RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll

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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#81 » by Jzh » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:41 pm

Roy The Natural wrote:
Jzh wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:Dwight Howard is the only player that has legit case of being snubbed. How can you put Lillard, Davis and even Ray Allen & Pierce and not Dwight Howard who accomplished way more then these guys.


The only one ? I'm a homer on that one but Parker is a final MVP, top 10 all time points/top 5 all time assists in playoffs and second option to one of the best team in history.

People arguing him and Manu got carried by Duncan, what about all the second options in winning teams in that case (Pippen, Klay or to an extreme Bryant with Shaq). Picking Lillard over him as of today is a disgrace, sure he may be intrisically better but he's never achieved anything in the league so far.


I disagree with this type of take vehemently. If it's fairly clear that one player is "intrinsically" better... they need to be ranked higher. It's only when it's difficult to parse that "team accomplishments" should get thrown into the ring. I don't think we should be parsing the bottom of the top 100 or so players all time by rings and championships. If a players had a better peak, he was a better player.


Where are Gilbert Arenas or T-Mac in that case ? Top 75 reflects players' contributions over the span of their career otherwise these players would be part of the list. Being a MVP final is a better accomplishment than throwing game winners to close the 1st round. Same applies to a lot of players like English, Carter, Howard, Gasol who also got snubbed.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#82 » by Roy The Natural » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:26 pm

Jzh wrote:
Roy The Natural wrote:
Jzh wrote:
The only one ? I'm a homer on that one but Parker is a final MVP, top 10 all time points/top 5 all time assists in playoffs and second option to one of the best team in history.

People arguing him and Manu got carried by Duncan, what about all the second options in winning teams in that case (Pippen, Klay or to an extreme Bryant with Shaq). Picking Lillard over him as of today is a disgrace, sure he may be intrisically better but he's never achieved anything in the league so far.


I disagree with this type of take vehemently. If it's fairly clear that one player is "intrinsically" better... they need to be ranked higher. It's only when it's difficult to parse that "team accomplishments" should get thrown into the ring. I don't think we should be parsing the bottom of the top 100 or so players all time by rings and championships. If a players had a better peak, he was a better player.


Where are Gilbert Arenas or T-Mac in that case ? Top 75 reflects players' contributions over the span of their career otherwise these players would be part of the list. Being a MVP final is a better accomplishment than throwing game winners to close the 1st round. Same applies to a lot of players like English, Carter, Howard, Gasol who also got snubbed.


You can change "peak" to "prime"... that's what I meant at least. I don't hold "Finals MVP" in all that high regard. All it really means is "Series MVP"....

I mean.. it's a cute award and all... but are we just supposed to forget that Parker played like dog-crap in game's 2, 3, and 5 against Phoenix and the Spurs won the series anyways that year? That he was mediocre for most of the Denver series that year, yet the Spurs still rolled? Or that he was dog-crap in game 4 against the Jazz... yet the Spurs still won the game?

Tony Parker had the luxury of being able to play terrible, and still walk away with victories. How many time's has Lillard been afforded that opportunity? Game 7 against Denver? ... Lillard's series last year where he went 34.3/4.3/10.2 with only 2.2 TOV and a TS% of .603 would EASILY be the best series that Tony Parker ever had in his life.

There's context to this. To ignore it, only suggest that you don't know what you're talking about. You can have Tony Parker as a greater player in your opinion and all... but let's not throw context out the window when discussing accomplishments. Tony Parker's greatest accomplishment was being on the same team as Manu Ginobolli and Tim Duncan... he wasn't even consistently great in the playoffs, his playoff resume is littered with bad games that the Spurs walked away with victories in.... because.... he had Manu and Duncan on his team.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#83 » by Effigy » Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:02 pm

For my list, I started off with the original 50. I felt like anyone I added from that era needed to replace someone from that era. I ended up adding Artis Gilmore, Dominique Wilkins and Dennis Johnson, and I removed James Worthy, Tiny Archibald and Lenny Wilkins. My one exception was Shaq. Shaq had 4 years experience when the list came out. He shouldn't have been in, and he took somebody's spot. So I gave it back to Adrian Dantley, effectively moving Shaq to the list of my next 25.

