

Are the vaccines safe and effective ?. They do have very rare side effects which can be serious with the viral vector vaccines, as with some existing vaccines, but these occur with orders of magnitude more frequency with infection with the actual virus. I have not seen anyone here or elsewhere even propose a plausible mechanism for long term harm from the mRNA vaccines, and most "evidence"" here and elsewhere seems to come from conspiracy sites.

Whether there should be mandates, including for NBA players, is a whole other question. I believe there should be for health workers, but extending beyond them is much more doubtful even for me, particularly in a non exponential spread phase of the pandemic, although whether that is permanent is not knowable at this time. I suspect the current administration is bemused rather than attempting paternalism or erosion of freedom, otherwise they would have mandated vaccination from the get go. I consider it likely they expected something developed with a significant contribution by the previous administration as a solution with which they obviously agreed and implemented would be embraced without controversy. Where I am we have 78% full vaccination and are likely heading for over 92%, with most of those vaccinated not the subjects of mandates. The criticism of the government has very substantially been for the tardy rollout of vaccination and not securing adequate vaccine availability initially.

Apparently not rare enough for Sweden and Denmark to ban the distribution of the MRNA moderna vaccine for people under 30.

[michaelm]

It’s important to look at the NBA picture though. There has not been a clear case of the vax saving any player from a negative outcome of COVID but a very good chance it’s curtailing the career of a player.

There are 2 different aspects to this.

Are the vaccines safe and effective ?. They do have very rare side effects which can be serious with the viral vector vaccines, as with some existing vaccines, but these occur with orders of magnitude more frequency with infection with the actual virus. I have not seen anyone here or elsewhere even propose a plausible mechanism for long term harm from the mRNA vaccines, and most "evidence"" here and elsewhere seems to come from conspiracy sites.

Whether there should be mandates, including for NBA players, is a whole other question. I believe there should be for health workers, but extending beyond them is much more doubtful even for me, particularly in a non exponential spread phase of the pandemic, although whether that is permanent is not knowable at this time. I suspect the current administration is bemused rather than attempting paternalism or erosion of freedom, otherwise they would have mandated vaccination from the get go. I consider it likely they expected something developed with a significant contribution by the previous administration as a solution with which they obviously agreed and implemented would be embraced without controversy. Where I am we have 78% full vaccination and are likely heading for over 92%, with most of those vaccinated not the subjects of mandates. The criticism of the government has very substantially been for the tardy rollout of vaccination and not securing adequate vaccine availability initially.

Apparently not rare enough for Sweden and Denmark to ban the distribution of the MRNA moderna vaccine for people under 30.

I wouldn’t give them to children myself. Risk benefit ratio.

[Da ThRONe]

It does not have the potential to do more harm than good.

We aren't allowing the authorities to tell us what to do unchecked - its been checked, a lot. More so than most things actually. Probably you guys have done more "research" - and I airquote it because research has not been a strong suit of the anti-vax crowd - on this than any other medication ever. And certainly its been scrutinized in public more than anything in recent memory. And its come out clean if you look at the actual studies.

Feigning ignorance then using said ignorance as a reason doesn't fly

Ok so what's up the impact of the vaccine on women's menstrual cycles? The fact that this question has yet to be answered means that the vaccine has the potential to be more harmful than helpful.

Ah, the newest argument. Great. As noted above - what damage is it causing? Because its not infertility, its not damage to the uterine lining, its not anything chronic - its simply been a stress reaction to the vaccine.

And that's not to downplay women's suffering at all. Obviously if there is a direct connection to a heavier or absent cycle, that needs to be addressed. And recently 5 vaunted research labs were given grants to figure this out. So far the prevailing concept is that the endometrium is taking on advanced weight, which is then purged, causing heavier flows. Any irregularity for any women is typically a cause for concern, however there are minimal reports of it happening for more than one cycle.

There is nothing atypical about an irregular cycle when the immune system is activated. Its in fact a sign of the body doing what its supposed to be doing.

