NBA with Relegation/Promotion

[gom]

Greetings!

As both a long-time NBA and soccer (Flamengo & Brazil) fan, I often wonder whether relegation/promotion would improve competition in the NBA. One problem I see is that the teams are both supposedly competitors and a closed cooperative organization, but perhaps a new team that enters can buy the shares of the teams being relegated. What I envision is a series B, which could consist of G-League teams. The two finalists (or even 4) would rise into the NBA, and the two worst teams of the NBA would be relegated.

Teams would then be required to do more than make a half-hearted attempt to win, because no team wants to be relegated. One issue I see is that top picks are not going to want to be drafted by teams destined for the G-League, and I wonder whether their pick(s) could be postponed until they achieve promotion.

Thoughts?

[J_T]

One issue I see

Really? That's the only issue you see?

[Saint Lazarus]

No

[gom]

Well, it seems to work everywhere else. Wouldn't it be better to see a scrappy team fight its way out of the G-League and achieve the right to play on NBA courts rather than just inheriting the privilege, year-after-year, even when they cannot win 20 games a season?

[TheFinishSniper]

No.

[DCasey91]

I think the better idea is to emulate the Majors domestic development system (AAA, AA, A).

Make it two leagues Super G league and G league where all the best young talent gets to mature the right way and please make it legit from teaching/philosophy and contracts involved all the way down to recruiting and coaching. Sign grizzly vets, and experienced fringe players who aren’t getting playing time.
This is very important. Don’t know what they teach the kids but some shouldn’t even be in the league imo. They are just not ready yet.

Make the list 20 (12 and 8 reserves) per team. Max 2 call up, 2 brought down when submitting team lists on game day. There’ll actually be less dilution if you do it the right way. Because the 12 is the 12 of the best that you have at your disposal. It’ll separate itself, breeds in house and outside great competition for spots. Because instead of cutting the list down it’s like here’s the 20, and dudes by nature will feel the heat of the ability/talent is close. Also this is where the hard work comes into play.

I’m a lotto pick look at me

Well this person is a 2nd rounder and is giving you the business this ain’t high school anymore we are fighting for starting list spots.

I still take the G League with a grain of salt because the pressure and professionalism isn’t there imo. At least with College you have do or die games and legitimate pressure to perform relative to your draft rank and international is no kids allowed play for keeps. Essentially make it real with consequences it’ll be more cutthroat. 1-2 years you’ll still get a good contract if you have the ability but it’s not something to be comfortable with.

Someone like Haslem would be gonesky
And someone like Poku will be tested
A prospect like Wiggins would get a dose of reality quicker
Someone like Beasley there’ll be others to jump at the chance to take his spot from his own misdemeanors

Other elite sports youngins earn their dues much more than NBA. Much more Luka type battle harden types that have seen real stuff that vets allude too.

Makes it interesting then say a Caruso vs a Bargnani two different pathways.

It’s loosens the grip of entitlement. It also loosens the grip on overvalued FA non star contracts. Because there’s many more to pick from.

Players shouldn’t complain (especially non stars or even superstars that don’t have worldwide appeal) you get paid that much because of the hard work your elders put in. Give respect JJ you might not have a job in basketball decades ago. You have generational wealth

But as the saying goes bless he who plants trees whose shade he will never sit.

Less Billy Beane’s and more ready made prospects, the proper pathway wasn’t there/some aren’t mature enough not necessarily in their personality but in their game.

In the end it makes for a far more attractive and competitive product.

[bbalnation]

I think its interesting. I've noticed a fear of making the sport anything like football (soccer). I've drawn a lot of parallels between the two sports, as I'm sure the league has as well.

Relegation itself sounds complicated. I'm a casual footie fan and it makes it a little hard to keep up, so in the past, its deterred me.

As the sport grows, whether nationally or globally, im curious what type of structure the league grows into, whether organically or decidedly.

[Lockdown504090]

Greetings!

As both a long-time NBA and soccer (Flamengo & Brazil) fan, I often wonder whether relegation/promotion would improve competition in the NBA. One problem I see is that the teams are both supposedly competitors and a closed cooperative organization, but perhaps a new team that enters can buy the shares of the teams being relegated. What I envision is a series B, which could consist of G-League teams. The two finalists (or even 4) would rise into the NBA, and the two worst teams of the NBA would be relegated.

Teams would then be required to do more than make a half-hearted attempt to win, because no team wants to be relegated. One issue I see is that top picks are not going to want to be drafted by teams destined for the G-League, and I wonder whether their pick(s) could be postponed until they achieve promotion.

Thoughts?

i like this idea, but i have a few questions about it.. do the b teams and the A teams have similar arena sizes? so that when they move up they can accomodate having more fans in soccer?(sorry for calling it soccer) and do the players earn more and less money when they move up and down divisions?

I know the raptors 905 can only hold 5k people. or would they just switch arenas and they play at scotiabank and the raptors play in the g league arena, thats a way they could do it.

[celticfan42487]

That would make it immensely fun but the reason Reg/Pro doesn't happen in America is because the Owners would have to open themselves up to the risk of their asset suddenly dropping in value endlessly.