For the next 24 (after moving Shaq) I only pulled from guys from the period this list was released and later. I had 17 locks, and then I had 7 spots left to fill with 18 people. So 11 cuts.

My LIst: (Not ranked)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Artis Gilmore
Paul Arizin
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Dave Bing
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Cousy
Dave Cowens
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Hal Greer
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Magic Johnson
Sam Jones
Michael Jordan
Jerry Lucas
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Kevin McHale
George Mikan
Earl Monroe
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O’Neal
Robert Parish
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Jerry West
Dennis Johnson
Dominique Wilkins
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnet
Ray Allen
Tracy McGrady
Dwayne Wade
Giannis Antentkounpo
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Stephen Curry
Kevin Garnet
James Harden
Russell Westbrook
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Chris Paul
Allen Iverson
Dwight Howard
Adrian Dantley
Carmello Anthony
Damian Lillard
Paul George
Kawhi Leoard
Grant Hill

Toughest Omissions: Paul Pierce, Pau Gasol, Alonzo Morning, Tim Hardaway, Reggie Miller, Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#84 » by fishfuego. » Mon Nov 1, 2021 8:43 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Nice to see Larry Bird around 6 or 7 on some recent lists. I think he is probably a top 5 guy and really can't believe he could fall out of the top 10 or even near the bottom of it. Unless a lot of weight is just put on him injuring his back and not having a long career. At his peak I am not sure anyone is more impressive outside of Jordan and probably Kareem, though I haven't seen much of Wilt.

I agree with Bird being possibly top 5 right behind Magic, but 6-7 is acceptable, just like DWade should be ahead of some players that I saw play live and were not better IMO. Bird would be considered GOAT if playing today considering how loose opinions are today lol
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#85 » by formula 400 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:17 am

there's no way adolph freakin schayes is better than the mfkn reign man. bs list for old peach basket era guys (arizin, bing, cousy, cowens, cunningham, dantly debusher, greer, havilick, jones russell...). these one dimensional old goons need to move over already. nash, lilliard, kawhi and pg dont belong on this alltime great list, at least not yet for lilliard.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#86 » by Nate the Great » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:05 am

bisme37 wrote:Hoopshype took their shot at a Top 75 of all time list if anyone wants to check it out...

https://hoopshype.com/lists/75-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-hoopshype-list/


The message of that list seems to be “the old guys weren’t very good, it’s all about the guys who were around when I was in high school.”

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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#87 » by TheBobster » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:57 pm

formula 400 wrote:there's no way adolph freakin schayes is better than the mfkn reign man. bs list for old peach basket era guys (arizin, bing, cousy, cowens, cunningham, dantly debusher, greer, havilick, jones russell...). these one dimensional old goons need to move over already. nash, lilliard, kawhi and pg dont belong on this alltime great list, at least not yet for lilliard.


First off, the peach basket was about 50 years pre-NBA. And are we talking about skinny Shawn Kemp or fat Shawn Kemp?

also....

"When he retired in 1964, he [Schayes] held the NBA records for games played (996), foul shots made (6,712), attempted (7,904), personal fouls (3,432) and was second to Bob Pettit in scoring (18,438) and third in rebounds (11,256)"

Schayes (6x All-NBA 1st Team and 6x All-NBA 2nd Team) has much better credentials than Shawn Kemp (3x All-NBA 2nd Team).
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#88 » by Moonbeam » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:24 am

TheBobster wrote:
formula 400 wrote:there's no way adolph freakin schayes is better than the mfkn reign man. bs list for old peach basket era guys (arizin, bing, cousy, cowens, cunningham, dantly debusher, greer, havilick, jones russell...). these one dimensional old goons need to move over already. nash, lilliard, kawhi and pg dont belong on this alltime great list, at least not yet for lilliard.


First off, the peach basket was about 50 years pre-NBA. And are we talking about skinny Shawn Kemp or fat Shawn Kemp?

also....

"When he retired in 1964, he [Schayes] held the NBA records for games played (996), foul shots made (6,712), attempted (7,904), personal fouls (3,432) and was second to Bob Pettit in scoring (18,438) and third in rebounds (11,256)"

Schayes (6x All-NBA 1st Team and 6x All-NBA 2nd Team) has much better credentials than Shawn Kemp (3x All-NBA 2nd Team).