So exactly what damage is it doing, why are you scared of it, and why did it take you this long to mention it? Haven't really seen you fighting for women's rights earlier in the thread. Are the arguments above them now defunct and you've moved on to the next talking point? Can't wait to hear what the next one is

Your answer is I don't know therefore it isn't doing any damage is the most unscientific approach. We have no idea if this is ultimately having an effect on
adult women's fertility it hasn't been a full year since these vaccine have been available. Plus the US is pushing to vaccinate young girls who's yet to start their menstrual cycles. How will these jabs effect undeveloped reproduction systems? How do people who run with this "the science" mantra not see the flaws in this idealism?

On top of several countries are reviewing whether to reduce the doses from 2 to 1 in younger citizens. Iceland banned Mordena "vaccine" and 3 Nordic countries have put an age cap on the jab. So to act as if there's no potential for more damage than good takes some level of looking the other way from scientific data.

[Mavrelous]

This tweet includes the analysis of August mortality in Israel, August is the month were ~3M booster shots were administered

Read on Twitter

This happens to be the worst August in terms of mortality in country's history, ~30% jump in mortality compared to last 5 year average.
This is all cause mortality data in Israel for the last 21 years, most of the excess is in the 70 y/o+ group

Read on Twitter

Notice January and February, from mid December to early march, the country was going through massive vaccination campaign, notice that the 3 deadliest months, in the deadliest year by far on record for Israel, are the mass vaccination months, with excess mortality north of 30%.
Israel was under very strict lockdown and mask mandate in January/February, and under vaccine pass regiment in August.

2021, a year where ~90% of the >16yo population has been vaccinated, is the worst year in mortality BY FAR, every month has more death than the matching month in any previous year, except for May, it's the 2nd worst, and that is when 2020 was the pandemic year.

Anyone looking at this data, and doesn't suspect Rachel Walensky is lying by saying "pandemic of the unvaccinated", should reconsider their though process.
Anyone that looks at this data, and agrees that the vaccine is safe and effective, has lots of explaining to do.

This is bad, this is VERY bad, and what's worse, this isn't covered anywhere, and the people, like mob are witch hunting those who are actually seeing through the Emperor's new clothes.

[God Squad]

This thread in a nutshell.

[ecogen]

This tweet includes the analysis of August mortality in Israel, August is the month were ~3M booster shots were administered

Read on Twitter

This happens to be the worst August in terms of mortality in country's history, ~30% jump in mortality compared to last 5 year average.
This is all cause mortality data in Israel for the last 21 years, most of the excess is in the 70 y/o+ group

Read on Twitter

Notice January and February, from mid December to early march, the country was going through massive vaccination campaign, notice that the 3 deadliest months, in the deadliest year by far on record for Israel, are the mass vaccination months, with excess mortality north of 30%.
Israel was under very strict lockdown and mask mandate in January/February, and under vaccine pass regiment in August.

2021, a year where ~90% of the >16yo population has been vaccinated, is the worst year in mortality BY FAR, every month has more death than the matching month in any previous year, except for May, it's the 2nd worst, and that is when 2020 was the pandemic year.

Anyone looking at this data, and doesn't suspect Rachel Walensky is lying by saying "pandemic of the unvaccinated", should reconsider their though process.
Anyone that looks at this data, and agrees that the vaccine is safe and effective, has lots of explaining to do.

This is bad, this is VERY bad, and what's worse, this isn't covered anywhere, and the people, like mob are witch hunting those who are actually seeing through the Emperor's new clothes.

So going by these numbers, which might or might not be accurate, 10% of the population is responsible for around 36% of covid deaths, probably for a higher percentage of hospitalizations and your conclusion is that this isn't the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Stats should be a mandatory course for every single major in existence.

[nikster]

It’s important to look at the NBA picture though. There has not been a clear case of the vax saving any player from a negative outcome of COVID but a very good chance it’s curtailing the career of a player.

There are 2 different aspects to this.

Are the vaccines safe and effective ?. They do have very rare side effects which can be serious with the viral vector vaccines, as with some existing vaccines, but these occur with orders of magnitude more frequency with infection with the actual virus. I have not seen anyone here or elsewhere even propose a plausible mechanism for long term harm from the mRNA vaccines, and most "evidence"" here and elsewhere seems to come from conspiracy sites.

