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Moonbeam wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:Dr. J feels more like fringe top 10 than between 15 and 22. As much as I liked KG and some of those people have ahead of them, Dr. J just feels like a bigger star player than many of those guys..not sure how many on that list had 17 all league, but that's a hell of a lot.

Yeah, Dr. J was incredible and I feel his star is slightly fading more than it should. I've seen compelling arguments that although the ABA started out as a clearly weaker league, it pretty much closed the gap by the merger, and Dr J absolutely crushed the final ABA season before the merger and made an excellent transition to the NBA.

I'm working on my own list and I don't what to do with Dr. J and Gilmore. If we consider the ABA, then I know that I have Erving 16th all-time. But then I would also probably put Mel Daniels in my Top 50, and I don't think he has any business being on a NBA 75 list.

wojoaderge wrote:

Moonbeam wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:Dr. J feels more like fringe top 10 than between 15 and 22. As much as I liked KG and some of those people have ahead of them, Dr. J just feels like a bigger star player than many of those guys..not sure how many on that list had 17 all league, but that's a hell of a lot.

Yeah, Dr. J was incredible and I feel his star is slightly fading more than it should. I've seen compelling arguments that although the ABA started out as a clearly weaker league, it pretty much closed the gap by the merger, and Dr J absolutely crushed the final ABA season before the merger and made an excellent transition to the NBA.

I'm working on my own list and I don't what to do with Dr. J and Gilmore. If we consider the ABA, then I know that I have Erving 16th all-time. But then I would also probably put Mel Daniels in my Top 50, and I don't think he has any business being on a NBA 75 list.

Looking forward to your list as you and I both seem to like a lot of the same players.

I'd put together the list however you see fit. If you want to base your rankings based on only BAA/NBA contributions, that makes sense.

Both Erving and Gilmore had about 9 quality NBA seasons before their skills started to deteriorate to the point where they weren't stars. And both were better in the ABA than the NBA. I was surprised how well Gilmore's NBA production matched Erving's actually, but I do think Erving was a notch below Bird and Magic when they came into the league (ABA Erving was probably pretty close though).

In the end though, Magic played only 70 more NBA regular season games than Erving and Bird played only 61 more. Erving had more star power than, say, Moses Malone, but Malone was clearly a better NBA player.

TheBobster wrote:I do think Erving was a notch below Bird and Magic when they came into the league (ABA Erving was probably pretty close though).

I'm not sure what you mean by this. He came directly from the ABA off an an MVP and championship season (please don't say "his stats declined').

I admire the lists that have already been submitted. I think that Michael would have been hard pressed to win earlier titles because of great teams and the Jordan rules, but probably the the two titles that he missed for baseball, and maybe another one if the two Jerry’s hadn’t quit on Phil and the team were well within reach. That’s 9 titles. 6 is still an incredible achievement of pure determination and leadership. But then Russell was one injury, against Petit and the Hawks, plus one game 7 loss to the great Wilt Chamberlain and a truly stellar Sixers squad, from an immaculate career. 11 out of 13 possible NBA titles after two NCAAs with little USF, and Olympic gold. That’s 14 out of 16. And I’ve heard nobody explain it, because while his individual stats were more than respectable, he never ended a season leading in any category. Just the title. Since he generally stymied my favorite player growing up, Wilt the Stilt, I probably overestimate Russell as GOAT, but I suspect those not old enough to have watched him underestimate his determination and leadership.
(Also, I don’t know how much folks appreciate what a Superhero the Doctor was when he forced the NBA to merge with the high fiving ABA, which had a huge impact on young players developing the style and audacity that make the modern game special.)

wojoaderge wrote:

TheBobster wrote:I do think Erving was a notch below Bird and Magic when they came into the league (ABA Erving was probably pretty close though).

I'm not sure what you mean by this. He came directly from the ABA off an an MVP and championship season (please don't say "his stats declined').

Simply put, he wasn't as dominant in the NBA as he was in the ABA. He was still a great player, just not the best in the league (Kareem was, then briefly Walton probably was).

And the merger was agreed upon in 1970, before Erving even turned pro, but blocked by the NBA Players Union before it finally went through in 1976 when it looked like the ABA might fold. So Erving really didn't force anything, although the NBA did want to get their hands on Erving and Gilmore.