Not to mention that that list of "peach basket" era players includes a guy like Adrian Dantley whose entire career was post-merger and who played into the 1990s.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#89 » by bballfan1three3 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:15 pm

Moonbeam wrote:
TheBobster wrote:
formula 400 wrote:there's no way adolph freakin schayes is better than the mfkn reign man. bs list for old peach basket era guys (arizin, bing, cousy, cowens, cunningham, dantly debusher, greer, havilick, jones russell...). these one dimensional old goons need to move over already. nash, lilliard, kawhi and pg dont belong on this alltime great list, at least not yet for lilliard.


First off, the peach basket was about 50 years pre-NBA. And are we talking about skinny Shawn Kemp or fat Shawn Kemp?

also....

"When he retired in 1964, he [Schayes] held the NBA records for games played (996), foul shots made (6,712), attempted (7,904), personal fouls (3,432) and was second to Bob Pettit in scoring (18,438) and third in rebounds (11,256)"

Schayes (6x All-NBA 1st Team and 6x All-NBA 2nd Team) has much better credentials than Shawn Kemp (3x All-NBA 2nd Team).


Not to mention that that list of "peach basket" era players includes a guy like Adrian Dantley whose entire career was post-merger and who played into the 1990s.

Of course Adrian Dantley, played in the 90s, which was the peach basket era. How else would Kobe 'Bean' Bryant have gotten his name? He grew up on a Great depression era farm, harvesting beans by hand, which is where he got his incredible hand-eye coordination.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#90 » by giannis and 1 » Wed Dec 1, 2021 3:26 am

Moonbeam wrote:2010s-present:

Spoiler:
Al Horford: 5x All-Star, 1x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 1x 3rd)
Anthony Davis: 8x All-Star, 4x All-League (4x 1st, 0x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #61 HOF probability, #61 MVP Shares, #61 RealGM List 2020, #46 HoopsHype List
Blake Griffin: 6x All-Star, 5x All-League (0x 1st, 3x 2nd, 2x 3rd), #88 MVP Shares
Carmelo Anthony: 10x All-Star, 6x All-League (0x 1st, 2x 2nd, 4x 3rd), #79 WS, #63 HOF probability, #77 MVP Shares, #92 RealGM List 2020, #49 HoopsHype List
Chris Bosh: 11x All-Star, 1x All-League (0x 1st, 1x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #75 WS, #50 HOF probability, #86 RealGM List 2020, #64 HoopsHype List
Chris Paul: 11x All-Star, 10x All-League (4x 1st, 5x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #11 WS, #18 HOF probability, #30 MVP Shares, #23 RealGM List 2020, #29 HoopsHype List
Damian Lillard: 6x All-Star, 6x All-League (1x 1st, 4x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #83 HOF probability, #87 MVP Shares, #85 RealGM List 2020, #52 HoopsHype List
Derrick Rose: 3x All-Star, 1x All-League (1x 1st, 0x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #45 MVP Shares
Draymond Green: 3x All-Star, 2x All-League (0x 1st, 1x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #98 RealGM List 2020
Dwight Howard: 8x All-Star, 8x All-League (5x 1st, 1x 2nd, 2x 3rd), #35 WS, #47 HOF probability, #38 MVP Shares, #51 RealGM List 2020, #62 HoopsHype List
Dwyane Wade: 13x All-Star, 8x All-League (2x 1st, 3x 2nd, 3x 3rd), #49 WS, #17 HOF probability, #54 MVP Shares, #28 RealGM List 2020, #22 HoopsHype List
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 5x All-Star, 5x All-League (3x 1st, 2x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #25 MVP Shares, #74 RealGM List 2020, #24 HoopsHype List
James Harden: 9x All-Star, 7x All-League (6x 1st, 0x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #33 WS, #33 HOF probability, #12 MVP Shares, #31 RealGM List 2020, #39 HoopsHype List
Jimmy Butler: 5x All-Star, 4x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 4x 3rd)
Joakim Noah: 2x All-Star, 1x All-League (1x 1st, 0x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #97 MVP Shares
Joel Embiid: 4x All-Star, 3x All-League (0x 1st, 3x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #63 MVP Shares
John Wall: 5x All-Star, 1x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 1x 3rd)
Kawhi Leonard: 5x All-Star, 5x All-League (3x 1st, 2x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #96 HOF probability, #40 MVP Shares, #42 RealGM List 2020, #34 HoopsHype List
Kevin Durant: 11x All-Star, 9x All-League (6x 1st, 3x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #27 WS, #21 HOF probability, #14 MVP Shares, #22 RealGM List 2020, #13 HoopsHype List
Kevin Love: 5x All-Star, 2x All-League (0x 1st, 2x 2nd, 0x 3rd)
Klay Thompson: 5x All-Star, 2x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 2x 3rd)
Kyle Lowry: 6x All-Star, 1x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #95 WS, #88 HOF probability
Kyrie Irving: 7x All-Star, 3x All-League (0x 1st, 1x 2nd, 2x 3rd), #91 HOF probability
LaMarcus Aldridge: 7x All-Star, 5x All-League (0x 1st, 2x 2nd, 3x 3rd), #60 WS
LeBron James: 17x All-Star, 17x All-League (13x 1st, 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #3 WS, #2 HOF probability, #1 MVP Shares, #1 RealGM List 2020, #2 HoopsHype List
Luka Dončić: 2x All-Star, 2x All-League (2x 1st, 0x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #99 MVP Shares
Manu Ginóbili: 2x All-Star, 2x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 2x 3rd), #72 WS, #53 RealGM List 2020
Nikola Jokić: 3x All-Star, 3x All-League (2x 1st, 1x 2nd, 0x 3rd), #39 MVP Shares, #95 RealGM List 2020
Pau Gasol: 6x All-Star, 4x All-League (0x 1st, 2x 2nd, 2x 3rd), #31 WS, #78 HOF probability, #49 RealGM List 2020, #57 HoopsHype List
Paul George: 7x All-Star, 6x All-League (1x 1st, 0x 2nd, 5x 3rd), #90 HOF probability, #83 MVP Shares
Russell Westbrook: 9x All-Star, 9x All-League (2x 1st, 5x 2nd, 2x 3rd), #80 WS, #40 HOF probability, #31 MVP Shares, #44 RealGM List 2020, #47 HoopsHype List
Stephen Curry: 7x All-Star, 7x All-League (4x 1st, 2x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #62 WS, #35 HOF probability, #20 MVP Shares, #24 RealGM List 2020, #18 HoopsHype List
Tyson Chandler: 1x All-Star, 1x All-League (0x 1st, 0x 2nd, 1x 3rd), #84 WS


