Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022

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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#41 » by Duke4life831 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:41 am

a8bil wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
a8bil wrote: What? Curry is always near the top in steals each year. You know as a GSW fan when a player get steals through gambles and poor defense. That is not Curry. He gets them while playing very good team defense...and perhaps avg. to good on ball defense. Curry is not a Wow defender, but neither is he an average defender.


Steals is a meaningless stat. You can be a great on ball defender and get very little steals, you can be a horrible on ball defender and get lots of steals. The steal stat means nothing. Just like the blocked shots stat means nothing about how good a big man is at defense.

And ya I think Curry is a solid average to above average defender. I dont think that is a crazy take at all. Just to throw out some guards that are better defenders than Curry

Smart
Payton
Jrue
Lonzo
Caruso
CP3
Thybulle
Butler
Dejonte Murray
Dort

That is 10 guys off the top of my head that are all better defenders than Curry. Again All Defense level defenders are the kind of defenders that make you say "wow" when watching them on defense. That isn't Curry. Again this isn't me saying Curry sucks on defense either. I think Curry is a solid average to above average defender. I think that is a pretty reasonable take.
I disagree only with your statement that steals are meaningless...steals that are the product of gambles are meaningless, but you know as a GSW fan that Curry's steals are not = Ellis's steals. Curry's are often the finishing playing of great on ball defense. He sees when the playmaker is being frustrated into a bad pass and he steps in front of it for a steal. That's why Klay and Curry have been such a dynamic duo defensively. Klay forces bad passes, Curry makes them pay for it.


Im saying the steal stat is worthless when talking about if a player is a good defensive player or not. Curry is a fundamentally sound defender. I also agree his steals dont come from him gambling that much. That doesnt push him into an all defense level defender or even a really good defender level. The last 6 seasons he is averaging 1.5 steals, so we are talking about something that doesnt impact that many possessions per game. Its also not like ball handlers are terrified about getting their handles picked when Curry is on them.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#42 » by Locrian » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:40 am

Seth is having a good season, but that's a bit of stretch
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#43 » by Lockdown504090 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:11 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
I'm trusting stats over 2 amateur videos with a combined viewership of 10k lol

RJ is not a good defender and never has been in the NBA... *shrug*

Defensive RAPTOR is not aerospace engineering, if you do not understand it, say that, no need to poorly attempt to speak for me.

then you would know that its not a good way to measure if RJ barett is a good defender and you should probably rely more on the film and use that as a support.

What in your opinion is fundamentally flawed about DBPM and dRAPTOR that make them unable to measure RJ's defensive impact accurately?Image

its because of his role defensively. He has the best player all the time, hes going to get scored on. Then theres scheme, which doesnt allow him to get better stats and they match his minutes with the other teams best player, and often run lineups where his job is to play the guy without a lot of help to prevent the star from getting playmaking oppourtunities. Then theres the fact that the guys subbing him are all defenders and thats going to hurt his rating as well. Its just a stupid stat, the knicks have the 8th best defense and the guy with the overwhelming best draptor is derrick rose, who teams are actively looking to get matched up on their best player. Measuring something happening with the ball on offense is one thing, but measuring the absense of something happening(scoring) which defensive metrics want to do in a game with 5 guys and 1 ball isnt the same thing and theyre trying to make it so. 538 doesnt even think DRAPTOR is a serious way of measuring defensive impact and there isnt a coach in the league that even cares.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#44 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:23 pm

SeanieWard wrote:Steph is actually playing really good defense..probably due to him putting on some weight and muscle. He isn't getting pushed around anymore and his effort has been great but I don't know if he can keep this up all season while playing at the level he is offensively. If he does, he should be drug tested lol but as of today I think he should get some all defensive votes from the guard position. He's been really good


It's mostly the new rules, they've dumbed down defense and made it easier to play defense. So you take smart defenders who in the past couldn't get physical and now they can.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#45 » by JujitsuFlip » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:58 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:then you would know that its not a good way to measure if RJ barett is a good defender and you should probably rely more on the film and use that as a support.

What in your opinion is fundamentally flawed about DBPM and dRAPTOR that make them unable to measure RJ's defensive impact accurately?Image

its because of his role defensively. He has the best player all the time, hes going to get scored on. Then theres scheme, which doesnt allow him to get better stats and they match his minutes with the other teams best player, and often run lineups where his job is to play the guy without a lot of help to prevent the star from getting playmaking oppourtunities. Then theres the fact that the guys subbing him are all defenders and thats going to hurt his rating as well. Its just a stupid stat, the knicks have the 8th best defense and the guy with the overwhelming best draptor is derrick rose, who teams are actively looking to get matched up on their best player. Measuring something happening with the ball on offense is one thing, but measuring the absense of something happening(scoring) which defensive metrics want to do in a game with 5 guys and 1 ball isnt the same thing and theyre trying to make it so. 538 doesnt even think DRAPTOR is a serious way of measuring defensive impact and there isnt a coach in the league that even cares.

