Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind

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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#61 » by Curmudgeon » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:06 pm

DroseReturnChi wrote:i dont think curry even survive 82 games of gary payton and mj swarming. he would get exposed.


LOL, they wouldn't survive 82 games against Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer. Curry would be snapped in two like a twig when he drove to the rack.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#62 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:11 pm

WarriorGM wrote:Pace keeps getting brought up as a reason. But that ignores the ability of someone like Curry to increase it.

If he is left alone as he crosses the half court and isn't defended closely at the perimeter all he needs to do is do a pull-up three repeatedly early on the shot clock and the pace will increase.

Still averaging 30 is difficult. Averaging 40 is hyperbole. They could probably do it if they took every shot but they wouldn't play like that.


The reality is the better a player is, the more assists should go up with modern game theory vs scoring or at least as points go up beyond a point the assists will keep going at a greater rate from there. It's similar to why I think MJ in today's game doesn't score more, but his assists would greatly increase.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#63 » by WarriorGM » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:11 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:i dont think curry even survive 82 games of gary payton and mj swarming. he would get exposed.


LOL, they wouldn't survive 82 games against Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer. Curry would be snapped in two like a twig when he drove to the rack.


Curry would only drive to the rack after those guys had keeled over and required blood transfusions from running up and down the court.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#64 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:13 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:i dont think curry even survive 82 games of gary payton and mj swarming. he would get exposed.


LOL, they wouldn't survive 82 games against Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer. Curry would be snapped in two like a twig when he drove to the rack.


Meanwhile this guy was all nba while being shorter and smaller than Curry...

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This was a quality starter.

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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#65 » by Winsome Gerbil » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:16 pm

Lol.

They actually played defense back then, and were allowed to on the perimeter. And the whole league was walking the ball up, strangling pace. In the mid-decade leaguewise pace in 1994-95 was 92.9, and 91.8 in 95-96. The last time Steph Curry had to play at a pace even possible in that era, he averaged 22.9pts for Mark Jackson. The last time Harden did he was still a backup in OKC.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#66 » by Winsome Gerbil » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:21 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
DroseReturnChi wrote:i dont think curry even survive 82 games of gary payton and mj swarming. he would get exposed.


LOL, they wouldn't survive 82 games against Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer. Curry would be snapped in two like a twig when he drove to the rack.


Meanwhile this guy was all nba while being shorter and smaller than Curry...

Image

This was a quality starter.

Image


Perhaps tagging Price wasn't the greatest example, as he indeed got broken up physically and retired early, and that was on half the usage rate people are pondering for guys like Harden and Curry.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#67 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:32 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
LOL, they wouldn't survive 82 games against Rick Mahorn, Charles Oakley and Bill Laimbeer. Curry would be snapped in two like a twig when he drove to the rack.


Meanwhile this guy was all nba while being shorter and smaller than Curry...



This was a quality starter.


Perhaps tagging Price wasn't the greatest example, as he indeed got broken up physically and retired early, and that was on half the usage rate people are pondering for guys like Harden and Curry.


He still played 700 games. I assume we're talking a 1 season peak here. But we just had people reference Curry being broken, like a twig when he's likely playing closer to 200 these days while price was 170-180 in his playing days. And broken maybe, but even he wasn't broken like a twig.

Curry's size compares favorably with John Starks who was a "shooting guard" in that era. Who also peaked as a 19 a game scorer and doesn't have half the skill of curry. Bit better vertical though...
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#68 » by WarriorGM » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:44 pm

Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars were giants weren't they?
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#69 » by jerok » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:52 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:As long as teams struggle to find super athletes to cover Curry like Matthew Dellevadova and Fred Van Vleet. I’m not sure anyone had those kinds of horses.


I'm sure Curry or Harden would have a field day guarded by the likes of,
Danny Ainge
Rick Carisle
Craig Ehlo
Dan Majerle, etc.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#70 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:57 pm

jerok wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:As long as teams struggle to find super athletes to cover Curry like Matthew Dellevadova and Fred Van Vleet. I’m not sure anyone had those kinds of horses.


I'm sure Curry or Harden would have a field day guarded by the likes of,
Danny Ainge
Rick Carisle
Craig Ehlo
Dan Majerle, etc.


Majerle would actually be a decent defender even today. Great hands, great size, a bit laterally slow but explosive.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#71 » by khufure » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:46 pm

Joshyjess wrote:I don't know about Curry, but Harden - no way. Baiting wouldn't have been called back then, so Harden wouldn't be getting his 87 free throws every night.

Harden would've gotten his ass kicked on & off the court for his FT baiting. I like imagining this with various 80's & 90's players (Oakley, Mason, Lambeer, etc.).
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#72 » by camby23 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:56 pm

Lunartic wrote:Agreed, there's absolutely no way 90's players would have realized they had to actually guard shooters at the 3 point line.

You see, back then defense was optional and if you ran far enough away from the rim, you were left alone.

Unlike today's defense, which is hard nosed and physical and players like Harden and Curry are constantly hand-checked, bodied up and are forced to earn their FTA.



You are talking about physicality, but name one 90's player who was guarded off ball like that:

https://streamable.com/b2fm7u

And then people like you are saying that now defense looks like sh... It looks like that because the offense in 5x better than 20-30 years ago. It's preatty easy to defend when 4 of 5 players can't shoot and when most of the plyares are playing ISO and taking bad shots.

It's also funny when people are talking about FTA considering that average FTA in 90's was higher than in 10's

1990-1999 - 26.6 FTA

2010-2020 - 22.9 FTA
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#73 » by HEAT33 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:01 pm

Curry would do better than harden, in the 90’s they would also tap your elbows and push around on the perimeter so it would be harder for them to get it off.

