Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022

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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#121 » by warriorschamps » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:58 pm

He should. Then again he should of won MVP in 2017, 2019 & 2021 imo. Some folks were picking GSW not to be a top 4 team this year. No one picked GSW to win the title in 2015. So as great as GSW has been for a decade now in some ways Steph & GSW still haven't gotten full credit for what they have done.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#122 » by JujitsuFlip » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:13 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Kinda hard to use a sample of 15 possessions to draw a conclusion. That puts him barely in the top 100 in total iso defensive possessions.

Pick & Roll Ball Handler - 92.2 percentile and on 31 possessions. Still not a lot of data.

Spot up - 93rd

Off screen 97.6

But anyway almost all getting this granular at this point does it create a lot of noise.

I'm well aware it is a small sample size but the whole thread is predicated on OP claiming Steph has been a phenomenal ISO defender this season which means he should make either all defensive team. The stats do not reflect this claim, I can only operate within the parameters given. OP's method of just going into the box score and looking at the opposing PG's raw FG% then saying Steph locked them up is not a valid way to measure how well Steph is doing as an ISO defender through 16 games.

Sidebar, gotta make sure you're toggling that offensive/defensive filter like I told bbalnation when I gave him the link. You just provided us with Steph's offensive numbers off screen play types, which we all know he is phenomenal at. Kerr's offense fits him like a glove, we all know this.

Through 16 games, Steph's defensive breakdown by play type is...

Iso: 4.5 percentile on 14.4 possessios

PnR ball handler: 92.2 percentile on 30.4 possessions

Spot up: 93.0 percentile on 60.8 possessions

Off screen: does not qualify (not enough data)

Transition: does not qualify (not enough data)

Post up: does not qualify (not enough data)

PnR roll man: does not qualify (not enough data)

Hand off: does not qualify (not enough data)

Cut: purely an offensive metric

Put back: no statistics are currently available


Weird, I 100% did make sure I toggled back to defense each time. One of the many reasons I hate NBA.com's site. Great data...awful tool to present it.
I did the same thing with handoffs when I first looked at it lol site is very glitchy/buggy for sure, I had to press it a bunch of times for it to switch.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#123 » by WESCO » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:18 am

Currys D today was insane. On ball off ball he was everywhere.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#124 » by DroseReturnChi » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:39 am

Big J wrote:
dockingsched wrote:This is an insult to true elite defenders like Alex Caruso.


Caruso got absolutely cooked when he tried guarding Curry.


what does that has to do with curry who gets his ankle broken in every possession? nobody can guard steph just like mj cant guard AI.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#125 » by INKtastic » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:56 am

Curry is leading the league in DWS and DRTG. How did that happen? I filtered playing at least 10 games and playing at least 30 minutes/game. I was looking at where Mobley ranked (pretty close to the top) and noticed Curry was at the top of both lists.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*G*10:MIN*GE*30&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*G*10:MIN*GE*30
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#126 » by TwoStarz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:03 am

INKtastic wrote:Curry is leading the league in DWS and DRTG. How did that happen? I filtered playing at least 10 games and playing at least 30 minutes/game. I was looking at where Mobley ranked (pretty close to the top) and noticed Curry was at the top of both lists.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*G*10:MIN*GE*30&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*G*10:MIN*GE*30

I’m more surprised DLO is second. How reliable can this stat really be
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#127 » by JujitsuFlip » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:27 am

INKtastic wrote:Curry is leading the league in DWS and DRTG. How did that happen? I filtered playing at least 10 games and playing at least 30 minutes/game. I was looking at where Mobley ranked (pretty close to the top) and noticed Curry was at the top of both lists.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=GP*G*10:MIN*GE*30&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*G*10:MIN*GE*30

Because individual defensive rating isn't a great statistic, tbh. Individual defensive ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good per minute at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute... Essentially the metric has a whole lot of noise. Furthermore, given the applied filters, about 80% of the NBA has been filtered out.

DWS is based on defensive rating, so that right there should tell you something. It compares a players individual defensive rating to the league average and gives a player credit based on the number of minutes played and kind of divides this share over a teams number of wins. If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team, he will have a high number of defensive win shares.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#128 » by lars_rosenberg » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:56 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team, he will have a high number of defensive win shares.


If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team maybe he's not bad at defense after all, don't you think?

I totally agree individual defensive metrics are flawed, but defense is a team effort so it's really hard to extrapolate individual impact in general.
If a player is bad on defense he's going to be exploited whenever possible, so playing a lot of minutes and still having good defensive metrics is a good thing.

What you can't do is comparing defensive ratings for players in different teams and assume they're on the same scale. So yeah, saying Curry is first in Def rating is not very useful, but at least we know he's doing a very good job on defense, that given his team's record makes him a legit candidate for All defensive team.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#129 » by Impuniti » Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:22 pm

lars_rosenberg wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team, he will have a high number of defensive win shares.