Essentially there isn't anything fundamentally flawed with either stat, especially when combined, you just do not like that stats do not back-up the eye test?

Which, that is a fine conclusion to come to. Its just the eye test isn't measurable, it's an opinion. Therefore, trying to discredit stats with no real alternative to factually prove your opinion, is not wise.

Sidebar, the Knicks have the 8th best defense by which metric?
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#46 » by bbalnation » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:22 pm

I dont know if the OP is really overreacting?

When I make my speculation on impact, i look at multiple criteria. The warriors are first in defense, despite whoever leads the league in steals (and other stats).

Look who Steph is playing with...

Steph Curry
Jordan Poole
Andrew Wiggins
Draymond Green
Kevin Looney

Someone here just mentioned Gary Payton II for all nba defensive team. The man is averaging 14 minutes a game.

Steph leads that team in minutes with 34. Draymond is next with 29. Damion Lee is a great defender (21 minutes) and Iggy is still a back bone defender despite his decreased quicks (20 minutes).

The West is guard heavy. I see no standout guard defenders on this Warriors team leading the way, or a "everyone does it collectively" mentality. Hes carrying a lot of the load on both sides of the ball this year, and hes not getting the credit.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#47 » by bbalnation » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:25 pm

As a raptor fan ill say that curry is more deserving than Fred VanVleet, imo, and I actually think Fred's having a solid year despite what other raptor fans say lol.

OG on the other hand... nah.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#48 » by Lockdown504090 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:26 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:What in your opinion is fundamentally flawed about DBPM and dRAPTOR that make them unable to measure RJ's defensive impact accurately?Image

its because of his role defensively. He has the best player all the time, hes going to get scored on. Then theres scheme, which doesnt allow him to get better stats and they match his minutes with the other teams best player, and often run lineups where his job is to play the guy without a lot of help to prevent the star from getting playmaking oppourtunities. Then theres the fact that the guys subbing him are all defenders and thats going to hurt his rating as well. Its just a stupid stat, the knicks have the 8th best defense and the guy with the overwhelming best draptor is derrick rose, who teams are actively looking to get matched up on their best player. Measuring something happening with the ball on offense is one thing, but measuring the absense of something happening(scoring) which defensive metrics want to do in a game with 5 guys and 1 ball isnt the same thing and theyre trying to make it so. 538 doesnt even think DRAPTOR is a serious way of measuring defensive impact and there isnt a coach in the league that even cares.

Essentially there isn't anything fundamentally flawed with either stat, especially when combined, you just do not like that stats do not back-up the eye test?

Which, that is a fine conclusion to come to. Its just the eye test isn't measurable, it's an opinion. Therefore, trying to discredit stats with no real alternative to factually prove your opinion, is not wise.

Sidebar, the Knicks have the 8th best defense by which metric?

You realize draymond is 68th in draptor and blake griffin is top 10 right?
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#49 » by timO » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:26 pm

yes, in nba 2k
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#50 » by JN61 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:41 pm

No.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#51 » by atlantabbq99 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:53 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
a8bil wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Steals is a meaningless stat. You can be a great on ball defender and get very little steals, you can be a horrible on ball defender and get lots of steals. The steal stat means nothing. Just like the blocked shots stat means nothing about how good a big man is at defense.

And ya I think Curry is a solid average to above average defender. I dont think that is a crazy take at all. Just to throw out some guards that are better defenders than Curry

Smart
Payton
Jrue
Lonzo
Caruso
CP3
Thybulle
Butler
Dejonte Murray
Dort

That is 10 guys off the top of my head that are all better defenders than Curry. Again All Defense level defenders are the kind of defenders that make you say "wow" when watching them on defense. That isn't Curry. Again this isn't me saying Curry sucks on defense either. I think Curry is a solid average to above average defender. I think that is a pretty reasonable take.
I disagree only with your statement that steals are meaningless...steals that are the product of gambles are meaningless, but you know as a GSW fan that Curry's steals are not = Ellis's steals. Curry's are often the finishing playing of great on ball defense. He sees when the playmaker is being frustrated into a bad pass and he steps in front of it for a steal. That's why Klay and Curry have been such a dynamic duo defensively. Klay forces bad passes, Curry makes them pay for it.