Some of these panelist lists from USA Today are pretty out there: https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/sports/nba/2021/10/08/nba-greatest-75-michael-jordan-panalists-vote/5879705001/

OK, I have a list I am satisfied with. I feel I gave every candidate due diligence from the very beginning all the way to the present day. I did ignore the ABA, but the Doctor only moved down 3 spaces. Rick Barry moved down 2. The A-Train took a massive hit though - only 2 playoff appearances as his team's best player will do that imo.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Tim Duncan
9. George Mikan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Shaquille O'Neal
12. Moses Malone
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Kevin Durant
17. Stephen Curry
18. Bob Pettit
19. Julius Erving (NBA only)
20. Chris Paul
21. David Robinson
22. Dirk Nowitzki
23. Dwyane Wade
24. Karl Malone
25. Charles Barkley
26. Kevin Garnett
27. Elgin Baylor
28. John Havlicek
29. James Harden
30. Rick Barry (NBA only)
31. Dolph Schayes
32. Walt Frazier
33. Steve Nash
34. Willis Reed
35. Elvin Hayes
36. George Gervin
37. Dave Cowens
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Jason Kidd
41. Kawhi Leonard
42. John Stockton
43. Patrick Ewing
44. Gary Payton
45. Russell Westbrook
46. Dwight Howard
47. Allen Iverson
48. Bob Cousy
49. Clyde Drexler
50. Anthony Davis
51. Adrian Dantley
52, Dominique Wilkins
53. Alex English
54. Giannis Antetokounmpo
55. Wes Unseld
56. Bob McAdoo
57. Paul Pierce
58. Dennis Rodman
59. Sam Jones
60. Hal Greer
61. Kevin McHale
62. Paul Arizin
63. Nate Thurmond
64. Neil Johnston
65. Tracy McGrady
66. Bill Sharman
67. Carmelo Anthony
68. Pau Gasol
69. Damien Lillard
70. Ray Allen
71. Bob Lanier
72. Artis Gilmore (NBA only)
73. Bob Davies
74. Slater Martin
75. Bernard King


Others I considered: Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, Ed Macauley, Vern Mikkelsen, Bill Walton, Tommy Heinsohn, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkens, James Worthy, Robert Parish, Alonzo Mourning, Grant Hill, Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, Jerry Lucas, Dave Bing, Nikola Jokic

wojoaderge wrote:OK, I have a list I am satisfied with. I feel I gave every candidate due diligence from the very beginning all the way to the present day. I did ignore the ABA, but the Doctor only moved down 3 spaces. Rick Barry moved down 2. The A-Train took a massive hit though - only 2 playoff appearances as his team's best player will do that imo.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Tim Duncan
9. George Mikan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Shaquille O'Neal
12. Moses Malone
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Kevin Durant
17. Stephen Curry
18. Bob Pettit
19. Julius Erving (NBA only)
20. Chris Paul
21. David Robinson
22. Dirk Nowitzki
23. Dwyane Wade
24. Karl Malone
25. Charles Barkley
26. Kevin Garnett
27. Elgin Baylor
28. John Havlicek
29. James Harden
30. Rick Barry (NBA only)
31. Dolph Schayes
32. Walt Frazier
33. Steve Nash
34. Willis Reed
35. Elvin Hayes
36. George Gervin
37. Dave Cowens
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Jason Kidd
41. Kawhi Leonard
42. John Stockton
43. Patrick Ewing
44. Gary Payton
45. Russell Westbrook
46. Dwight Howard
47. Allen Iverson
48. Bob Cousy
49. Clyde Drexler
50. Anthony Davis
51. Adrian Dantley
52, Dominique Wilkins
53. Alex English
54. Giannis Antetokounmpo
55. Wes Unseld
56. Bob McAdoo
57. Paul Pierce
58. Dennis Rodman
59. Sam Jones
60. Hal Greer
61. Kevin McHale
62. Paul Arizin
63. Nate Thurmond
64. Neil Johnston
65. Tracy McGrady
66. Bill Sharman
67. Carmelo Anthony
68. Pau Gasol
69. Damien Lillard
70. Ray Allen
71. Bob Lanier
72. Artis Gilmore (NBA only)
73. Bob Davies
74. Slater Martin
75. Bernard King


Others I considered: Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, Ed Macauley, Vern Mikkelsen, Bill Walton, Tommy Heinsohn, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkens, James Worthy, Robert Parish, Alonzo Mourning, Grant Hill, Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, Jerry Lucas, Dave Bing, Nikola Jokic

How can you justify Mikan over Shaq and Olajuwon, and so many others?