Whether there should be mandates, including for NBA players, is a whole other question. I believe there should be for health workers, but extending beyond them is much more doubtful even for me, particularly in a non exponential spread phase of the pandemic, although whether that is permanent is not knowable at this time. I suspect the current administration is bemused rather than attempting paternalism or erosion of freedom, otherwise they would have mandated vaccination from the get go. I consider it likely they expected something developed with a significant contribution by the previous administration as a solution with which they obviously agreed and implemented would be embraced without controversy. Where I am we have 78% full vaccination and are likely heading for over 92%, with most of those vaccinated not the subjects of mandates. The criticism of the government has very substantially been for the tardy rollout of vaccination and not securing adequate vaccine availability initially.

Apparently not rare enough for Sweden and Denmark to ban the distribution of the MRNA moderna vaccine for people under 30.

The only reason they banned it under 30 is because we have a similarly effective alternative in Pfizer that seems to have a lower risk. If pfizer wasn't an option they would definitely still be using moderna. Canada made a similar recommendation regards to Moderna in the youngest populations but didnt out right ban it

[Mavrelous]

So going by these numbers, which might or might not be accurate, 10% of the population is responsible for around 36% of covid deaths, probably for a higher percentage of hospitalizations and your conclusion is that this isn't the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Stats should be a mandatory course for every single major in existence.

This is what you took from this data?
Not the fact that ACM is far higher in the vaccinated year of the pandemic than the non-vaccinated year?
Not the fact that 2 out of 3 deaths are vaccinated, but it is a pandemic of the 1/3?
Yeah, Stats should be a mandatory, also logic, basic analysis, but some people are hopeless...

[mulamutti]

Know what you did was assume he thinks no one is going to tell him what to do.

Under martial law or war time rules people can be killed. People can be forced to be vaccinated against certain diseases in theory.

Kyrie Irving is a millionaire who already has a championship ring. He cannot play basketball in his home cord because of that particular state or city’s rules. No one is saying he hast to take a Covid shot but you.

i don't get what you're saying. I didn't say Kyrie has to take a shot. The local laws asks Kyrie to do so if he wants to play. What I am saying is that Kyrie is a moron, and I dont see much logical reasoning behind not taking the vaccine. I would also prefer if we had a federal vaccine mandate (outside of a doctor's official recommendation not to), cuz its the obvious right thing to do.

Thank you for responding.

When I was in the military I had to take all kind of shots and there was no choice involved.

Years later I got diagnosed with a mental health disorder. There are medications which are prescribed and some have very bad side effects and have even made me worse off. I'm glad the police cannot arrest me when a med level might not be what it should be according to a doctor who may or may not be right.

I think it is stupid to assume the vaccine will not have long-term effects and that it is right for everyone and I could not disagree more about a federal mandate for the shot.

Suppose someone generates a virus in a lab and they believe they have the Cure. What you're saying is they get rich because the government will make everyone get that shot.

A logical reason is that not everyone is getting a shot just like Bradley Beal. Many PhD candidates are not getting the shot. I know someone right now who is sick because of the covid shot side effects.. What if he dies? The girl I went to high school might lose her husband.

Thank you for sharing your opinion

I understand where you're coming from, but ithink a bit differently. You can see this bottom up or top down. I.e think that you can be 1 in a 1000 that can get a negative side effect. Or top-down would be to vaccinate everyone so that you can save 999 out of a 1000. The top down approach only works if most people take the vaccine. Also you have a much higher likelihood of having negative effects from the virus vs the vaccine. As much as I hate the profit motive of big pharma and corporations, you have to follow the science and statistical evidence which heavily favors the vaccine.

[ecogen]

So going by these numbers, which might or might not be accurate, 10% of the population is responsible for around 36% of covid deaths, probably for a higher percentage of hospitalizations and your conclusion is that this isn't the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Stats should be a mandatory course for every single major in existence.

This is what you took from this data?
Not the fact that ACM is far higher in the vaccinated year of the pandemic than the non-vaccinated year?
Not the fact that 2 out of 3 deaths are vaccinated, but it is a pandemic of the 1/3?
Yeah, Stats should be a mandatory, also logic, basic analysis, but some people are hopeless...