Im saying the steal stat is worthless when talking about if a player is a good defensive player or not. Curry is a fundamentally sound defender. I also agree his steals dont come from him gambling that much. That doesnt push him into an all defense level defender or even a really good defender level. The last 6 seasons he is averaging 1.5 steals, so we are talking about something that doesnt impact that many possessions per game. Its also not like ball handlers are terrified about getting their handles picked when Curry is on them.


This is true. Tony Allen and Jru Holiday never averaged 2.0 steals per game in any season, but by far elite defenders. Its all about opponents' FG%, which Curry is leading in the league right now.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#52 » by BoatsNZones » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:07 pm

No, he will not and should not. He has been very good defensively, not elite. If any guard from the Warriors gets a nod (2nd team) it should be Gary Payton II. I don't care if he only plays 14 MPG, he's the best defensive guard in the NBA and does more in those 14 minutes than even very good defenders do in 30. Thybulle was All NBA 2nd Team D last season in just 20 MPG (and rightfully so).
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#53 » by nybluemeadow » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:14 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:payton vanfleet caruso barett lonzo cp3 bledsoe probably have something to say on this one.

RJ has always been a negative defender and is having his worst season defensively thus far, -2.6 dRAPTOR and -2.5 DBPM.

Outside of him though, all the other guys for sure have a claim.





did the same thing to zach in the game i just watched

Those metrics are bad and you dont even know what draptor means.


Good barret can at least play some decent defense, because he can't shoot for crap. He has the worst jump shot in the NBA. His jump shot is just broken and is in markele fultz territory right now and barret might not even be in the NBA in 2 years.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#54 » by Kobe187 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:16 pm

Curry’s a good defender, he’s so quick and has great stamina, doesn’t take plays off, hustles for loose balls, has fast hands that cause disruption and gets a lot of deflections and steals, only weak point defensively is 1-on-1 iso, especially when teams get the switch on him and bigger players can take advantage of the lack of physical size and strength.

GS does a great job as a team defensively, they’re always moving, quick to switch and help-out teammates. Curry is a good defender but not close to all defensive-team. Green deserves to be on the all defensive team, Wiggins is also a very good defender.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#55 » by a8bil » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:34 pm

Kobe187 wrote:Curry’s a good defender, he’s so quick and has great stamina, doesn’t take plays off, hustles for loose balls, has fast hands that cause disruption and gets a lot of deflections and steals, only weak point defensively is 1-on-1 iso, especially when teams get the switch on him and bigger players can take advantage of the lack of physical size and strength.

GS does a great job as a team defensively, they’re always moving, quick to switch and help-out teammates. Curry is a good defender but not close to all defensive-team. Green deserves to be on the all defensive team, Wiggins is also a very good defender.
Pretty accurate assessment.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#56 » by BoatsNZones » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:47 pm

Kobe187 wrote:Curry’s a good defender, he’s so quick and has great stamina, doesn’t take plays off, hustles for loose balls, has fast hands that cause disruption and gets a lot of deflections and steals, only weak point defensively is 1-on-1 iso, especially when teams get the switch on him and bigger players can take advantage of the lack of physical size and strength.

GS does a great job as a team defensively, they’re always moving, quick to switch and help-out teammates. Curry is a good defender but not close to all defensive-team. Green deserves to be on the all defensive team, Wiggins is also a very good defender.

RE ISO D, I'd just point out that it's a bit overblown in the modern NBA. Unless you're a big who is guarding a classic post-up big, isolations might happen for a player one to three times a week (certain players like Harden will hunt it, but they're often against multiple different players and end up containing some sort of help). I'm looking at last seasons ISO defensive stats on NBA.com (not sure I entirely trust them but it's what I have to work with), and Curry only averaged 0.6 ISO's per game defensively. He ranked in the 93rd percentile though (he's not a 93rd percentile level ISO defender, but it goes to show how much noise you can get in the stat when it happens at such a low rate). Harden is the only guy I've really seen have consistent success on Curry in ISO, and even that has backfired on the Rockets in the post-season at times. And Harden might be the best ISO guard in the game of the past 20 years when you factor in his foul rate.

So while I agree it's generally the weakest part of his defensive game, I think ISO D for guards is generally over-hyped based on just how infrequently it occurs. I'm much more concerned with a player having a high motor and high BBIQ of both his own defensive schemes + the opposing teams tendencies. You basically just want your defenders to have as few leaks as possible while being active/engaged/proactive, and that is what Curry does very well (especially considering just how much energy he has to emit on the other end). Overall just a good, but limited and not great defender.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#57 » by Woodsanity » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:52 pm

nybluemeadow wrote:I think Curry can beat out CP3 for all d-team.