Unranked (referenced from wojoaderge)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Tim Duncan
9. George Mikan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Shaquille O'Neal
12. Moses Malone
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Kevin Durant
17. Stephen Curry
18. Bob Pettit
19. Julius Erving
20. Chris Paul
21. David Robinson
22. Dirk Nowitzki
23. Dwyane Wade
24. Karl Malone
25. Charles Barkley
26. Kevin Garnett
27. Elgin Baylor
28. John Havlicek
29. James Harden
30. Rick Barry
31. Dolph Schayes
32. Walt Frazier
33. Steve Nash
34. Willis Reed
35. Elvin Hayes
36. George Gervin
37. Rasheed Wallace
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Jason Kidd
41. Kawhi Leonard
42. John Stockton
43. Patrick Ewing
44. Gary Payton
45. Russell Westbrook
46. Dwight Howard
47. Paul George
48. Bob Cousy
49. Clyde Drexler
50. Anthony Davis
51. Adrian Dantley
52, Dominique Wilkins
53. Alex English
54. Giannis Antetokounmpo
55. Wes Unseld
56. Bob McAdoo
57. George Yardley
58. Dennis Rodman
59. Sam Jones
60. Hal Greer
61. Kevin McHale
62. Paul Arizin
63. Nate Thurmond
64. Neil Johnston
65. Alonzo Mourning
66. Bill Sharman
67. Dave Cowens
68. Pau Gasol
69. Damian Lillard
70. Ray Allen
71. Bob Lanier
72. Artis Gilmore
73. Bill Walton
74. Sidney Moncreif
75. Bernard King

dautjazz wrote:

wojoaderge wrote:OK, I have a list I am satisfied with. I feel I gave every candidate due diligence from the very beginning all the way to the present day. I did ignore the ABA, but the Doctor only moved down 3 spaces. Rick Barry moved down 2. The A-Train took a massive hit though - only 2 playoff appearances as his team's best player will do that imo.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Tim Duncan
9. George Mikan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Shaquille O'Neal
12. Moses Malone
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Kevin Durant
17. Stephen Curry
18. Bob Pettit
19. Julius Erving (NBA only)
20. Chris Paul
21. David Robinson
22. Dirk Nowitzki
23. Dwyane Wade
24. Karl Malone
25. Charles Barkley
26. Kevin Garnett
27. Elgin Baylor
28. John Havlicek
29. James Harden
30. Rick Barry (NBA only)
31. Dolph Schayes
32. Walt Frazier
33. Steve Nash
34. Willis Reed
35. Elvin Hayes
36. George Gervin
37. Dave Cowens
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Jason Kidd
41. Kawhi Leonard
42. John Stockton
43. Patrick Ewing
44. Gary Payton
45. Russell Westbrook
46. Dwight Howard
47. Allen Iverson
48. Bob Cousy
49. Clyde Drexler
50. Anthony Davis
51. Adrian Dantley
52, Dominique Wilkins
53. Alex English
54. Giannis Antetokounmpo
55. Wes Unseld
56. Bob McAdoo
57. Paul Pierce
58. Dennis Rodman
59. Sam Jones
60. Hal Greer
61. Kevin McHale
62. Paul Arizin
63. Nate Thurmond
64. Neil Johnston
65. Tracy McGrady
66. Bill Sharman
67. Carmelo Anthony
68. Pau Gasol
69. Damien Lillard
70. Ray Allen
71. Bob Lanier
72. Artis Gilmore (NBA only)
73. Bob Davies
74. Slater Martin
75. Bernard King


Others I considered: Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, Ed Macauley, Vern Mikkelsen, Bill Walton, Tommy Heinsohn, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkens, James Worthy, Robert Parish, Alonzo Mourning, Grant Hill, Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, Jerry Lucas, Dave Bing, Nikola Jokic

How can you justify Mikan over Shaq and Olajuwon, and so many others?

5 championships as his team's best player, at least 4 MVP-worthy seasons (before MVPs were awarded)

For dominance within era, Mikan is arguably a GOAT candidate. Obviously the era he played in was the weakest in the league’s history, but there are arguments to be made for Mikan in the top 10. However users wish to balance in-era dominance vs skill set in a bubble will determine where a player like Mikan might rank.

Statlanta wrote:Unranked (referenced from wojoaderge)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Tim Duncan
9. George Mikan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Shaquille O'Neal
12. Moses Malone
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Kevin Durant
17. Stephen Curry
18. Bob Pettit
19. Julius Erving
20. Chris Paul
21. David Robinson
22. Dirk Nowitzki
23. Dwyane Wade
24. Karl Malone
25. Charles Barkley
26. Kevin Garnett
27. Elgin Baylor
28. John Havlicek
29. James Harden
30. Rick Barry
31. Dolph Schayes
32. Walt Frazier
33. Steve Nash
34. Willis Reed
35. Elvin Hayes
36. George Gervin
37. Dave Cowens
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Jason Kidd
41. Kawhi Leonard
42. John Stockton
43. Patrick Ewing
44. Gary Payton
45. Russell Westbrook
46. Dwight Howard
47. Allen Iverson
48. Bob Cousy
49. Clyde Drexler
50. Anthony Davis
51. Adrian Dantley
52, Dominique Wilkins
53. Alex English
54. Giannis Antetokounmpo
55. Wes Unseld
56. Bob McAdoo
57. Elvin Hayes
58. Dennis Rodman
59. Sam Jones
60. Hal Greer
61. Kevin McHale
62. Paul Arizin
63. Nate Thurmond
64. Neil Johnston
65. Alonzo Mourning
66. Bill Sharman
67. Dave Cowens
68. Pau Gasol
69. Damian Lillard
70. Ray Allen
71. Bob Lanier
72. Artis Gilmore
73. Bill Walton
74. Sidney Moncreif
75. Bernard King

Great list, but you've got Dave Cowens and Elvin Hayes listed twice. Want to add another 2?