Let's see those lists!

Interesting that out of the current players in this list, the four youngest are European or African.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#91 » by BarbaGrizz » Mon Dec 6, 2021 3:27 pm

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 LBJ
5 Bill Russell
6 Magic
7 Larry Bird
8 Shaq
9 Tim Duncan
10 Hakeen
11 Kobe
12 Cousy
13 Oscar Robertson
14 Jerry West
15 Dr. J
16 Elgin Baylor
17 Steph Curry
18 Dirk
19 Jerry West
20 Karl Malone
21 Moses Malone
22 Kevin Garnett
23 David Robinson
24 John Stockton
25 Kevin Durant
26 Barkley
27 Giannis
28 Havlicek
29 Isiah Thomas
30 Wade
31 Pippen
32 Bob Pettit
33 Iverson
34 George Mikan
35 Jason Kidd
36 Pat Ewing
37 Rick Barry
38 Steve Nash
39 Chris Paul
40 Tiny Archibald
41 Elvin Hayes
42 Gary Payton
43 Clyde Drexler
44 George Gervin
45 James Worthy
46 Bob McAdoo
47 Dominique Wilkins
48 Wes Unseld
49 Bill Walton
50 Reggie Miller
51 Pau Gasol
52 Walt Frazier
53 Kevin McHale
54 Willis Reed
55 Dolph Shayes
56 Pete Maravich
57 Robert Parish
58 Carmelo Anthony
59 Manu Ginobili
60 Vince Carter
61 Paul Arizin
62 Bill Sharman
63 Alex English
64 Lenny Wilkens
65 Nikola Jokic
66 Tony Parker
67 Nate Thurmond,
68 Dave DeBusschere
69 Dennis Rodman
70 Hal Greer
71 Alonzo Mourning
72 Dikembe Mutombo
73 Kawhi Leonard
74 Sam Jones
75 Paul Pierce
Celtic Koala wrote:The only player from the 90's that would have been a top 10 player in the modern league would have been MJ and if you stretch it a bit Olajuwon.
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#92 » by wojoaderge » Yesterday 3:23 am