90% and 10% of the population account for 64% and 36% of deaths respectively, can you tell us what conclusions we can draw from that?

[Mavrelous]

So going by these numbers, which might or might not be accurate, 10% of the population is responsible for around 36% of covid deaths, probably for a higher percentage of hospitalizations and your conclusion is that this isn't the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Stats should be a mandatory course for every single major in existence.

This is what you took from this data?
Not the fact that ACM is far higher in the vaccinated year of the pandemic than the non-vaccinated year?
Not the fact that 2 out of 3 deaths are vaccinated, but it is a pandemic of the 1/3?
Yeah, Stats should be a mandatory, also logic, basic analysis, but some people are hopeless...

90% and 10% of the population account for 64% and 36% of deaths respectively, can you tell us what conclusions we can draw from that?

WRT the vaccine, the vaccines don't stop the pandemic and that it's gotten much worse, and that the vaccine is protective, it is nowhere near as advertised, especially, when the testing policy is vastly different between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.
The main takeaway from the post is that virtually fully vaccinated state, like Israel, who implements a COVID green pass, is in much worse shape after the vaccine than before it, compared to Sweden for example, who has been practically COVID free since the winter.

[ecogen]

This is what you took from this data?
Not the fact that ACM is far higher in the vaccinated year of the pandemic than the non-vaccinated year?
Not the fact that 2 out of 3 deaths are vaccinated, but it is a pandemic of the 1/3?
Yeah, Stats should be a mandatory, also logic, basic analysis, but some people are hopeless...

90% and 10% of the population account for 64% and 36% of deaths respectively, can you tell us what conclusions we can draw from that?

WRT the vaccine, the vaccines don't stop the pandemic and that it's gotten much worse, and that the vaccine is protective, it is nowhere near as advertised, especially, when the testing policy is vastly different between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.
The main takeaway from the post is that virtually fully vaccinated state, like Israel, who implements a COVID green pass, is in much worse shape after the vaccine than before it, compared to Sweden for example, who has been practically COVID free since the winter.

How about you focus on the numbers that you, yourself provided and I highlighted and tell us your conclusion instead of going on a rant in order to avoid answering the question.

Let's try this again:

90% and 10% of the population account for 64% and 36% of deaths respectively, can you tell us what conclusions we can draw from that?

[michaelm]

There are 2 different aspects to this.

Are the vaccines safe and effective ?. They do have very rare side effects which can be serious with the viral vector vaccines, as with some existing vaccines, but these occur with orders of magnitude more frequency with infection with the actual virus. I have not seen anyone here or elsewhere even propose a plausible mechanism for long term harm from the mRNA vaccines, and most "evidence"" here and elsewhere seems to come from conspiracy sites.

Whether there should be mandates, including for NBA players, is a whole other question. I believe there should be for health workers, but extending beyond them is much more doubtful even for me, particularly in a non exponential spread phase of the pandemic, although whether that is permanent is not knowable at this time. I suspect the current administration is bemused rather than attempting paternalism or erosion of freedom, otherwise they would have mandated vaccination from the get go. I consider it likely they expected something developed with a significant contribution by the previous administration as a solution with which they obviously agreed and implemented would be embraced without controversy. Where I am we have 78% full vaccination and are likely heading for over 92%, with most of those vaccinated not the subjects of mandates. The criticism of the government has very substantially been for the tardy rollout of vaccination and not securing adequate vaccine availability initially.

Apparently not rare enough for Sweden and Denmark to ban the distribution of the MRNA moderna vaccine for people under 30.

The only reason they banned it under 30 is because we have a similarly effective alternative in Pfizer that seems to have a lower risk. If pfizer wasn't an option they would definitely still be using moderna. Canada made a similar recommendation regards to Moderna in the youngest populations but didnt out right ban it

Exactly. I have begun to see no point in continuing to argue with the intransigent. There was an existing mRNA vaccine which seems to work with a possibly even lower rate of a rare complication, which they oddly didn't ban.

