Jimmy Butler ascending to TOP 5 player status

[dshearn]

People can think whatever they want to think, but I just want to thank our good friends from Canada for sharing Lowery with us. The effect lowery has had on Jimmy has been profound. Jimmy always hustled on both side of the floor. but now he is an efficient scorer to boot.

Lowry*

Thanks mate.... I have a coworker named lowery.....sigh.... you should see me with Rogers and Rodgers.....

[LAL1947]

People can think whatever they want to think, but I just want to thank our good friends from Canada for sharing Lowery with us. The effect lowery has had on Jimmy has been profound. Jimmy always hustled on both side of the floor. but now he is an efficient scorer to boot.

Lowry*

Thanks mate.... I have a coworker named lowery.....sigh.... you should see me with Rogers and Rodgers.....

Haha, no problem. Glad you didn't take offense cos I didn't mean any.

[Harry Garris]

Jimmy alway been about it. 2020 playoffs already put him in that status...

He doesn't get recognized because he doesn't jack 3s all game

Should we just gloss over the 2021 playoffs then when Jimmy Butler was terrible? Yes, he had an awesome run the year before but the NBA is a what have you done for me lately league.

[HotelVitale]

Spoiler:

I disagree. Jimmy is peaking now as a player. Last season was probably his best advanced statistical season, so he is showing an uptrend. To say this version of Jimmy isn't a TOP 10 player is disingenuous.

Last season Jimmy was:

3rd in WS/48
4th in BPM
5th in PER
6th in VORP

These are the same stats you praise guys like Jokic and Giannis for, yet it doesn't apply to Jimmy.

I don't mean this as a commentary on this debate--I think it's totally reasonable to see Butler as top-10 the last couple years--but just giving a heads up that these stats are all pretty simple stat-crunching and are superficial-ish. That's why you end up with e.g. Vucevic tied with Butler in VORP in 2020, Bam having about the same win shares as Butler, Zion beating Butler in PER, etc. (I'd also add the while Butler was technically 3-6 in all these stats like you said, he was in the same pack as the top-10 or -12 in most of them).

Again not meant as a knock and they are useful stats, just pointing out that they're basically saying he produced good volume on good efficiency and that's it. Also worth noting that the stats that do some simple calculating on/off impact had him a little lower: RPM had Butler at #21 in 2020, RAPTOR had him at 15. Could poke holes in those too though.

I'm just saying these metrics are constantly used to praise Jokic and Giannis, yet gets dismissed for Jimmy. Those metrics have some value to them if used in the proper context. I usually like to adjust for roles within the team when looking at these numbers. A player that is his team offensive hub would still hold greater value than a second or third option scorer even if they had similar PER for example. Guys like Montrezl Harrell that are hyper efficient scorers and rebounders are going to thrive with these metrics, but they aren't their team's offensive hub compared to someone like Jimmy. Their load isn't as much and they aren't gameplanned as much against opposing defenses.

Sure, but you probably want to argue up and not down. If people are making superficial arguments that you don't like to prop up e.g. Doncic, throwing back the same arguments is going to keep the discussion on those more superficial terms. I'm definitely up for an argument that Butler has been top-5 the last couple years but think I have some good reasons to be skeptical of that, and quoting those stats doesn't address them.

Also for what it's worth recent Jokic and Giannis have totally destroyed those categories. Jokic last year had a VORP of 8.6--and the next best person was at 5.5. I.e. the difference between him and the #2 guy was the difference between the likes of Giannis, Curry, Dame and guys like Terry Rozier, Bogdan, and John Collins. Year before that Giannis had the same thing, and his BPM was literally 2.5 times what guys like Butler had.

[Hipster Doofus]

Methinks not.

[BBallFreak]

Jimmy is top 10 for sure this season, but I'll caution this with three caveats:

1) It's early. We're 16 games in. A lot can happen, and he's already missed two games. OP has a very obvious habit of Heat related hot takes that are, generally, too grandiose. This is one of them. Jimmy is great but not top 3. Go with the top 5 you originally listed. That's closer to accurate.

2) The eye test really holds Jimmy back from being higher than top 10. He's a great player, don't get me wrong, but you're always going to lose out to guys who do it with more style.