I'm sure as a football/soccer fan you're well versed in that as a driving factor for the big teams in Europe trying to create their own league and avoid that potential.

So shortly, it would be amazing for fans and the popularity of the sport would grow tremendously from it and make games way more entertaining and we'd never have to worry about tanking that's for sure (as the incentive to stay in the NBA over the Gleague financially would be so great every owner would do whatever they can to keep one there), alas it'll never happen because no owners now would devalue their asset like that.

It'd be like half of the states in America's homeowners getting together and agreeing that any given year their house could be cut in half value wise and may not regain even 50% of the value it lost for another 20 years. No one is going to agree to risk like that when it isn't already baked into the value for the asset for the price they bought it for. It's impossible.

[celticfan42487]

Greetings!

As both a long-time NBA and soccer (Flamengo & Brazil) fan, I often wonder whether relegation/promotion would improve competition in the NBA. One problem I see is that the teams are both supposedly competitors and a closed cooperative organization, but perhaps a new team that enters can buy the shares of the teams being relegated. What I envision is a series B, which could consist of G-League teams. The two finalists (or even 4) would rise into the NBA, and the two worst teams of the NBA would be relegated.

Teams would then be required to do more than make a half-hearted attempt to win, because no team wants to be relegated. One issue I see is that top picks are not going to want to be drafted by teams destined for the G-League, and I wonder whether their pick(s) could be postponed until they achieve promotion.

Thoughts?

i like this idea, but i have a few questions about it.. do the b teams and the A teams have similar arena sizes? so that when they move up they can accomodate having more fans in soccer?(sorry for calling it soccer) and do the players earn more and less money when they move up and down divisions?

I know the raptors 905 can only hold 5k people. or would they just switch arenas and they play at scotiabank and the raptors play in the g league arena, thats a way they could do it.

Honestly it comes down to advertising money and tv rights (much like the explosion for the NBA salaries is tv rights and little else).

So if the tv stations and advertisers still wanted to pay current $$$ for the current amount of teams and say another 30 additional teams then everything could stay the same.

But they won't, and fans will not watch the second tier league as much as the first. Nor would they come to the games.

So because of the lack of tv revenue the salary cap for that league will have to be a lot less.

For the NBA equivalent of what happens in football that would mean when a team get regulated maybe they trade like a high salary vet for a second rounder because they can't afford him. Or the NBA will do a grace period like it's done before with salary amnesty and let them cut 1 player for free and not have their salary count against the luxury tax or something.

They'd also probably have to stipulate a max losses allowed rule by a franchise if they keep the salary cap because they can't just have like say a NYK team that spent poorly in free agency get regulated by still pay for a 50K arena and accumulate 500 million in debt in the Gleague and expect the other 60 teams to absorb that loss. So at some point operational losses would have to be factored into the luxury tax bill so they can keep the salary cap the same for all teams. (which will result in smaller teams being small for a long time and not wanting to take the risk to get into a big stadium for fear they'll be regulated out of the NBA as soon as they enter it).

[Wolf of Ball St]

I actually feel like the play-in has helped with competition. Does that mean the 10th seed actually has a real shot to beat the number 1 seed, probably not. But the level of competition between seeds 7-12 and the race to 6 has been fun to follow.

Lots of issues with relegation and promotion, more prevalent in revenue and money (in my opinion) than the actual play on the court. But I would welcome that someday. If there were enough markets to maybe get to 40 teams, you could maybe have an A tier and a B tier. Top four in B get automatic promotion, bottom 4 in A relegate each year. Then the remaining 16 in A have a normal playoff. Tier B could also have some sort of playoff (8 or 16 teams) and if the winner comes from someone outside the already promoted top 4, then 5 move up that given year....

...definitely lots of holes in my off-the-top-of-my-head idea. But it could be fun and add excitement.

[kodo]

Teams aren't making a half-hearted attempt to win games. 13 out of 15 Eastern Conference teams are legit playoff teams, the former champions would barely make the play-in tournament at this rate.

Even the bottom teams like Houston & Detroit are losing because they are giving their future core players needed experience. It does no good to win a few games but sit Cade or Green on the bench because they are too young.

There's nothing wrong with the NBA that needs fixing with a relegation system.

[Slacktard]

I think the only North American professional sport that could survive relegation would be the NFL.
I feel like you could change the NFL into Tier 1 and Tier 2 and have Tier 2 play on Thursday and Friday nights, with Tier 1 playing Sunday/MNF game. NFL Comes out of it with more money from TV contracts and they could even have the tier 2 'playoffs' to advance set-up so the determining games happen in the one-week gap between the Conference championship and Super Bowl.

[-Luke-]

I have a hard time to imagine that. The difference between NBA and G-League is just way too big. In European soccer/football (I don't know the situation in South America) the difference between average teams in a 1st division and a good team in the 2nd division isn't thaaaat big. If a team is promoted from the 2nd to the first division (or 3rd to 2nd,....) they are competitive almost all the time with a few new players. The entire system is just so different. Thousands of clubs on multiple levels in soccer/football in Europe (and other continents) while in the United States it's high school teams, college teams, pro league.