I've been working on my rankings over the last couple of days, It's obviously super hard (especially after the first 25 or so guys) since you're trying to weigh guys that you've watched play versus a bunch that you haven't. I do love spending time researching the history of the league, so this was right up my alley and a ton of fun, even though I often felt I had no clue what I was doing, especially when doing the lower parts of the ranking. I Imagine I probably just randomly forgot some that should be listed, too.

My rankings:

Honorable mentions that I strongly considered for the last handful of spots, per position:

Message Boar wrote:I've been working on my rankings over the last couple of days, It's obviously super hard (especially after the first 25 or so guys) since you're trying to weigh guys that you've watched play versus a bunch that you haven't. I do love spending time researching the history of the league, so this was right up my alley and a ton of fun, even though I often felt I had no clue what I was doing, especially when doing the lower parts of the ranking. I Imagine I probably just randomly forgot some that should be listed, too.

My rankings:

Spoiler:

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3 LeBron James
4 Wilt Chamberlain
5 Bill Russell
6 Magic Johnson
7 Larry Bird
8 Tim Duncan
9 Jerry West
10 Hakeem Olajuwon

11 Shaquille O’Neal
12 Oscar Robertson
13 Kobe Bryant
14 Julius Erving
15 Elgin Baylor
16 Moses Malone
17 Kevin Durant
18 Charles Barkley
19 Stephen Curry
20 Bob Pettitt

21 George Mikan
22 John Havlicek
23 Dirk Nowitzki
24 Chris Paul
25 Karl Malone
26 Kevin Garnett
27 Isiah Thomas
28 Giannis Antetokounmpo
29 David Robinson
30 Dwyane Wade

31 Rick Barry
32 Scottie Pippen
33 John Stockton
34 Bob Cousy
35 Bill Walton
36 Clyde Drexler
37 Kawhi Leonard
38 Steve Nash
39 Kevin McHale
40 Dominique Wilkins
41 Walt “Clyde” Frazier
42 Patrick Ewing
43 George Gervin
44 Allen Iverson
45 Dave Cowens
46 Dolph Schayes
47 James Harden
48 Willis Reed
49 James Worthy
50 Sam Jones

51 Elvin Hayes
52 Paul Arizin
53 Gary Payton
54 Jason Kidd
55 Robert Parish
56 Dwight Howard
57 Russell Westbrook
58 Wes Unseld
59 Paul Pierce
60 Jerry Lucas

61 Nate Thurmond
62 Adrian Dantley
63 Bob McAdoo
64 Reggie Miller
65 Nikola Jokic
66 Carmelo Anthony
67 Damian Lillard
68 Pau Gasol
69 Sidney Moncrief
70 Dave DeBusschere

71 Tommy Heinsohn
72 Bernard King
73 Hal Greer
74 Ray Allen
75 Tony Parker

Honorable mentions that I strongly considered for the last handful of spots, per position:

Spoiler:

PG: Dennis Johnson, Tiny Archibald, Earl Monroe
SG: Klay Thompson, Joe Dumars, Pete Maravich, Bill Sharman
SF: Alex English, Billy Cunningham, Tracy McGrady, Chris Mullin
PF: Chris Bosh, Dennis Rodman, Chris Webber, Shawn Kemp
C: Dikembe Mutombo, Artis Gilmore

Great list! There's nobody obvious you've left off. The highest ranked player in our collective list that didn't make at least your honorable mentions is at #62.

Nice to see Larry Bird around 6 or 7 on some recent lists. I think he is probably a top 5 guy and really can't believe he could fall out of the top 10 or even near the bottom of it. Unless a lot of weight is just put on him injuring his back and not having a long career. At his peak I am not sure anyone is more impressive outside of Jordan and probably Kareem, though I haven't seen much of Wilt.

Just over 2 days left. Get those lists in!

Kinda odd, but I've always considered Stockton>Malone. Looks like the rest of the world votes the other way.

jazzfan1971 wrote:Kinda odd, but I've always considered Stockton>Malone. Looks like the rest of the world votes the other way.

I'd love to see a list from you!

bwgood77 wrote:Nice to see Larry Bird around 6 or 7 on some recent lists. I think he is probably a top 5 guy and really can't believe he could fall out of the top 10 or even near the bottom of it. Unless a lot of weight is just put on him injuring his back and not having a long career. At his peak I am not sure anyone is more impressive outside of Jordan and probably Kareem, though I haven't seen much of Wilt.

Hoping you've got a list on the way.