People smarter and more knowledgeable than I am do have some doubts about mRNA vaccination in those aged under 20 who have a very low rate of serious problems with the actual infection.

Moderna is effectively a higher dose vaccine from what I can discern and produces a greater immune response. For me at my age that is good and I might have it for my booster dose, although the Novavax vaccine, which is neither a viral vector vaccine nor an mRNA vaccine, has always been the most appealing to me on general principles. I believe that vaccine has brilliant results in clinical trials and is nearing approval, so obviously there should be no further problems/objections once it becomes available.

[michaelm]

So going by these numbers, which might or might not be accurate, 10% of the population is responsible for around 36% of covid deaths, probably for a higher percentage of hospitalizations and your conclusion is that this isn't the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Stats should be a mandatory course for every single major in existence.

This is what you took from this data?
Not the fact that ACM is far higher in the vaccinated year of the pandemic than the non-vaccinated year?
Not the fact that 2 out of 3 deaths are vaccinated, but it is a pandemic of the 1/3?
Yeah, Stats should be a mandatory, also logic, basic analysis, but some people are hopeless...

So delta is a worse variant and they shouldn't have been so confident about opening up completely with a significant unvaccinated minority group of orthodox Jews in their community, particularly when data didn't exist in regard to how long the protective effect of the vaccine would last and whether 2 doses at the given intervals were ideal or sufficient, as well as failing to anticipate that the virus would mutate to a more infectious +/- more lethal variant, which it did in a place with a low vaccination rate rather than actually in Israel.

[ItsDanger]

The non covid deaths (specifically 2020, 2021) in chart above should be alarming, 3,800 in 2021 and counting?. Calling out someone about stats while missing the obvious red flag is a total joke. I presented a similar chart for Ontario, Canada and what do you get . . . crickets. Get the other experts in the conversation, they've never been included.

[Mavrelous]

The non covid deaths (specifically 2020, 2021) in chart above should be alarming, 3,800 in 2021 and counting?. Calling out someone about stats while missing the obvious red flag is a total joke. I presented a similar chart for Ontario, Canada and what do you get . . . crickets. Get the other experts in the conversation, they've never been included.

That's the main point. ACM is through the roof, and vaccinated aren't tested, the pandemic is worse with the vaccine, in one of the most vaccinated countries, a country that vaccinates from age 12.

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[ag3]

The non covid deaths (specifically 2020, 2021) in chart above should be alarming, 3,800 in 2021 and counting?. Calling out someone about stats while missing the obvious red flag is a total joke. I presented a similar chart for Ontario, Canada and what do you get . . . crickets. Get the other experts in the conversation, they've never been included.

That's the main point. ACM is through the roof, and vaccinated aren't tested, the pandemic is worse with the vaccine, in one of the most vaccinated countries, a country that vaccinates from age 12.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

Nonsense. Every single thing is open the last few months. Large concerts, sports, bars, clubs, etc. If things were this open without the vaccine, we would be seeing 10,000+ deaths a day in the USA.

The USA's Delta wave never got close to the winter wave (UK strain), when NOTHING was open. UK strain topped out at 4,000 deaths a day. Delta 2,000 and that's with every single thing open.

[Mavrelous]

The non covid deaths (specifically 2020, 2021) in chart above should be alarming, 3,800 in 2021 and counting?. Calling out someone about stats while missing the obvious red flag is a total joke. I presented a similar chart for Ontario, Canada and what do you get . . . crickets. Get the other experts in the conversation, they've never been included.

That's the main point. ACM is through the roof, and vaccinated aren't tested, the pandemic is worse with the vaccine, in one of the most vaccinated countries, a country that vaccinates from age 12.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

Nonsense. Every single thing is open the last few months. Large concerts, sports, bars, clubs, etc. If things were this open without the vaccine, we would be seeing 10,000+ deaths a day in the USA.

The USA's Delta wave never got close to the winter wave (UK strain), when NOTHING was open. UK strain topped out at 4,000 deaths a day. Delta 2,000 and that's with every single thing open.

Eveything was totally open in Israel May-September last year also.
Now they hace green pass, only vaccinated and negative tests are allowed to crowded places.

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