If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team maybe he's not bad at defense after all, don't you think?

I totally agree individual defensive metrics are flawed, but defense is a team effort so it's really hard to extrapolate individual impact in general.
If a player is bad on defense he's going to be exploited whenever possible, so playing a lot of minutes and still having good defensive metrics is a good thing.

What you can't do is comparing defensive ratings for players in different teams and assume they're on the same scale. So yeah, saying Curry is first in Def rating is not very useful, but at least we know he's doing a very good job on defense, that given his team's record makes him a legit candidate for All defensive team.

He's not doing a good job, I don't know why some Warrior fans are humble about it to try to seem objective. He's legitimately been elite defensively this year, you don't even need to look at any stats to see it.

Saying that, I would pay good money to understand how he went from solid on ball to good team defender to an elite one in 1 summer when he's 33 years old. It legitimately doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#130 » by TwoStarz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:08 pm

Impuniti wrote:
lars_rosenberg wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team, he will have a high number of defensive win shares.


If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team maybe he's not bad at defense after all, don't you think?

I totally agree individual defensive metrics are flawed, but defense is a team effort so it's really hard to extrapolate individual impact in general.
If a player is bad on defense he's going to be exploited whenever possible, so playing a lot of minutes and still having good defensive metrics is a good thing.

What you can't do is comparing defensive ratings for players in different teams and assume they're on the same scale. So yeah, saying Curry is first in Def rating is not very useful, but at least we know he's doing a very good job on defense, that given his team's record makes him a legit candidate for All defensive team.

He's not doing a good job, I don't know why some Warrior fans are humble about it to try to seem objective. He's legitimately been elite defensively this year, you don't even need to look at any stats to see it.

Saying that, I would pay good money to understand how he went from solid on ball to good team defender to an elite one in 1 summer when he's 33 years old. It legitimately doesn't make any sense.

Warriors fans have been really doing the "humble, conservative dance" since 2019. I think being the overwhelming favorites and villain's for the 3 years before that really took its toll.

Ya'll some of the least confident fan base around here, from what I've seen, and its odd because ya'll have Curry. Go figure...

Curry has almost always been a neutral to above average defender (at worst!) and this year he has been elite at the guard position. There is no shame in saying that. You can get better on that end as you get more experienced and better at reading offenses.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#131 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:33 pm

TwoStarz wrote:
Impuniti wrote:
lars_rosenberg wrote:
If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team maybe he's not bad at defense after all, don't you think?

I totally agree individual defensive metrics are flawed, but defense is a team effort so it's really hard to extrapolate individual impact in general.
If a player is bad on defense he's going to be exploited whenever possible, so playing a lot of minutes and still having good defensive metrics is a good thing.

What you can't do is comparing defensive ratings for players in different teams and assume they're on the same scale. So yeah, saying Curry is first in Def rating is not very useful, but at least we know he's doing a very good job on defense, that given his team's record makes him a legit candidate for All defensive team.

He's not doing a good job, I don't know why some Warrior fans are humble about it to try to seem objective. He's legitimately been elite defensively this year, you don't even need to look at any stats to see it.

Saying that, I would pay good money to understand how he went from solid on ball to good team defender to an elite one in 1 summer when he's 33 years old. It legitimately doesn't make any sense.

Warriors fans have been really doing the "humble, conservative dance" since 2019. I think being the overwhelming favorites and villain's for the 3 years before that really took its toll.

Ya'll some of the least confident fan base around here, from what I've seen, and its odd because ya'll have Curry. Go figure...

Curry has almost always been a neutral to above average defender (at worst!) and this year he has been elite at the guard position. There is no shame in saying that. You can get better on that end as you get more experienced and better at reading offenses.


He was a well above average off ball player....on defense. His lack of size of course limited him there, wasn't like he could read a play and rotate to the rim and alter a shot. But take that skill and you remove rules that prevented defenders from getting physical, well defense just got way easier to play for the Curry's of the world. They dumbed down defense for those who lacked some foot speed.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#132 » by TwoStarz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:51 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:
Impuniti wrote:He's not doing a good job, I don't know why some Warrior fans are humble about it to try to seem objective. He's legitimately been elite defensively this year, you don't even need to look at any stats to see it.

Saying that, I would pay good money to understand how he went from solid on ball to good team defender to an elite one in 1 summer when he's 33 years old. It legitimately doesn't make any sense.

Warriors fans have been really doing the "humble, conservative dance" since 2019. I think being the overwhelming favorites and villain's for the 3 years before that really took its toll.

Ya'll some of the least confident fan base around here, from what I've seen, and its odd because ya'll have Curry. Go figure...