BarbaGrizz wrote:1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 LBJ
5 Bill Russell
6 Magic
7 Larry Bird
8 Shaq
9 Tim Duncan
10 Hakeen
11 Kobe
12 Cousy
13 Oscar Robertson
14 Jerry West
15 Dr. J
16 Elgin Baylor
17 Steph Curry
18 Dirk
19 Jerry West
20 Karl Malone
21 Moses Malone
22 Kevin Garnett
23 David Robinson
24 John Stockton
25 Kevin Durant
26 Barkley
27 Giannis
28 Havlicek
29 Isiah Thomas
30 Wade
31 Pippen
32 Bob Pettit
33 Iverson
34 George Mikan
35 Jason Kidd
36 Pat Ewing
37 Rick Barry
38 Steve Nash
39 Chris Paul
40 Tiny Archibald
41 Elvin Hayes
42 Gary Payton
43 Clyde Drexler
44 George Gervin
45 James Worthy
46 Bob McAdoo
47 Dominique Wilkins
48 Wes Unseld
49 Bill Walton
50 Reggie Miller
51 Pau Gasol
52 Walt Frazier
53 Kevin McHale
54 Willis Reed
55 Dolph Shayes
56 Pete Maravich
57 Robert Parish
58 Carmelo Anthony
59 Manu Ginobili
60 Vince Carter
61 Paul Arizin
62 Bill Sharman
63 Alex English
64 Lenny Wilkens
65 Nikola Jokic
66 Tony Parker
67 Nate Thurmond,
68 Dave DeBusschere
69 Dennis Rodman
70 Hal Greer
71 Alonzo Mourning
72 Dikembe Mutombo
73 Kawhi Leonard
74 Sam Jones
75 Paul Pierce

Cowens?
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Re: RealGM Top 75 GOAT Poll 

Post#93 » by BarbaGrizz » Yesterday 5:52 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
Spoiler:
BarbaGrizz wrote:1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 LBJ
5 Bill Russell
6 Magic
7 Larry Bird
8 Shaq
9 Tim Duncan
10 Hakeen
11 Kobe
12 Cousy
13 Oscar Robertson
14 Jerry West
15 Dr. J
16 Elgin Baylor
17 Steph Curry
18 Dirk
19 Jerry West
20 Karl Malone
21 Moses Malone
22 Kevin Garnett
23 David Robinson
24 John Stockton
25 Kevin Durant
26 Barkley
27 Giannis
28 Havlicek
29 Isiah Thomas
30 Wade
31 Pippen
32 Bob Pettit
33 Iverson
34 George Mikan
35 Jason Kidd
36 Pat Ewing
37 Rick Barry
38 Steve Nash
39 Chris Paul
40 Tiny Archibald
41 Elvin Hayes
42 Gary Payton
43 Clyde Drexler
44 George Gervin
45 James Worthy
46 Bob McAdoo
47 Dominique Wilkins
48 Wes Unseld
49 Bill Walton
50 Reggie Miller
51 Pau Gasol
52 Walt Frazier
53 Kevin McHale
54 Willis Reed
55 Dolph Shayes
56 Pete Maravich
57 Robert Parish
58 Carmelo Anthony
59 Manu Ginobili
60 Vince Carter
61 Paul Arizin
62 Bill Sharman
63 Alex English
64 Lenny Wilkens
65 Nikola Jokic
66 Tony Parker
67 Nate Thurmond,
68 Dave DeBusschere
69 Dennis Rodman
70 Hal Greer
71 Alonzo Mourning
72 Dikembe Mutombo
73 Kawhi Leonard
74 Sam Jones
75 Paul Pierce

Cowens?

Ouch, nice one...definitely missed him
Celtic Koala wrote:The only player from the 90's that would have been a top 10 player in the modern league would have been MJ and if you stretch it a bit Olajuwon.

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