Also, aren't most G-League teams basically the "second team" of an NBA team? What happens when lets say the Austin Spurs would be among the two best teams in the G-League and the San Antonio Spurs among the worst two teams in the NBA. Wouldn't they just play with the old San Antonio Roster in Austin then?

I think the NBA has done a good job in recent years to make tanking less attractive. Maybe at some point they'll even the draft lottery odds a little more and reduce the number of games in the regular season so that every single game has more value. I think in a popular sport that has proven itself, it is better to make improvements within the system than to change the whole system.

[toooskies]

Relegation would need to go hand-in-hand with some other concepts from the European football model, such as teams renting out players to other teams (so that relegated teams with large contracts and suddenly smaller incomes can survive, high-level players on relegated teams can play at the highest level, etc.) and the elimination of the draft (because there's no simple way to distribute players to multiple leagues). Or you at least need creative solutions for those problems.

[gom]

I have a hard time to imagine that. The difference between NBA and G-League is just way too big. In European soccer/football (I don't know the situation in South America) the difference between average teams in a 1st division and a good team in the 2nd division isn't thaaaat big. If a team is promoted from the 2nd to the first division (or 3rd to 2nd,....) they are competitive almost all the time with a few new players. The entire system is just so different. Thousands of clubs on multiple levels in soccer/football in Europe (and other continents) while in the United States it's high school teams, college teams, pro league.

Also, aren't most G-League teams basically the "second team" of an NBA team? What happens when lets say the Austin Spurs would be among the two best teams in the G-League and the San Antonio Spurs among the worst two teams in the NBA. Wouldn't they just play with the old San Antonio Roster in Austin then?

I think the NBA has done a good job in recent years to make tanking less attractive. Maybe at some point they'll even the draft lottery odds a little more and reduce the number of games in the regular season so that every single game has more value. I think in a popular sport that has proven itself, it is better to make improvements within the system than to change the whole system.

I really appreciate all the great responses. I don't have answers to the questions raised but enjoy the discussion. To comment on a few things here though:

1. In Brazil, most teams are associations of fans, and the directors of the team are elected. It's pretty awful, but that has more to do with Brazilian leadership (& corruption) than the system. Ideally, I'd like to see a wider range of ownership.

2. The link between G-League affiliates and NBA teams would no longer be a thing. They would have separate ownership. One thought I had is that rather than owning a team, owners would buy into teams, allowing money to move more fluidly to ascending g-league teams.The shares of a team that wins (or has future potential for winning) would increase as a team's prospects increase, and of course, the opposite would be true.

3. The Spurs or Raptors G-League affiliates would be competitors, so it would not be just an exchange of players between the two.

4. The difference between a top team and a bottom team in the league is vast in football/soccer too. It's about the same for average teams too. What really impacts Brazil is a lack of talent. All our best young players move to Europe early in their career and play there in their prime.

Thanks again for your responses!

[gom]

Relegation would need to go hand-in-hand with some other concepts from the European football model, such as teams renting out players to other teams (so that relegated teams with large contracts and suddenly smaller incomes can survive, high-level players on relegated teams can play at the highest level, etc.) and the elimination of the draft (because there's no simple way to distribute players to multiple leagues). Or you at least need creative solutions for those problems.

This is a really important point. Contracts in soccer are renegotiated, and players control their destination more. Teams are also compensated when they lose young talent. I would still keep the draft. It would be essential for teams promoted to get new talent.

[DBCJUN]

Greetings!

As both a long-time NBA and soccer (Flamengo & Brazil) fan, I often wonder whether relegation/promotion would improve competition in the NBA. One problem I see is that the teams are both supposedly competitors and a closed cooperative organization, but perhaps a new team that enters can buy the shares of the teams being relegated. What I envision is a series B, which could consist of G-League teams. The two finalists (or even 4) would rise into the NBA, and the two worst teams of the NBA would be relegated.

Teams would then be required to do more than make a half-hearted attempt to win, because no team wants to be relegated. One issue I see is that top picks are not going to want to be drafted by teams destined for the G-League, and I wonder whether their pick(s) could be postponed until they achieve promotion.

Thoughts?

Would love this.

Would increase the overall competition greatly and add something to root for the bottom x amount of teams. This is the only way to counter taking imo. There would be more cinderella story lines teams climbing from the botom of the G to the NBA.

As for the lottery i would imagine that winning the G-league title results in the #1 draft pick. So it has a chance to stay up once they are promoted. Overal i think this would increase play as the rookies have a chance to mature before they hit the NBA. Basically playing for the G league is playing for draft placement and in the NBA it would be to survive and stay for the big bucks.

Will never happend, but a man can dream.

[queridiculo]

Not this one again... the concept of relegation and promotion is incompatible with the franchise system of US professional sports leagues.

[Tukkerwolf]

Not this one again... the concept of relegation and promotion is incompatible with the franchise system of US professional sports leagues.

It is. But for a Wolves fan it would add so much more fun and intensity. It's mid November and our season is already practically over. The battle against relegation could really add another dimension.