3) I can't stress this enough, but the top 10 doesn't consist of 10 players only. It consists of about 15. How is that possible, you ask? Because these guys, save for the top, are all so close together that truly separating them isn't possible. We should be looking at things in tiers. Jimmy is clearly on that second tier, grouped right in with several guys.

I mean no disrespect to the OP but top 5 is a maybe. Top 3? Absolutely not.

[UcanUwill]

He ain't better than Giannis, Durant, Curry, Jokic and Doncic if we're talking about first 15 games

Jimmy 10.1 BPM | .333 WS/48 | 29.8 PER
Doncic 3.3 BPM | .093 WS/48 | 21.8 PER

per 100 poss
Jimmy: 36.0 points | 62.9% TS
Doncic: 35.3 points | 52.0% TS

In what world has Doncic been better than Jimmy this season?

Doncic has to be the most overrated player by GMs and media right now. There's an actual Balkan superstar out there that the media should be salivating over, but it ain't Doncic.

Doncic is one of those guys where you can tell is capable of much more than what hes currently showing. If he hits hot streak, we arent talking about top 5 with him, we are talking #1. I dont think hes overrated, his production in reg season probably is tho.

[UcanUwill]

Lowry*

Thanks mate.... I have a coworker named lowery.....sigh.... you should see me with Rogers and Rodgers.....

Haha, no problem. Glad you didn't take offense cos I didn't mean any.

English language is stupid, you and a letter to a name and it doesnt change pronounciation, wtf Been speaking well for over 10 years, but man English is weird.

[MAQ]

Jimmy alway been about it. 2020 playoffs already put him in that status...

He doesn't get recognized because he doesn't jack 3s all game

Should we just gloss over the 2021 playoffs then when Jimmy Butler was terrible? Yes, he had an awesome run the year before but the NBA is a what have you done for me lately league.

As a Bulls fan I've got nothing but respect for Butler. That said, the way he plays offense with such brute force, I think his game is going to fall off a cliff when it does go. Will not be a steady decline.

I thought last year's playoffs were the start of that decline. But I am willing to write it off due to the fact that he played ball for a whole year straight.

[Impuniti]

Jimmy 10.1 BPM | .333 WS/48 | 29.8 PER
Doncic 3.3 BPM | .093 WS/48 | 21.8 PER

per 100 poss
Jimmy: 36.0 points | 62.9% TS
Doncic: 35.3 points | 52.0% TS

In what world has Doncic been better than Jimmy this season?

Doncic has to be the most overrated player by GMs and media right now. There's an actual Balkan superstar out there that the media should be salivating over, but it ain't Doncic.

Doncic is one of those guys where you can tell is capable of much more than what hes currently showing. If he hits hot streak, we arent talking about top 5 with him, we are talking #1. I dont think hes overrated, his production in reg season probably is tho.

I don't give 2 craps about ifs when there are people out there that are actually doing it. And he isn't top 5, nor does he have a case for it (yet).

[dygaction]

Is Jimmy back to top 5 status after this season?

[SelfishPlayer]

Lol, Jimmy Butler always looks like a try hard when he plays against real special talents like Kawhi and Lebron. I remember Kawhi forced the Sixers to switch Ben Simmons onto guarding him for the rest of the series after he quickly made shot after shot against the defense of the short armed Jimmy Butler.

[zimpy27]

Jimmy is always underrated.

[Swish1906]

I will never understand how he is able to always get the FT for supersoft contact. Always

[Dupp]

Absolutely not. Hes not even top 10, and never has been.

Lol

[LordCovington33]

Jimmy alway been about it. 2020 playoffs already put him in that status...

He doesn't get recognized because he doesn't jack 3s all game

Should we just gloss over the 2021 playoffs then when Jimmy Butler was terrible? Yes, he had an awesome run the year before but the NBA is a what have you done for me lately league.

wtf
Why are you ignoring these playoffs?

Edit: ignore (old thread and never saw the date)
Bumping old threads can be problematic haha

[TheSheriff]

I will never understand how he is able to always get the FT for supersoft contact. Always

Harden and Giannis are sitting at home wondering why they don’t get these calls In the playoffs.

[dygaction]

I will never understand how he is able to always get the FT for supersoft contact. Always

Imagine if Jokic and Doncic get this kind of whistle