Curry has almost always been a neutral to above average defender (at worst!) and this year he has been elite at the guard position. There is no shame in saying that. You can get better on that end as you get more experienced and better at reading offenses.


He was a well above average off ball player....on defense. His lack of size of course limited him there, wasn't like he could read a play and rotate to the rim and alter a shot. But take that skill and you remove rules that prevented defenders from getting physical, well defense just got way easier to play for the Curry's of the world. They dumbed down defense for those who lacked some foot speed.

Even if you can't rotate and contest a shot at the paint, the mere fact of rotating is HUGE. Steph rotates everywhere (except for the odd lapses at times) and this helps create the chaos that Golden State thrives off of. Steph is nearly always in the right place at the right time, regardless of his size. Maybe he rotates to the rim and swipes down at the ball causing a steal, or takes a charge? There are more than one ways of mucking up a teams offense and it usually starts with getting in the way, some how some way. People here are WAY to fixated on size IMO.

Notice how I said elite for a guard, because no guard is a rotating over altering shots at the rim...
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#133 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:52 pm

TwoStarz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:Warriors fans have been really doing the "humble, conservative dance" since 2019. I think being the overwhelming favorites and villain's for the 3 years before that really took its toll.

Ya'll some of the least confident fan base around here, from what I've seen, and its odd because ya'll have Curry. Go figure...

Curry has almost always been a neutral to above average defender (at worst!) and this year he has been elite at the guard position. There is no shame in saying that. You can get better on that end as you get more experienced and better at reading offenses.


He was a well above average off ball player....on defense. His lack of size of course limited him there, wasn't like he could read a play and rotate to the rim and alter a shot. But take that skill and you remove rules that prevented defenders from getting physical, well defense just got way easier to play for the Curry's of the world. They dumbed down defense for those who lacked some foot speed.

Even if you can't rotate and contest a shot at the paint, the mere fact of rotating is HUGE. Steph rotates everywhere (except for the odd lapses at times) and this helps create the chaos that Golden State thrives off of. Steph is nearly always in the right place at the right time, regardless of his size.

Notice how I said elite for a guard, because no guard is a rotating over altering shots at the rim...


Sure they do. Wade for example was famous for that. Curry's a zero in that area, plenty of bigger guards are pretty ok at that.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#134 » by TwoStarz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:55 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
He was a well above average off ball player....on defense. His lack of size of course limited him there, wasn't like he could read a play and rotate to the rim and alter a shot. But take that skill and you remove rules that prevented defenders from getting physical, well defense just got way easier to play for the Curry's of the world. They dumbed down defense for those who lacked some foot speed.

Even if you can't rotate and contest a shot at the paint, the mere fact of rotating is HUGE. Steph rotates everywhere (except for the odd lapses at times) and this helps create the chaos that Golden State thrives off of. Steph is nearly always in the right place at the right time, regardless of his size.

Notice how I said elite for a guard, because no guard is a rotating over altering shots at the rim...


Sure they do. Wade for example was famous for that. Curry's a zero in that area, plenty of bigger guards are pretty ok at that.

Okay so you gave me an example of one shooting guard that was good at blocking shots and this is somehow suppose to support the argument that "guards should be altering shots at the rim"? How many other guards in NBA history have done that? Again, there are ways to contest at the rim without necessarily blocking shots or attempting too, all while this is NEVER a guards main responsibility, so I'm not really sure how much weight this even holds to his defensive contributions.

But sure, Curry is a near zero is altering and blocking shots at the rim. You did say Curry was well above average so I'm not really even sure what we are arguing. Seems we are in agreement for the most part.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#135 » by WarriorGM » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:57 pm

Steph did say that having GPII on the team and seeing how great he was on defense has been a bit of an inspiration.

It must come as somewhat of a shock to people that the change of emphasis in the defensive rules has had Steph being one of the main beneficiaries. Makes for interesting fodder in league vs. Steph conspiracy theories.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#136 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:00 pm

TwoStarz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:Even if you can't rotate and contest a shot at the paint, the mere fact of rotating is HUGE. Steph rotates everywhere (except for the odd lapses at times) and this helps create the chaos that Golden State thrives off of. Steph is nearly always in the right place at the right time, regardless of his size.

Notice how I said elite for a guard, because no guard is a rotating over altering shots at the rim...


Sure they do. Wade for example was famous for that. Curry's a zero in that area, plenty of bigger guards are pretty ok at that.

Okay so you gave me an example of one shooting guard that was good at blocking shots and this is somehow suppose to support the argument that "guards should be altering shots at the rim"? How many other guards in NBA history have done that? Again, there are ways to contest at the rim without necessarily blocking shots or attempting too, all while this is NEVER a guards main responsibility, so I'm not really sure how much weight this even holds to his defensive contributions.