I don't know if Curry can beat out Marcus Smart and Ricky Rubio for 1st all d-team

Curry's star power and wins could get him a few more votes than Smart. We will just see what happens at the end of the season. But for this season, Curry is easily a top 5 defender for PGs.


CP3 is still a good defender and Suns are a good defensive team (top 3) as well. CP3 has better defensive metrics and reputation on d than Curry don't see much of a case tbh.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#58 » by Duke4life831 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:54 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
a8bil wrote: I disagree only with your statement that steals are meaningless...steals that are the product of gambles are meaningless, but you know as a GSW fan that Curry's steals are not = Ellis's steals. Curry's are often the finishing playing of great on ball defense. He sees when the playmaker is being frustrated into a bad pass and he steps in front of it for a steal. That's why Klay and Curry have been such a dynamic duo defensively. Klay forces bad passes, Curry makes them pay for it.


Im saying the steal stat is worthless when talking about if a player is a good defensive player or not. Curry is a fundamentally sound defender. I also agree his steals dont come from him gambling that much. That doesnt push him into an all defense level defender or even a really good defender level. The last 6 seasons he is averaging 1.5 steals, so we are talking about something that doesnt impact that many possessions per game. Its also not like ball handlers are terrified about getting their handles picked when Curry is on them.


This is true. Tony Allen and Jru Holiday never averaged 2.0 steals per game in any season, but by far elite defenders. Its all about opponents' FG%, which Curry is leading in the league right now.


No it’s not. There is no proven stat that shows who’s a great defenders. If we go by opponents FG%

Derrick Rose and Luke Kennard would be 1st team all defense at the guard positions.

This isn’t that hard. Watch Warriors games and tell me Curry is all defense caliber. Watch his defense compared to Payton’s, tell me he’s a better defender than Payton. Then watch a Bulls game and tell me he’s a better defender than Lonzo or Caruso. He’s not. There is a clear difference between the elite defensive guards and Curry.
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#59 » by kazyv » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:58 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Haha like I say on here all the time. When talking about defense there seems to be only 2 options

Player X is All Defense level of a defender
or
Player X is a horrible defender and is a massive liability

There seems to be no middle ground for many when it comes to individual defense.

Curry is a great example of a player that falls within that middle ground. Curry doesnt make a defense better, but he also doesnt make a defense worse, he is an average defender. And when youre as elite of an offensive player as he is, and when you factor in how much energy and effort he puts out on the offensive end with all his off ball movement plus not being an elite athlete. I think its pretty impressive he is a solid average to above average defender.

But ya he's not an all defense kind of defender. This is pretty obvious to watch just from his own team. Watch Draymond on the defensive end, or watch Payton on the defensive end. Those are wow defenders, those are defenders that make big time impacts on the defensive end. That is what an all defense caliber defender looks like.


ofc he makes the defense better. when your star player is also taking charge on defense, you better keep up, or what are you good for anyway? defense is all about effort and curry bringing the effort on defense certainly has an impact beyond his own play
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Re: Will Curry make the All Defensive Team in 2022 

Post#60 » by a8bil » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:05 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Im saying the steal stat is worthless when talking about if a player is a good defensive player or not. Curry is a fundamentally sound defender. I also agree his steals dont come from him gambling that much. That doesnt push him into an all defense level defender or even a really good defender level. The last 6 seasons he is averaging 1.5 steals, so we are talking about something that doesnt impact that many possessions per game. Its also not like ball handlers are terrified about getting their handles picked when Curry is on them.


This is true. Tony Allen and Jru Holiday never averaged 2.0 steals per game in any season, but by far elite defenders. Its all about opponents' FG%, which Curry is leading in the league right now.


No it’s not. There is no proven stat that shows who’s a great defenders. If we go by opponents FG%

Derrick Rose and Luke Kennard would be 1st team all defense at the guard positions.

This isn’t that hard. Watch Warriors games and tell me Curry is all defense caliber. Watch his defense compared to Payton’s, tell me he’s a better defender than Payton. Then watch a Bulls game and tell me he’s a better defender than Lonzo or Caruso. He’s not. There is a clear difference between the elite defensive guards and Curry.


It seems to me that any discussion that treats steals or opponents' FG% as irrelevant has gone hyperbolic. Sure, no single stat tells you who is an elite defender, but all of these stats, in context, are relevant.

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