Harden would crying to the refs all game then an enforcer would put him down to have something to cry about.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#74 » by druggas » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:02 pm

Bornstellar wrote:Guys think chucking 3s non stop = more skill :lol:
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#75 » by Quattro » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:08 pm

KrazyP wrote:As a reverse argument, I think guys like Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond and Glen Rice would probably score 30+ in this era.


Damn. How scary would Reggie Miller be playing today? Never thought of that
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#76 » by Lunartic » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:08 pm

camby23 wrote:
Lunartic wrote:Agreed, there's absolutely no way 90's players would have realized they had to actually guard shooters at the 3 point line.

You see, back then defense was optional and if you ran far enough away from the rim, you were left alone.

Unlike today's defense, which is hard nosed and physical and players like Harden and Curry are constantly hand-checked, bodied up and are forced to earn their FTA.



You are talking about physicality, but name one 90's player who was guarded off ball like that:

https://streamable.com/b2fm7u

And then people like you are saying that now defense looks like sh... It looks like that because the offense in 5x better than 20-30 years ago. It's preatty easy to defend when 4 of 5 players can't shoot and when most of the plyares are playing ISO and taking bad shots.

It's also funny when people are talking about FTA considering that average FTA in 90's was higher than in 10's

1990-1999 - 26.6 FTA

2010-2020 - 22.9 FTA




I know you said "off-ball" but Curry is a deadly off-ball scorer, possibly the best in NBA history so it's not very different from MJ being guarded on-ball.

I don't understand, are you saying 90s era players wouldn't realize Curry is shooting from the outside and would just wait for him to pullup for a two? It's a pretty quick adjustment to make. The moment MJ/Pippen realize that Curry is scoring from long range they would just constantly harass and bump and grab and handcheck him and make his life difficult.

There's this strange mentality people have in reference to past era players vs today's. As if, past players are stuck in the past and ONLY will play like it's the 90's. Past players aren't idiots and present players aren't enlightened geniuses. If you see some lightweight guard making shots from range, you just get closer to him and chase him off the line. Not a very radical adjustment. Curry would be a great player in any era because he's incredibly skilled.

Comparing raw FTA between eras while ignoring the obvious difference in officiating defense is meaningless. Perhaps FTA were up simply because players played far more physically? Is your honest interpretation that today's defense is more aggressive and physical than past eras? That would be pretty radical.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#77 » by camby23 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:27 pm

Lunartic wrote:
camby23 wrote:
Lunartic wrote:Agreed, there's absolutely no way 90's players would have realized they had to actually guard shooters at the 3 point line.

You see, back then defense was optional and if you ran far enough away from the rim, you were left alone.

Unlike today's defense, which is hard nosed and physical and players like Harden and Curry are constantly hand-checked, bodied up and are forced to earn their FTA.



You are talking about physicality, but name one 90's player who was guarded off ball like that:

https://streamable.com/b2fm7u

And then people like you are saying that now defense looks like sh... It looks like that because the offense in 5x better than 20-30 years ago. It's preatty easy to defend when 4 of 5 players can't shoot and when most of the plyares are playing ISO and taking bad shots.

It's also funny when people are talking about FTA considering that average FTA in 90's was higher than in 10's

1990-1999 - 26.6 FTA

2010-2020 - 22.9 FTA




I know you said "off-ball" but Curry is a deadly off-ball scorer, possibly the best in NBA history so it's not very different from MJ being guarded on-ball.

I don't understand, are you saying 90s era players wouldn't realize Curry is shooting from the outside and would just wait for him to pullup for a two? It's a pretty quick adjustment to make. The moment MJ/Pippen realize that Curry is scoring from long range they would just constantly harass and bump and grab and handcheck him and make his life difficult.

There's this strange mentality people have in reference to past era players vs today's. As if, past players are stuck in the past and ONLY will play like it's the 90's. Past players aren't idiots and present players aren't enlightened geniuses. If you see some lightweight guard making shots from range, you just get closer to him and chase him off the line. Not a very radical adjustment. Curry would be a great player in any era because he's incredibly skilled.

Comparing raw FTA between eras while ignoring the obvious difference in officiating defense is meaningless. Perhaps FTA were up simply because players played far more physically? Is your honest interpretation that today's defense is more aggressive and physical than past eras? That would be pretty radical.


Of course they would make adjustments. 90's coaches were not idiots. But Curry, Harden, Lillard, Young etc. in 90s = defense have to start not 19 ft from the basket like in the 90's but more like 29 ft like now = more space to cover and more space for your teammates (who also can shoot) = defense doesnt look so great anymore.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#78 » by mulamutti » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:33 pm

umm, Charles oakley types would clobber them in the lane. So no.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#79 » by Harry Garris » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:It's difficult to compare across different eras. So IMO, it's only useful to compare players/teams within eras.

With that said, almost everything gets better over time. It's a little nonsensical to think that basketball isn't one of them. And this coming from someone who used to think that Jordan's era was the best ever.


Which is why people respond with hyperbolic and oversimplified arguments such as the only skill development now is players just shoot a lot of 3s. Players today are undoubtably more skilled in almost every aspect of the game, including defense, as it's a heck of a lot more difficult to defend a modern NBA offense than it was the isolation and post up heavy game of the 90s.

But it's hard to admit that players of a league that you're frustrated with now are better than the heroes of your childhood that people have a ton of love and nostalgia for, I get that.
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Re: Curry & Harden would've averaged 40 a game in the 90's. Change my mind 

Post#80 » by Danny1616 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:36 pm

Curry would have exploited the **** out of 90s defenses and they wouldn't have a clue what to do.

Imagine these slow ass big men of the 1990s trying to guard Curry on a pick and roll.

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