But sure, Curry is a near zero is altering and blocking shots at the rim. You did say Curry was well above average so I'm not really even sure what we are arguing. Seems we are in agreement for the most part.


I made no such arguments. I was helping quantify Curry's off ball value. Basketball is after all possitionless, you don't get to be "good for a..." you're just judged as a defender.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#137 » by TwoStarz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:05 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Sure they do. Wade for example was famous for that. Curry's a zero in that area, plenty of bigger guards are pretty ok at that.

Okay so you gave me an example of one shooting guard that was good at blocking shots and this is somehow suppose to support the argument that "guards should be altering shots at the rim"? How many other guards in NBA history have done that? Again, there are ways to contest at the rim without necessarily blocking shots or attempting too, all while this is NEVER a guards main responsibility, so I'm not really sure how much weight this even holds to his defensive contributions.

But sure, Curry is a near zero is altering and blocking shots at the rim. You did say Curry was well above average so I'm not really even sure what we are arguing. Seems we are in agreement for the most part.


I made no such arguments. I was helping quantify Curry's off ball value. Basketball is after all possitionless, you don't get to be "good for a..." you're just judged as a defender.

Right, cause five 7 footers share the court together. Despite being position less, both teams on the floor usually have some semblance of a guard player (these guys are usually not 7 footers) and they should judged according to their positions. If you take curry off the floor, you replacing him with another 7 footer or a guard? So if he is one of the best at his position and size, how is that not a positive, but instead a negative somehow?

I mean no matter how badly you might want to believe basketball is positionless, there are still defining positions for players such as guard, wing/forward, and "Bigs" and it has A LOT to do with their positioning around and on the court.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#138 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:31 pm

TwoStarz wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
TwoStarz wrote:Okay so you gave me an example of one shooting guard that was good at blocking shots and this is somehow suppose to support the argument that "guards should be altering shots at the rim"? How many other guards in NBA history have done that? Again, there are ways to contest at the rim without necessarily blocking shots or attempting too, all while this is NEVER a guards main responsibility, so I'm not really sure how much weight this even holds to his defensive contributions.

But sure, Curry is a near zero is altering and blocking shots at the rim. You did say Curry was well above average so I'm not really even sure what we are arguing. Seems we are in agreement for the most part.


I made no such arguments. I was helping quantify Curry's off ball value. Basketball is after all possitionless, you don't get to be "good for a..." you're just judged as a defender.

Right, cause five 7 footers share the court together. Despite being position less, both teams on the floor usually have some semblance of a guard player (these guys are usually not 7 footers) and they should judged according to their positions. If you take curry off the floor, you replacing him with another 7 footer or a guard? So if he is one of the best at his position and size, how is that not a positive, but instead a negative somehow?

I mean no matter how badly you might want to believe basketball is positionless, there are still defining positions for players such as guard, wing/forward, and "Bigs" and it has A LOT to do with their positioning around and on the court.


There are some roles, there are no positions. Draymond Green on offense runs point in the half court. He isn't a guard. The warrior's system is a motion offense using high post passing to establish movement and their defense is a switch everything rotation heavy system.

In the NBA all else equal you want to be as tall as possible, there are just a lack of tall guys on the planet earth to fill out rosters and there are freaks like Curry who are great despite their lack of size (not that Curry isn't a near top 1% guys in terms of height).
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#139 » by JujitsuFlip » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:25 pm

lars_rosenberg wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team, he will have a high number of defensive win shares.


If a player plays a lot of minutes on a great defensive team maybe he's not bad at defense after all, don't you think?

I totally agree individual defensive metrics are flawed, but defense is a team effort so it's really hard to extrapolate individual impact in general.
If a player is bad on defense he's going to be exploited whenever possible, so playing a lot of minutes and still having good defensive metrics is a good thing.

What you can't do is comparing defensive ratings for players in different teams and assume they're on the same scale. So yeah, saying Curry is first in Def rating is not very useful, but at least we know he's doing a very good job on defense, that given his team's record makes him a legit candidate for All defensive team.

Or maybe he is one of the best explosive offensive weapons in the league and that is why he plays 34 MPG. Highly doubt Kerr is playing Steph for his defensive ability lol

I mean yes and no. Hiding guys on defense is a real thing. I've not looked it up but the few games I've watch, the Warriors do not always play strictly man to man, this is another way to help those who are not lockdown defenders.

I do not believe it does make him a legit candidate for either all defensive team. There are 4 spots, regardless of how many times people say Steph is an elite defender in this thread, it does not make it so.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#140 » by benhillboy » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:32 pm

Please stop bashing metrics that attempt to quantify defense. Over the years I’ve found net rating and defesnive box to be a very accurate approximation, whether I’m using it to supplement what I’ve seen or trying to get a sense of a player I haven’t.

So yes any “PG” with a higher defensive rating than CP3 should be seriously considered.

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